One thing confuses me about the "stimus"

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yep. the estimates of the more or less DIRECT costs of the 9/11 attack was around $640 billion. I'm glad we spent the next installment of that making sure we weren't attacked on our soil again.
    Going after the Taliban and and Bin Laden...great investment.
    Putting troops in Iraq maybe does make us a little more secure from the standpoint that american targets are more accessable now, in the mideast. They dont have to attack us here.
    But Al Qaeda has grown in numbers since our precensce there...perhaps making them a bigger eventual threat.

    But Saddam was an Evil MF. And Im glad hes gone. I just think it was the right war at the wrong time and for the wrong advertised reasons. And before the job was done in Afghanistan. Saddam had no part in 911. Its like blowing up Iran because you're pissed Kim Jong Il tested a missile. Im still suprised people believe Iraq had something to do with 911.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    An additional growth of government as the democrats want and are using the stimulus bill partially for is not in our best interests. The government already eats more than 20% of the GDP to provide less than 18% of the workforce. Remember that the 20% it eats isn't used for anything resembling growth unlike a private or publicly held company. The larger the federal spending grows as a % of GDP, the slower our economy can grow.

    This I can agree w to an extent. But I dont think the problems will fix themselves and the only alternative idea you get from house reps are "more tax cuts" or of course do nothing. I dont think either one of those is a better idea.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    Going after the Taliban and and Bin Laden...great investment.
    Putting troops in Iraq maybe does make us a little more secure from the standpoint that american targets are more accessable now, in the mideast. They dont have to attack us here.
    But Al Qaeda has grown in numbers since our precensce there...perhaps making them a bigger eventual threat.

    But Saddam was an Evil MF. And Im glad hes gone. I just think it was the right war at the wrong time and for the wrong advertised reasons. And before the job was done in Afghanistan. Saddam had no part in 911. Its like blowing up Iran because you're pissed Kim Jong Il tested a missile. Im still suprised people believe Iraq had something to do with 911.
    Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time even the UN security council BELIEVED that Sadam was building weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the UN took no action for over 10 years of Saddam ignoring their restrictions (well, other than sending him letters), and many countries refused to join us doesn't change that fact. At the time, we operated with the same intelligence as anyone else. Saddam was an unstable influence in that region and given our dependence on foreign oil, I feel it was quite reasonable at the time.



    Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    This I can agree w to an extent. But I dont think the problems will fix themselves and the only alternative idea you get from house reps are "more tax cuts" or of course do nothing. I dont think either one of those is a better idea.
    Tax cuts to businesses would create far more jobs far faster than this package will. Here's some of what my childrens future income is being pissed away on instead

    $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
    $300 million for grants to combat violence against women
    $2 billion for federal child-care block grants
    $6 billion for university building projects
    $15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    $4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
    $1 billion for community-development block grants
    $4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
    $650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”
    $30 million for Pelosi's endangered mouse

    Do those look like they are crafted to create jobs? economic stimulus? not at all
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    1st bold - did you really mean won't? The economy will fix itself, one way or another it will.
    2nd bold - Maybe you worded it wron, but it is a stimulus package, oh wait, I think I see what you mean.
    3rd bold - The japanese are in a worse slump than we are, so is europe. Everyone talks about this starting in the housing industry/banking industry and with it's lending habits etc, but really (a big portion it very well may be) is still only one portion of the problem. The worlds economy is so intertwined these days that even other continents economic problems have the ability to effect another. Especially if the countries and so forth are closely connected.

    As far as the Iraq war, well, man that's a touchy and complicated subject. However, having been over there and having many, many Iraqi's come to me and my teammates and tell us how glad they are for us to help them, even with the whole insurgency I still believe we did a good thing. I won't talk about how well things were always handled, because I will concede that things def could have been done different or better, but in 2003 when Iraqi's came to me and pulled a cross out from under their shirt and thanked me because they had always lived in fear I feel it's a positive. Even in recent deployments when I'm thanked because they now have their own business running because they can unlike before because they were not the right sect i.e. sunni/shia etc. I feel we did right. When I flew in on a mission to retrieve an iraqi from an insurgent torture house with all 4 extremities broken because he voted and was in support of democracy, I feel we've done right.

