One thing confuses me about the "stimus"

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time even the UN security council BELIEVED that Sadam was building weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the UN took no action for over 10 years of Saddam ignoring their restrictions (well, other than sending him letters), and many countries refused to join us doesn't change that fact. At the time, we operated with the same intelligence as anyone else. Saddam was an unstable influence in that region and given our dependence on foreign oil, I feel it was quite reasonable at the time.





    Tax cuts to businesses would create far more jobs far faster than this package will. Here's some of what my childrens future income is being pissed away on instead

    $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
    $300 million for grants to combat violence against women
    $2 billion for federal child-care block grants
    $6 billion for university building projects
    $15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    $4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
    $1 billion for community-development block grants
    $4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
    $650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”
    $30 million for Pelosi's endangered mouse

    Do those look like they are crafted to create jobs? economic stimulus? not at all
    I agree they dont. The education and job training will make the US more competetive though. Only the last two piss me off.

    The tax cuts we have had, have not been creating jobs because companies like Wal Mart will use that to increase their bottom line profits. Tax cuts to small and mid size businesses maybe bot not the bulk of the bush tax cuts.


  2. "$20 billion for food stamps"

    Haha

    My buddy said that "while most presidents get their face on money, Obama will get his on food stamps".

    Now, he's not a rascist guy, nor am I. But I got admit....that's funny!
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    I agree they dont. The education and job training will make the US more competetive though. Only the last two piss me off.
    Thats ficticious logic. The educational facilities and training resources already exist - but people don't take advantage of them. Also, the liberals have totally infested the university system, making requirements of philosophy, socialism, etc which just lengthens and raises the expense of college while providing dubious benefit. Then there are also all the useless liberal majors as well, who the poor kids graduate with 40k in student loans and a degree in some bullpoop field that there is no careers in.

    But beyond that, our problem is really in the elementary schools. We've become a nation of pussification - creating the largest generation of worthless sissies ever. Teachers can't use red ink because it might harm a childs tender psyche. Tag being outlawed during recess because some children might find it stressful to watch another child being chased. Grading of A, B, C, D, and "Needs Improvement". Its ridiculous what the liberals and the special interest group called the teachers union have done to the educational system.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Thats ficticious logic. The educational facilities and training resources already exist - but people don't take advantage of them. Also, the liberals have totally infested the university system, making requirements of philosophy, socialism, etc which just lengthens and raises the expense of college while providing dubious benefit. Then there are also all the useless liberal majors as well, who the poor kids graduate with 40k in student loans and a degree in some bullpoop field that there is no careers in.

    But beyond that, our problem is really in the elementary schools. We've become a nation of pussification - creating the largest generation of worthless sissies ever. Teachers can't use red ink because it might harm a childs tender psyche. Tag being outlawed during recess because some children might find it stressful to watch another child being chased. Grading of A, B, C, D, and "Needs Improvement". Its ridiculous what the liberals and the special interest group called the teachers union have done to the educational system.
    I could say similar things about the influence of the far religious right in our schools and in government. But the fact is, neither the far left or the far right represent most of our ideals. but unfortuantely that is who is running the congress.

    A agree with you about the pussifying. I'll be damned if I let my kid whine about any of that ****!

    Great discussion!

    I gotta get crackin on some work though.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    but it will. I've seen it worse than this in the last 30 years, I don't know why everyone is so "chicken little" about it. these things are cyclical in nature.

    There would be plenty of american owned businesses if people didn't expect to have a manufacturing job that paid better than a real estate lawyer like the UAW does.
    True. We did the same thing i the 80's with the saving's and loans industry. However, he's prolly too young to remember that. Other than the slight downturn in the 90's he's never experienced a struggling economy.

    Capitalism works great, but every once in awhile it does stray a bit of course and it has to correct itself. We've been through worse and we'll see worse again, but as in the past this to shall pass. (ok didn't mean to make that sound corny and ryme like that).
    ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE
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  6. Yeah, I have to admit that teaching intelligent design is a joke. Teaching abstinence as a part of sex ed isnt tho

  7. Thanks Copycat for your service. My buddy, actually one of my lifting buddies, is an Airbourne Ranger, hes supposed to be over right now, but he had to stay back for more training. I've heard some stories. My cousin is set to return in April. Got quite a few other friends over there.

