"The first thing I'd do as president is..."

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    Exclamation "The first thing I'd do as president is..."


    "The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That's the first thing that I'd do." -- Senator Barack Obama, speaking to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, July 17, 2007


    "Freedom of Choice Act" Index Page

    Pro-Abortion Lawmakers Propose "FOCA" to Invalidate All Limits on Abortion

    The bill flatly invalidates any "statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice, or other action" of any federal, state, or local government or governmental official (or any person acting under government authority) that would "deny or interfere with a woman's right to choose" abortion, or that would "discriminate against the exercise of the right . . . in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information."

    This no-restriction policy would establish, in Senator Boxer's words, "the absolute right to choose" prior to fetal "viability."

    The no-restriction policy would also apply after "viability" to any abortion sought on grounds of "health." The bill does not define "health," but in some past abortion cases the Supreme Court has sometimes used the term to apply to any physical or emotional consideration whatsoever, including "distress."

    The term "viability" is usually understood to refer to the point at which a baby's lungs are developed to the point that he or she can in fact survive independently of the mother currently, about 23 or 24 weeks. However, the bill contains no objective criteria for "viability," but rather, requires that the judgment regarding "viability" be left entirely in the hands of "the attending physician" which is to say, the abortionist.
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    The Four Murders

    Jimmy was an average 5 year old boy. He enjoyed sports, video games and loved to watch SpongeBob SquarePants. He was a good student and was liked by many at school. At home he was the pride and joy of his Dad and he was the big brother two his little sister.

    On a day just weeks before Jimmy was to turn 6 years old a very terrible tragedy overcame him. A terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act took Jimmy's life. He was murdered. Jimmy was only 5 years old, just weeks shy of his 6th birthday. Jimmy had his whole life ahead of him.

    Micheal was a typical teenager. He was rebellious and mischievous. He did not like school much but he did the best he knew how. Although he was not a student he was a great athlete. He was first string quarterback on the varsity high school team. All the girls wanted his attention. His father was as proud as could be of the athlete son he had raised.

    One cold afternoon on the fall of his senior year day a terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act took Michael's life. He was murdered. He was just shy of his 18th birthday. He had his whole life ahead of him.

    Gordon was your average middle aged father and husband. He worked too many hours and spent too little time with his family. He was tired and run down. He did know the value of family and did his best to be a part of their life. He was a best friend and lover to his wife of 18 years and a great father to his 2 daughters and son. His family meant the world to him and they loved their Dad without condition.

    An unfortunate thing had happened to Gordon. A terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act took his his life. He was murdered. It happened just weeks before his 44th birthday. He had his whole life ahead of him.

    Jordon was a joy to his family the moment he came into their lives. The thought of him or the mention of his name brought a smile to the whole family's face. His fathered always donned him with special attention and they would talk for hours in a day. His mother's whole world revolved around him. She actually lived for him. Jordon thrived on the attention and care that his mother and father poured out upon him. When they called his name he would perk up with excitement and engage with them in all sorts of bonding activities.

    Things went bad for his mother and father. Dad lost his job and began to drink a lot and become abusive and his mother filed for divorce. His mother was unsure if she was going to be a good mother all alone. She didn't know how she would be able to care for a baby by herself and support herself and her career. She was under terrible distress.

    Sadly, just weeks before Jordon's expected date of birth his life was taken from him by a terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act. He had his whole life ahead of him until he was aborted - murdered.
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    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9CwS2ri2Jc"]YouTube - Zazoo Condoms Funny Ad / Grocery Store Kid[/nomedia]

    Yay abortion.....because kids suck!
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    "yay omelets" Is actually a very poignant picture. though not in the way Im sure you meant it.

    You guys are all willing too eat eggs, and meat, but abortion is bad? Right....
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    I had a long-winded reply, but this is much better:



    The myth that this act is a free-for-all, license-to-kill piece of legislation is a deliberate act of willful ignorance.
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    Jordon was a joy to his family the moment he came into their lives. The thought of him or the mention of his name brought a smile to the whole family's face. His fathered always donned him with special attention and they would talk for hours in a day. His mother's whole world revolved around him. She actually lived for him. Jordon thrived on the attention and care that his mother and father poured out upon him. When they called his name he would perk up with excitement and engage with them in all sorts of bonding activities.

    Things went bad for his mother and father. Dad lost his job and began to drink a lot and become abusive and his mother filed for divorce. His mother was unsure if she was going to be a good mother all alone. She didn't know how she would be able to care for a baby by herself and support herself and her career. She was under terrible distress.

    Sadly, just weeks before Jordon's expected date of birth his life was taken from him by a terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act. He had his whole life ahead of him until he was aborted - murdered.


    Sweet...can we hear a description of Jordan? Hair color? Eye color? height? dreams/habit/personality traits? Oh...he has none? All sorts of "bonding activities"? Such as? Perk up with excitement at heading his name??? Seriously? A foetus knows enough symbolic language to recognize his name? And just to be clear...how many "weeks" before birth did this take place?