    Ok, I'll just stop there, because that was prolly too much for this thread.
    Yeah, Im not confident it can rebound on its own...or at least when it does there wont be much american owned business left.

    And yeah, the stimulants thing was a joke! As well as the japanese workday. I think that japan being in a slump could mean a good thing for us if we do bounce back becaseu they've held such an edge on us for so long...im so sick of japanese made ****!

    I salute you for serving over there! Got a buddy and my wife's brother in law over there too. I think for the Iraqi people, it was a great thing the US did. And the troops did an amazing job.
    And I think from that standpoint Bush is right about history eventually vindicating him. What I disagree with, is that it should have been sold on more hard evidence and less as a response to 911. And I think Afghanistan should have been sorted first. I think if it was sold the right way, we could have gotten more global support. But whats done is done.

  4. wait, heres some more

    $150 million for the Smithsonian
    $34 million to renovate the Department of Commerce headquarters
    $500 million for improvement projects for National Institutes of Health facilities
    $44 million for repairs to Department of Agriculture headquarters
    $350 million for Agriculture Department computers
    $88 million to help move the Public Health Service into a new building
    $448 million for constructing a new Homeland Security Department headquarters
    $600 million to convert the federal auto fleet to hybrids
    $450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)
    $600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)
    $1 billion for the Census Bureau
    $89 billion for Medicaid
    $30 billion for COBRA insurance extension
    $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits
    $20 billion for food stamps
    $4.5 billion for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
    $850 million for Amtrak
    $87 million for a polar icebreaking ship
    $1.7 billion for the National Park System
    $55 million for Historic Preservation Fund
    $7.6 billion for “rural community advancement programs”
    $150 million for agricultural-commodity purchases
    $150 million for “producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish”
    $2 billion for renewable-energy research ($400 million for global-warming research)
    $2 billion for a “clean coal” power plant in Illinois
    $6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program
    $3.5 billion for energy-efficiency and conservation block grants
    $3.4 billion for the State Energy Program
    $200 million for state and local electric-transport projects
    $300 million for energy-efficient-appliance rebate programs
    $400 million for hybrid cars for state and local governments
    $1 billion for the manufacturing of advanced batteries
    $1.5 billion for green-technology loan guarantees
    $8 billion for innovative-technology loan-guarantee program
    $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects
    $4.5 billion for electricity grid

    $79 billion for State Fiscal Stabilization Fund

    So as per the usual with democrats, reward the irresponsible. The states that treated rising home values as if they won the lottery themselves and just continued to expand their budgets further and further rather than building any reserves get more than 10% of the stimulus. hooray

  5. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    Yeah, Im not confident it can rebound on its own...or at least when it does there wont be much american owned business left.
    but it will. I've seen it worse than this in the last 30 years, I don't know why everyone is so "chicken little" about it. these things are cyclical in nature.

    There would be plenty of american owned businesses if people didn't expect to have a manufacturing job that paid better than a real estate lawyer like the UAW does.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time even the UN security council BELIEVED that Sadam was building weapons of mass destruction. The fact that the UN took no action for over 10 years of Saddam ignoring their restrictions (well, other than sending him letters), and many countries refused to join us doesn't change that fact. At the time, we operated with the same intelligence as anyone else. Saddam was an unstable influence in that region and given our dependence on foreign oil, I feel it was quite reasonable at the time.





    Tax cuts to businesses would create far more jobs far faster than this package will. Here's some of what my childrens future income is being pissed away on instead

    $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
    $300 million for grants to combat violence against women
    $2 billion for federal child-care block grants
    $6 billion for university building projects
    $15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    $4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
    $1 billion for community-development block grants
    $4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
    $650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”
    $30 million for Pelosi's endangered mouse

    Do those look like they are crafted to create jobs? economic stimulus? not at all
    I agree they dont. The education and job training will make the US more competetive though. Only the last two piss me off.