    Who cares if there are not bombs there that were supposed to be there to make us look good, or how many uneducated people put "End the War" bumperstickers on their cars? This is called the WAR ON TERROR. If we are going to declare war on terror, as one of the troops on a recent CNN story in Afghanistan stated, we need to combat terror where ever it may be. Remember 9/11.

    Now, that doesn't mean that we just go spend all the money in the world. We need to do our part on the home front. We need to get the economy on track. A government in this country will never be the fix, the system is not set up like that. Realize that the US government is the longest lasting unchanged system in the history of the world, even tho our country is not the oldest or longest lasting. This all goes back the foundation- the founding fathers. They set it up to last, and we need to keep that in mind. Obviously things have changed, but we need to keep those founding priciples. Our government will not (or should not) take care of you, you have to take care of you.

  8. I see things as a version of a Hegelian Dialectic.

    People won't knowingly hand over rights and freedoms, but if:

    Someone creates a chaotic event...the populace react emotionally and ask for help...the powers that be offer "solutions" to the problems they created...these solutions quite often involve the loss of rights and freedoms in the name of patriotism.

  9. like the movie The Siege

  10. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    Now, that doesn't mean that we just go spend all the money in the world. We need to do our part on the home front. We need to get the economy on track. A government in this country will never be the fix, the system is not set up like that. Realize that the US government is the longest lasting unchanged system in the history of the world, even tho our country is not the oldest or longest lasting. This all goes back the foundation- the founding fathers. They set it up to last, and we need to keep that in mind. Obviously things have changed, but we need to keep those founding priciples. Our government will not (or should not) take care of you, you have to take care of you.
    I've highlighted the point I want to address. The US economy, namely the stock market, is cyclical in nature. Since records have been kept documenting the stock market, the economy swings up and then swings down, swings up, then down. It repeats itself. And anytime we have a large upswing, there is a resounding bottom out.

    Within your time frame let me point out the Tech bubble. Tech stocks became way over-valued and eventually the market had to correct itself. A lot of people lost a lot of money. It was the end of the world as we knew it.

    Now to the present. The banks loaned money to people that did not have the means to keep up with the ARM's that they were approved for. And then the banks took these securities and put them in groups or funds. These funds were highly valuated, purchased by many companies banks included. However, the funds themselves weren't actually worth anything. They were drastically overvalued (kind of similar to the tech bubble). Well there was only one possible outcome.

    The people who had taken out loans above their means started to foreclose on their homes. It started in a trickle and eventually became a downpour. This is bad for the banking system because they lose money when someone forecloses. But what really tanked the system is that these over-inflated funds were realized for what they were...empty air. This caused the banks to take a drastic write off. People panicked, the media fed the frenzy, and a large sell-off of stocks began similar to the Great Depression. Now there are companies out there who are fairly valued at $200 a share, trading for $50 a share. For no other reason than people panicked.

    Now it's been drummed up that we are in a recession, that everyone needs to panic. The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling! seems to be the cry heard daily on the news. So people react emotionally, instead of logically working it through their small skulls. Everyone tightens up the wallets. Stops spending the money that they typically spend. This presents a problem for companies that sell product, because now orders have dropped. They have to cut back, laying off employees. More Panic! It's a vicious circle.

    However, companies will lean themselves out. Banks will begin to lend again. People will be forced to be more fiscally responsible. Owning a home will not be a god-given right for everyone anymore, it will be something that you have to save and plan for. Like it was supposed to be. The market will bottom out, the panic will subside, and we will begin the long arduous trek out of the bottom of the cycle we are currently in and five years from now it will be a thing of the past, long forgotten by most, and the economy will once again be on the rise to the crest. And eventually it will return to a bottom.

    It's the nature of capitalism and our market.

  11. By "We" I was refering to the government, not we as the people. We as the people need to learn how to compound our income, and be able to spend more, as you said. I should have cleared that up I guess.

    We, as the people, need to get rid of this entitlement mentality. Like this 'free government money' ad thats staring at me as I type this. This is America, the land of opportunity, not the land of 'we will give you whatever you want'. You get what you work for, you are entitled to nothing. So take care of yourself.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    By "We" I was refering to the government, not we as the people. We as the people need to learn how to compound our income, and be able to spend more, as you said. I should have cleared that up I guess.