    Hmm...guess it's not that same, and nothing but emotionally charged propaganda then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    You guys are all willing too eat eggs, and meat, but abortion is bad? Right....
    You're kidding...right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Sweet...can we hear a description of Jordan? Hair color? Eye color? height? dreams/habit/personality traits? Oh...he has none? All sorts of "bonding activities"? Such as?

    Hmm...guess it's not that same, and nothing but emotionally charged propaganda then.
    You're kidding me?

    How about singing and dancing together.
    How about playing tag.
    How about calling his name and he reply's with a kick.
    How about 19" and 7lbs.
    How about large feet but small fingers.
    How about his Dad's nose and his Mother's chin.
    How about him waking up with you every morning when you go to work.
    How about him rocking himself to sleep with you when you go to bed.
    He gets cranky in the morning.
    He is playful at night.
    He hates Mexican food.
    He loves hot dogs.

    The son that I have today who is 18 yo was as much my son and an active participating member of my family at 20, 30, 34...36 weeks as he is now.

    1" of abdominal skin and an amnionic sac makes him less my son and a living human being...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post

    The myth that this act is a free-for-all, license-to-kill piece of legislation is a deliberate act of willful ignorance.
    My guess is you may be optimistic of the human capacity...I'm not!
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    You're kidding me?

    How about singing and dancing together.
    How about playing tag.
    How about calling his name and he reply's with a kick.
    How about 19" and 7lbs.
    How about large feet but small fingers.
    How about his Dad's nose and his Mother's chin.
    He gets cranky in he morning.
    He is playful at night.
    How about him waking up with you every morning when you go to work.
    How about him rocking himself to sleep with you when you go to bed.

    The son that I have today who is 18 yo was as much my son and an active participating member of my family at 20, 30, 34...36 weeks as he is now.

    1" of abdominal skin and an amnionic sac makes him less my son and a living human being...?
    I don't see any of these details from the article. Source?
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    You're kidding...right?
    No. What makes a human life more valuable than any other animal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    I don't see any of these details from the article. Source?
    What article source?

    I wrote the story to illustrate a point. My son is my son. Murdering him at 36 weeks is the same as murdering him today at 18 yo. No difference. At least to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    No. What makes a human life more valuable than any other animal?
    If you even have to ask then I could not possibly convince you otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    What article source?

    I wrote the story to illustrate a point. My son is my son. Murdering him at 36 weeks is the same as murdering him today at 18 yo. No difference. At least to me.
    Ahh, gotcha...I thought this was an article.

    Never mind.

    Curious, at what backwards progression, then, do you acknowledge (especially with an totally non-developed nervous system) that abortion is not murder?
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    If you even have to ask then I could not possibly convince you otherwise.
    A very mature answer. Agree to disagree then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    A very mature answer. Agree to disagree then.
    You have doubt about the value of human life over foul and livestock food sources and I do not posses the skills to convince you otherwise. Please don't call me immature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    You have doubt about the value of human life over foul and livestock food sources and I do not posses the skills to convince you otherwise. Please don't call me immature.
    I was honestly commending you for a gracious response to what is normally an emotionally charged issue. It was not meant as condescending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    No. What makes a human life more valuable than any other animal?
    Wow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Curious, at what backwards progression, then, do you acknowledge (especially with an totally non-developed nervous system) that abortion is not murder?
    Is there really a point of measurement when it is not a human life?

    It was conceived, it is growing, it's cell reproduction (or whatever physiological process takes place) is progressing...it's living and thriving and of the human species.

    Of course there are fungal and bacterial organisms that can do the same.

    When is it OK to kill another human being?
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    I was honestly commending you for a gracious response to what is normally an emotionally charged issue. It was not meant as condescending.
    Mistook the "very mature" for sarcasm...no harm, no foul.
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    I want to mention that my point was not particularly for debate on the moral issue of abortion but illustrate a point.

    How many who voted Obama to get their "gas tank filled" and "mortgage paid" know what his stance was on abortion or this matter or the FOCA.

    This man made a lot of promises to a lot of "organizations" to garner their support, whether financial or moral, and then he sold the public a "time for change" to garner their support to get elected and put into office.

    There are many markers to be called on from a lot of organizations that supported him and most Americans will be blindsided by the choices and decision and laws that are enacted in his term...and they ask for them when they voted for him to fix their economic crisis. This economic crisis was a result of an ethical crisis. The cost of the solution to the economic crisis will be the birth of a moral crisis.

    The issue of the ambiguity of "distress", "health" and late term abortion WILL come up. People, not all, but some, are like water, they have the innate potential to find the lowest level. They always do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    "yay omelets" Is actually a very poignant picture. though not in the way Im sure you meant it.

    You guys are all willing too eat eggs, and meat, but abortion is bad? Right....

    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    No. What makes a human life more valuable than any other animal?
    I see you're a "ray of sunshine" yourself today, huh?

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    FOCA- LOL, talk about a "uniter". That'll do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post

    When is it OK to kill another human being?
    Exactly where the problem arises...when does it qualify as being classified as a "human being"?