    The tax cuts we have had, have not been creating jobs because companies like Wal Mart will use that to increase their bottom line profits. Tax cuts to small and mid size businesses maybe bot not the bulk of the bush tax cuts.

  7. "$20 billion for food stamps"

    Haha

    My buddy said that "while most presidents get their face on money, Obama will get his on food stamps".

    Now, he's not a rascist guy, nor am I. But I got admit....that's funny!

  8. Quote Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
    I agree they dont. The education and job training will make the US more competetive though. Only the last two piss me off.
    Thats ficticious logic. The educational facilities and training resources already exist - but people don't take advantage of them. Also, the liberals have totally infested the university system, making requirements of philosophy, socialism, etc which just lengthens and raises the expense of college while providing dubious benefit. Then there are also all the useless liberal majors as well, who the poor kids graduate with 40k in student loans and a degree in some bullpoop field that there is no careers in.

    But beyond that, our problem is really in the elementary schools. We've become a nation of pussification - creating the largest generation of worthless sissies ever. Teachers can't use red ink because it might harm a childs tender psyche. Tag being outlawed during recess because some children might find it stressful to watch another child being chased. Grading of A, B, C, D, and "Needs Improvement". Its ridiculous what the liberals and the special interest group called the teachers union have done to the educational system.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Thats ficticious logic. The educational facilities and training resources already exist - but people don't take advantage of them. Also, the liberals have totally infested the university system, making requirements of philosophy, socialism, etc which just lengthens and raises the expense of college while providing dubious benefit. Then there are also all the useless liberal majors as well, who the poor kids graduate with 40k in student loans and a degree in some bullpoop field that there is no careers in.

    But beyond that, our problem is really in the elementary schools. We've become a nation of pussification - creating the largest generation of worthless sissies ever. Teachers can't use red ink because it might harm a childs tender psyche. Tag being outlawed during recess because some children might find it stressful to watch another child being chased. Grading of A, B, C, D, and "Needs Improvement". Its ridiculous what the liberals and the special interest group called the teachers union have done to the educational system.
    I could say similar things about the influence of the far religious right in our schools and in government. But the fact is, neither the far left or the far right represent most of our ideals. but unfortuantely that is who is running the congress.

    A agree with you about the pussifying. I'll be damned if I let my kid whine about any of that ****!

    Great discussion!

    I gotta get crackin on some work though.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    but it will. I've seen it worse than this in the last 30 years, I don't know why everyone is so "chicken little" about it. these things are cyclical in nature.

    There would be plenty of american owned businesses if people didn't expect to have a manufacturing job that paid better than a real estate lawyer like the UAW does.
    True. We did the same thing i the 80's with the saving's and loans industry. However, he's prolly too young to remember that. Other than the slight downturn in the 90's he's never experienced a struggling economy.

    Capitalism works great, but every once in awhile it does stray a bit of course and it has to correct itself. We've been through worse and we'll see worse again, but as in the past this to shall pass. (ok didn't mean to make that sound corny and ryme like that).
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  11. Yeah, I have to admit that teaching intelligent design is a joke. Teaching abstinence as a part of sex ed isnt tho

  12. Thanks Copycat for your service. My buddy, actually one of my lifting buddies, is an Airbourne Ranger, hes supposed to be over right now, but he had to stay back for more training. I've heard some stories. My cousin is set to return in April. Got quite a few other friends over there.

    Who cares if there are not bombs there that were supposed to be there to make us look good, or how many uneducated people put "End the War" bumperstickers on their cars? This is called the WAR ON TERROR. If we are going to declare war on terror, as one of the troops on a recent CNN story in Afghanistan stated, we need to combat terror where ever it may be. Remember 9/11.