    We, as the people, need to get rid of this entitlement mentality. Like this 'free government money' ad thats staring at me as I type this. This is America, the land of opportunity, not the land of 'we will give you whatever you want'. You get what you work for, you are entitled to nothing. So take care of yourself.

  13. Hahahaha. Hes got it worse than anyone. Eeyyy, might as well throw in another half billion plus for a new marine 1. haha

  14. $50 billion extra in food stamps will create new jobs right?

  15. Hey its worth a shot, haha. I can hear him now, "well if they have more food stamps they will have more food. If they have more food they will have more energy and ambition to go out and get a good paying job."

  16. hahahahaha I know. Its so totally retarded. the more comfortable you make people without them having to put out any effort, the less likely they are to put out effort. Its the issue with marginal tax rates. Does the person living in section 8 housing, on food stamps with welfare going to live significantly better taking an $8/hr job? no, so there is no incentive for them to take it.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    Hahahaha. Hes got it worse than anyone. Eeyyy, might as well throw in another half billion plus for a new marine 1. haha
    New Marine 1? Hell, he's got 5 of them already and those are just the one's that work White side. I work next door to those guys.
    ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE
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  18. I think its sad, but many people like to brag about the fact that our welfare system puts people in better living conditions, on average, than what the middle class of Europe lives in. Based on standard of livings and so on.

  19. Interesting ad.
    I live in WIlliamsport PA lol!

    Here, a good paying job is considered in the 20,000 per year range.
    We have 4 close family members laid off, and I have four friends in the region who were laid off in the last 4 months. Its a pretty depressing area.

    I was told that mayor used to try to sell the fact that our area is used to working for small wages to try and persuade new companies to come here. The cost of living is reasonable, but most people I know who work an honest living have an incredibly tough time keeping up with expenses. The average pay for a hard days work has stayed the same for so many years and the cost of everything has gone up.

    I know people who are working who are getting assistance. Some people really do need it. It does piss me off all the people living in govt housing though with 3 kids and who will not work. How do you seperate getting help to those who really need it and those too lazy to help themselves.

    Fortunately, I am self employed , partner an llc a new business with 3 others and look to make about $30,000 this year. Only my wife is stuck underpaid and underappreciated and overworked with horrible benefits. As we speak we are a month behind on everything except our mortgage. had a furnace break and pipes froze and burst setting us back.

    So I think "The sky is falling" perception is from the perspective of where you are standing and how you see it affect family and friends. If you're doing alright, then I guess its easy to say "Calm down, everything cycles". I ,personally know a lot of people who feel like they are in deep **** and they dont even have to watch the news.

    The grant that ad is talking about has been around...forever. Its about the grants govt will give you for starting a small business in an underserved area to try and get the areas to grow. From what I understand, the criteria is pretty steep and you have to have a badass business plan to even be considered and only a select few are given out.
    That Ad capatilizes in public interest over the headlines. And in doing so, probably gets people worked up too, about things that are rare and nothing to get worked up about.

  20. [QUOTE=edgebsl;1814221]"$20 billion for food stamps"

    Haha

    My buddy said that "while most presidents get their face on money, Obama will get his on food stamps".

    Now, he's not a rascist guy, nor am I. But I got admit....that's funny![/QUOTE]

    Not to start a racial dispute, but would he have said something to that effect if the president was white. I think you yourself felt it seemed racist, hence your statement of defence. I am one for good comedy, and don't usually read into things, but that comment did spark my interest. Now as I digress, I think the thought that the stimulus would create jobs (especially in the auto industry) is misguided. With the economy as it is now, and so many auto workers laid off, the inventory will still be full when this gets resolved. Do you think they will make more cars with so much still sitting on the lot?
    As a military minded person, and a long military career, I say we needed to make a stand for what happened on 911. War will always spark a lot of negative response, whether economically or morally other for whatever people feel is the wrong reason for it. Now I do believe it is time to come home. I have seen enough of my buddies killed (remember somalia). Casuality of war is iminent, but once again, I feel it is time to come home.
    Last edited by ABNRanger; 02-21-2009 at 08:39 PM.

  21. [QUOTE=ABNRanger;1819193]
    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    "$20 billion for food stamps"

    Haha

    My buddy said that "while most presidents get their face on money, Obama will get his on food stamps".