    (emotionally charged, yes...but not something often tackled on this board and now obviously relevant. Let's keep this one civil.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    I see you're a "ray of sunshine" yourself today, huh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Ok, we're even, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Exactly where the problem arises...when does it qualify as being classified as a "human being"?
    Well, this is pretty simple really. With the development of science over the years we now know that the embryo at its earliest stages has all the criteria needed to establish the existence of biological life. The embryo has metabolism, the ability to react to stimuli, and cell reproduction. This enough to let us know that the embryo can be called a human being. Also, each embryo is different and set apart by a distinct genetic code. And last time I checked size or level of dependency had nothing to do with classifying someone as a human being.
    Armed to the teeth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    No. What makes a human life more valuable than any other animal?
    It was a joke, but I agree with this statement.

    Plus, nothing wrong with abortions IMO.

    How late(what trimester) before it's too late, etc...etc... I don't know, I'm not an expert on the issue, but I'm not against abortions.

    If it's reasonably regulated(not too much, not too little) I have no problem with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post

    Sadly, just weeks before Jordon's expected date of birth his life was taken from him by a terrible, careless, selfish and senseless act. He had his whole life ahead of him until he was aborted - murdered.

    Reminds me of the song Then You Really Might Know What It's Like by Everlast.
    I dont have a strong opinion on abortion. I guess I support it so long as its done EARLY....in all caps
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    You have doubt about the value of human life over foul and livestock food sources and I do not posses the skills to convince you otherwise
    I'd say we're all mammals.
    I dont like to hunt, I feel terrible killing animals for sport, but I'm not going to stop eating them. On the vegitarian issue, I think its pretty funny that all the other animals eat each other, but as soon as we join the food chain it's "immoral."

    Its a pretty difficult issue. Religion says all the animals are just brainless machines place here for us to feed on. w/o religion, we're all just animals.

    I'd rather no abortion take place ideally, but we dont live in an ideal world. Would you rather be born into an orphanage or not at all? (not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking for opinions).
    To argue against myself, the world has seen some incredible things from "b@stard" children lol (Hamilton for instance)

    Sarah Palin is against abortion even in cases of rape and incest. Worse than Obamas stance I'd say. Young girls should not have to carry out a pregnancy because they got attacked late one night.


    btw B5150 I'm not attacking/addressing you, your post just inspired some late night rambling haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
    Well, this is pretty simple really. With the development of science over the years we now know that the embryo at its earliest stages has all the criteria needed to establish the existence of biological life. The embryo has metabolism, the ability to react to stimuli, and cell reproduction. This enough to let us know that the embryo can be called a human being. Also, each embryo is different and set apart by a distinct genetic code. And last time I checked size or level of dependency had nothing to do with classifying someone as a human being.
    Source please.
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    I thought level of dependancy decided a lot?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I thought level of dependancy decided a lot?
    Only if you are not the one that it depends on.

    Seriously, just did a refresher, and it looks like even the most rudimentary nervous system development is not until 9 weeks.
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    Its asinine that Maryland has a 72 hour waiting period to get married, but no waiting period for abortions.
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    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
    The waiting period is a good idea. Yes the three days is unfortunate, but what would be more unfortanate is a non-raped pregnant woman having a bad day and deciding to get an abortion, and regretting it the next day.
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    I'm not aware of any state that doesn't do a rape kit/pregnancy/std testing much sooner than months later but even if that were the case, 3 days wouldn't be much of a difference... I would also hope that having to deal with something as traumatic as rape, there would be a wait period to allow for counseling. When dealing with abortion, it may be even more truamatic than the rape.

    I've delt with a case where a Catholic woman attempted suicide after the abortion but didn't after the rape...

    I'm pro-choice and believe it should be the decision of the mother(there are other exceptions/beliefs within this)
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    Quote Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
    Well, this is pretty simple really. With the development of science over the years we now know that the embryo at its earliest stages has all the criteria needed to establish the existence of biological life. The embryo has metabolism, the ability to react to stimuli, and cell reproduction. This enough to let us know that the embryo can be called a human being. Also, each embryo is different and set apart by a distinct genetic code. And last time I checked size or level of dependency had nothing to do with classifying someone as a human being.
    So I maybe these embros which are so small women can miscarry them w/o knowing could be surviving in the sewers..along with the allegators flushed down toilets by movie stars. I real life jungle book scenario perhaps

    Everything is in place for it to someday survive on its own, but it doesnt have a snowballs chance in hel| outside the mothers womb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
    My point is that marriage is reversible and there is a waiting period of 72 hours. Abortion is in no way reversible and there is no waiting period required.

    I'm sure the justification for the marriage waiting is that you wouldn't want to do something you'd regret. It seems that an abortion should get at least the waiting period, as the potential for regret is greater since its an action that can't be undone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskers View Post
    So I maybe these embros which are so small women can miscarry them w/o knowing could be surviving in the sewers..along with the allegators flushed down toilets by movie stars. I real life jungle book scenario perhaps

    Everything is in place for it to someday survive on its own, but it doesnt have a snowballs chance in hel| outside the mothers womb
    a 1 year old wouldn't survive on it's own either. Can we kill it then? How about a 1 week old?
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  5. is there such thing as a "clean" bulk?
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