    Now, that doesn't mean that we just go spend all the money in the world. We need to do our part on the home front. We need to get the economy on track. A government in this country will never be the fix, the system is not set up like that. Realize that the US government is the longest lasting unchanged system in the history of the world, even tho our country is not the oldest or longest lasting. This all goes back the foundation- the founding fathers. They set it up to last, and we need to keep that in mind. Obviously things have changed, but we need to keep those founding priciples. Our government will not (or should not) take care of you, you have to take care of you.

  13. I see things as a version of a Hegelian Dialectic.

    People won't knowingly hand over rights and freedoms, but if:

    Someone creates a chaotic event...the populace react emotionally and ask for help...the powers that be offer "solutions" to the problems they created...these solutions quite often involve the loss of rights and freedoms in the name of patriotism.

  14. like the movie The Siege

  15. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    Now, that doesn't mean that we just go spend all the money in the world. We need to do our part on the home front. We need to get the economy on track. A government in this country will never be the fix, the system is not set up like that. Realize that the US government is the longest lasting unchanged system in the history of the world, even tho our country is not the oldest or longest lasting. This all goes back the foundation- the founding fathers. They set it up to last, and we need to keep that in mind. Obviously things have changed, but we need to keep those founding priciples. Our government will not (or should not) take care of you, you have to take care of you.
    I've highlighted the point I want to address. The US economy, namely the stock market, is cyclical in nature. Since records have been kept documenting the stock market, the economy swings up and then swings down, swings up, then down. It repeats itself. And anytime we have a large upswing, there is a resounding bottom out.

    Within your time frame let me point out the Tech bubble. Tech stocks became way over-valued and eventually the market had to correct itself. A lot of people lost a lot of money. It was the end of the world as we knew it.

    Now to the present. The banks loaned money to people that did not have the means to keep up with the ARM's that they were approved for. And then the banks took these securities and put them in groups or funds. These funds were highly valuated, purchased by many companies banks included. However, the funds themselves weren't actually worth anything. They were drastically overvalued (kind of similar to the tech bubble). Well there was only one possible outcome.

    The people who had taken out loans above their means started to foreclose on their homes. It started in a trickle and eventually became a downpour. This is bad for the banking system because they lose money when someone forecloses. But what really tanked the system is that these over-inflated funds were realized for what they were...empty air. This caused the banks to take a drastic write off. People panicked, the media fed the frenzy, and a large sell-off of stocks began similar to the Great Depression. Now there are companies out there who are fairly valued at $200 a share, trading for $50 a share. For no other reason than people panicked.

    Now it's been drummed up that we are in a recession, that everyone needs to panic. The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling! seems to be the cry heard daily on the news. So people react emotionally, instead of logically working it through their small skulls. Everyone tightens up the wallets. Stops spending the money that they typically spend. This presents a problem for companies that sell product, because now orders have dropped. They have to cut back, laying off employees. More Panic! It's a vicious circle.

    However, companies will lean themselves out. Banks will begin to lend again. People will be forced to be more fiscally responsible. Owning a home will not be a god-given right for everyone anymore, it will be something that you have to save and plan for. Like it was supposed to be. The market will bottom out, the panic will subside, and we will begin the long arduous trek out of the bottom of the cycle we are currently in and five years from now it will be a thing of the past, long forgotten by most, and the economy will once again be on the rise to the crest. And eventually it will return to a bottom.

    It's the nature of capitalism and our market.

  16. By "We" I was refering to the government, not we as the people. We as the people need to learn how to compound our income, and be able to spend more, as you said. I should have cleared that up I guess.

    We, as the people, need to get rid of this entitlement mentality. Like this 'free government money' ad thats staring at me as I type this. This is America, the land of opportunity, not the land of 'we will give you whatever you want'. You get what you work for, you are entitled to nothing. So take care of yourself.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    By "We" I was refering to the government, not we as the people. We as the people need to learn how to compound our income, and be able to spend more, as you said. I should have cleared that up I guess.

    We, as the people, need to get rid of this entitlement mentality. Like this 'free government money' ad thats staring at me as I type this. This is America, the land of opportunity, not the land of 'we will give you whatever you want'. You get what you work for, you are entitled to nothing. So take care of yourself.