    Now, he's not a rascist guy, nor am I. But I got admit....that's funny![/QUOTE]

    Not to start a racial dispute, but would he have said something to that effect if the president was white. I think you yourself felt it seemed racist, hence your statement of defence. I am one for good comedy, and don't usually read into things, but that comment did spark my interest. Now as I digress, I think the thought that the stimulus would create jobs (especially in the auto industry) is misguided. With the economy as it is now, and so many auto workers laid off, the inventory will still be full when this gets resolved. Do you think they will make more cars with so much still sitting on the lot?
    As a milirary minded person, I say we needed to make a stand for what happened on 911. War will always spark a lot of negative response, whether economically or morally other for whatever people feel is the wrong reason for it. Now I do believe it is time to come home. I have seen enough of my buddies killed (remember somalia). Casuality of war is iminent, but once again, I feel it is time to come home.
    Probably not, but I think the part I find funny is that everyone thinks Barack is gong to be this welfare handing out, president. Some would argue that he already is, I just think its blown out of proportion. Besides I've seen more whites cashing in on food stamps so its not really a race issue. I guess Im also used to being freinds with a diverse crowd and we can bust each others balls without getting offended. And trust me, as far as the lighthearted stuf goes....we get busted on about the typical white jokes...we cant dance, cant play sports and have "no game" lol!
    When it comes down to serious business, we gotta see each others as individuals rather than be judged on our color or sex or religion.

    I agree w you about a response for 911 was appropriate. But I think keeping the focus on Afghanistan and the capture of bin laden and a more thorough dissolving of al qaeda leadership before moving on Iraq may have prevented the growing of Al Qaeda in Iraq to an extent and its threat to our troops. I would have also preferred more stealth in the quest for Bin Laden and less shock and awe and headlines. I also think waiting on Iraq and finishing the job on Bin laden first would have given less hate fuel for new recruits for AL Qaeda causes.

    I think even the Arab world thought Al Qaeda were nut jobs for the most part, until more and more big military operations were seen over there....then their radical claims of a US led war on Arabia seemed more plausible.

    I am hopeful for a democratic Iraq regardless of the stumbles getting there though.

  22. You also bring up a great point about cars sittin on the lot there....


    I think the biggest problem with Detroit is form the drawing board up in MHO.

    If you're buyin a used car. You wont be quite so picky if your budget is say $6000.

    But if you're buying a new car and spending $20,000, $30,000 or more you want something that is sleek looking and sexy. Can we really say that about Detroit's lineup?

    About the only place I see us having a lead is in the Jumbo Pickups. Which, because of fuel economy...the rest of the world isnt too interested in.

  23. [QUOTE=edgebsl;1819311]
    Quote Originally Posted by ABNRanger View Post
    Besides I've seen more whites cashing in on food stamps so its not really a race issue.
    as a proportion of population the ratios are way off.... Funny, there was the attempt with equal opportunity laws to use those same population % to define how many people of a certain race should be in jobs like police, etc....

  24. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    But if you're buying a new car and spending $20,000, $30,000 or more you want something that is sleek looking and sexy. Can we really say that about Detroit's lineup?
    I think so. The real problem with the detroit lineup is that due to the UAW each car was costing over $2000 more to build than ones built in the US by japanese or other companies. Add that to the fact that again because of the UAW the american companies couldn't afford to adjust their production because due to the fact that they couldn't reduce staffing without still having to PAY the EXACT same wages as if the people were working. So if demand became lower, it would actually RAISE the price of each car as they couldn't do layoffs (or doing layoffs result in no financial savings).

    But the democrats support unions. what a joke.

  25. [QUOTE=EasyEJL;1819326]
    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post

    as a proportion of population the ratios are way off.... Funny, there was the attempt with equal opportunity laws to use those same population % to define how many people of a certain race should be in jobs like police, etc....

    I was speaking of in my area.....

    EJL ,saw your log. Great results btw.

    Glad I put in my requests for AN samples before you learned I was an Obama supporter lol!

    (As EJL puts in a call to have the order cancelled) lol
    "or send him sort of estrogen"

  26. [QUOTE=edgebsl;1819341]
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post


    I was speaking of in my area.....

    EJL ,saw your log. Great results btw.

    Glad I put in my requests for AN samples before you learned I was an Obama supporter lol!

    (As EJL puts in a call to have the order cancelled) lol
    "or send him sort of estrogen"
    nah, I dont let that spill over into any area outside the politics forum.