  18. Hahahaha. Hes got it worse than anyone. Eeyyy, might as well throw in another half billion plus for a new marine 1. haha

  19. $50 billion extra in food stamps will create new jobs right?

  20. Hey its worth a shot, haha. I can hear him now, "well if they have more food stamps they will have more food. If they have more food they will have more energy and ambition to go out and get a good paying job."

  21. hahahahaha I know. Its so totally retarded. the more comfortable you make people without them having to put out any effort, the less likely they are to put out effort. Its the issue with marginal tax rates. Does the person living in section 8 housing, on food stamps with welfare going to live significantly better taking an $8/hr job? no, so there is no incentive for them to take it.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by briancogs888 View Post
    Hahahaha. Hes got it worse than anyone. Eeyyy, might as well throw in another half billion plus for a new marine 1. haha
    New Marine 1? Hell, he's got 5 of them already and those are just the one's that work White side. I work next door to those guys.
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  23. I think its sad, but many people like to brag about the fact that our welfare system puts people in better living conditions, on average, than what the middle class of Europe lives in. Based on standard of livings and so on.

  24. Interesting ad.
    I live in WIlliamsport PA lol!

    Here, a good paying job is considered in the 20,000 per year range.
    We have 4 close family members laid off, and I have four friends in the region who were laid off in the last 4 months. Its a pretty depressing area.

    I was told that mayor used to try to sell the fact that our area is used to working for small wages to try and persuade new companies to come here. The cost of living is reasonable, but most people I know who work an honest living have an incredibly tough time keeping up with expenses. The average pay for a hard days work has stayed the same for so many years and the cost of everything has gone up.

    I know people who are working who are getting assistance. Some people really do need it. It does piss me off all the people living in govt housing though with 3 kids and who will not work. How do you seperate getting help to those who really need it and those too lazy to help themselves.

    Fortunately, I am self employed , partner an llc a new business with 3 others and look to make about $30,000 this year. Only my wife is stuck underpaid and underappreciated and overworked with horrible benefits. As we speak we are a month behind on everything except our mortgage. had a furnace break and pipes froze and burst setting us back.

    So I think "The sky is falling" perception is from the perspective of where you are standing and how you see it affect family and friends. If you're doing alright, then I guess its easy to say "Calm down, everything cycles". I ,personally know a lot of people who feel like they are in deep **** and they dont even have to watch the news.

    The grant that ad is talking about has been around...forever. Its about the grants govt will give you for starting a small business in an underserved area to try and get the areas to grow. From what I understand, the criteria is pretty steep and you have to have a badass business plan to even be considered and only a select few are given out.
    That Ad capatilizes in public interest over the headlines. And in doing so, probably gets people worked up too, about things that are rare and nothing to get worked up about.

  25. [QUOTE=edgebsl;1814221]"$20 billion for food stamps"

    Haha

    My buddy said that "while most presidents get their face on money, Obama will get his on food stamps".

    Now, he's not a rascist guy, nor am I. But I got admit....that's funny![/QUOTE]

    Not to start a racial dispute, but would he have said something to that effect if the president was white. I think you yourself felt it seemed racist, hence your statement of defence. I am one for good comedy, and don't usually read into things, but that comment did spark my interest. Now as I digress, I think the thought that the stimulus would create jobs (especially in the auto industry) is misguided. With the economy as it is now, and so many auto workers laid off, the inventory will still be full when this gets resolved. Do you think they will make more cars with so much still sitting on the lot?
    As a military minded person, and a long military career, I say we needed to make a stand for what happened on 911. War will always spark a lot of negative response, whether economically or morally other for whatever people feel is the wrong reason for it. Now I do believe it is time to come home. I have seen enough of my buddies killed (remember somalia). Casuality of war is iminent, but once again, I feel it is time to come home.
    Last edited by ABNRanger; 02-21-2009 at 08:39 PM.
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