    Literally though when I was 22 and indecisive about my career I went to apply to the local corrections office for a jail guard position, as it was easier to get into that than directly into the police or sherrifs. Then a year or two later you could transfer into the others. A friend of mine's father was close friends with the warden of the county jail, and i went and talked to him after taking the initial exam and he told me not to waste my time. To reach quotas they basically would hire any vaguely slightly qualified black or hispanic woman who could manage to pass the physical. That particular round they had 10 openings, 15 minority women were taking the exam and then there were about 130 men mixed races....

    So its nice that racial proportions matter when its a case for minorities to get extra benefits, but not an issue when its about how many are collecting welfare, food stamps or section 8 housing.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I think so. The real problem with the detroit lineup is that due to the UAW each car was costing over $2000 more to build than ones built in the US by japanese or other companies. Add that to the fact that again because of the UAW the american companies couldn't afford to adjust their production because due to the fact that they couldn't reduce staffing without still having to PAY the EXACT same wages as if the people were working. So if demand became lower, it would actually RAISE the price of each car as they couldn't do layoffs (or doing layoffs result in no financial savings).

    But the democrats support unions. what a joke.
    The wages being over the top dont have much to do with the cars bieng ugly piles though. The USA cars I looked at I thought were reasonably priced, just not desireable.

    Much of our woe is from foreign competition.

    Remember hearing and seeing everything from the 50s and a bit later. Wasnt uncommon for a family for only the father to have to work and they owned a home and and two cars. Much of Williamsports older homes have been converted to multiple apartments. Long ago they were single family homes belonged to mill workers.

    Life before foreign competition as pretty good in some ways.
    I dont know if we can ever go back to make things fair because people need things to be cheap.

  28. I am all for giving the new president a chance, but I have to wonder about the issue on hiring someone with tax evasion issues to handle our country's treasury. Back to the topic of the stimulus, I think all those "big boys" in these companies, need to give back their big bonuses, and I bet they would not be so deep in the hole. And on the big rip offs going on (Stanford), I hope they put him in the poor house. They should have done the same to the Enron big shots. They caused a lot of people to suffer financially, they should take their money, and make them work for minimum wage. Sorry got side tracked.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by ABNRanger View Post
    I am all for giving the new president a chance, but I have to wonder about the issue on hiring someone with tax evasion issues to handle our country's treasury. Back to the topic of the stimulus, I think all those "big boys" in these companies, need to give back their big bonuses, and I bet they would not be so deep in the hole. And on the big rip offs going on (Stanford), I hope they put him in the poor house. They should have done the same to the Enron big shots. They caused a lot of people to suffer financially, they should take their money, and make them work for minimum wage. Sorry got side tracked.
    I like him, gonna give him a chance. If he's done a poor job at the end of his term...I'll vote another way. I'm reserving judgement till then.

    Tax evaders in Washington? Try finding a clean hand amongst that bunch anywhere. I believe they're all corrupt. Lets hope those who have it in them to do the most good prevail.

    And lets hope this Pres, if he does or is making mistakes, learns quickly.
    I belive his heart is in the right place.

    But I think Bush's was too, and he did some damgage. All we can do is pray and wait to vote.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    The wages being over the top dont have much to do with the cars bieng ugly piles though. The USA cars I looked at I thought were reasonably priced, just not desireable.

    Much of our woe is from foreign competition.

    Remember hearing and seeing everything from the 50s and a bit later. Wasnt uncommon for a family for only the father to have to work and they owned a home and and two cars. Much of Williamsports older homes have been converted to multiple apartments. Long ago they were single family homes belonged to mill workers.

    Life before foreign competition as pretty good in some ways.
    I dont know if we can ever go back to make things fair because people need things to be cheap.
    Actually i find the detroit cars far more attractive than the japanese, and more attractive than most of the eurocars (some are just beautiful tho, like the A5 or lotus exige). The other thing that the japanese always have had luck with marketing wise was the belief that their cars were more reliable. Yet without that $2000 price premium we are stuck with the US auto makers could give bumper to bumper 7 year 100k mile warranties on every car sold...

    You realize that the issue wasn't just foreign competition, but also women's right to work? Wages are largely based on supply and demand. Thats why some areas with a degree (like computer science) pay so much more than areas like anthropology. When women fought for the right to enter the workforce and be treated equally it effectively doubled the pool of workers raising supply, but there was no more demand. so average wages went down...
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