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  1. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    In this particular discussion, apparently that discretion is up to you. Is it not? I assume so, given the very binary judgment abortion you are making herein.

    I also comically enjoy the manner in which regret is being synonymously interchanged with mistake in this instance. Is it not being considered that at times a woman regrets the situation as a whole, but undergoes the abortion as a deliberate act? Abortions are not as happy-go-lucky as they are being made to seem.
    I am not sure what you mean.

    I am not passing judgment and have compassion and sympathy for cases that require such.

    In either case it is, or is not, a human life, which also solicits compassion.

    In either case it is taking a life, if it is indeed a human life, as I believe.

    But again, my question is - what are the circumstances that subject a human life to abortion (death) and who determines the prerequisite?

    You are using rape as one...what about divorce, infidelity, loss of a job (insufficient means), abuse...what is defined as distress and who decides?
    Life is a terminal condition.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Ah, Rob! What would a debate be without you deliberately misrepresenting my words, and painting me with making an argumentum ad populum (appeal to the base)?

    You were painting it as a non-issue, and I was merely circumventing your ignorance and pointing out it may (possibly, you think?) be an issue for those who are affected.
    I wouldn't consider it misrepresenting you words as much as twisting them (j/k) .

    How do you think I'm misrepresenting what you're saying? I was merely pointing out that this statement could very well apply to gays in the military as well as many other issues:

    All three of you have experience as impregnated rape victims, correct? As I am quite sure none of you have, let us refrain, out of respect for those who do have experience in this particular field, from making objective statements on what is, and what is not an issue. Shall we?
    On abortion, I see both sides of the issue and could honestly go either way, I don't care too much one way or the other. Less babies means less entitlements and therefore less of my money being taken out for taxes (in theory), so I guess abortions are good in that sense.

    However, I see how they could be viewed as morally reprehensible as murder or infanticide, especially in late term abortions.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Ah, yes, more fallacies! Where did I say as such? Where did I imply worth anywhere within this discussion? I would enjoy your attempts to show me where I have.

    Abortion is a reality, not a moral abstraction. I am sure women heading into an Abortion Clinic are more than interested in your philosophical permutations on the subject, Rugger. I am quite sure, just as they are contemplating the severity of their actions and the ramifications therein, their first thought is the philosophical implications of worth vs., non-worth! A pragmatist you are, sir.
    Were you not justifying abortion with the rape-case example? With that reasoning I do not view worth as moral abstraction but as reality, as you put it. If not, on what grounds is the rape case a reasonable argument?

    Edit: Nevermind. I'm tired of you and your intellectual prowess making me feel stupid LOL
    Last edited by Rugger; 11-11-2008 at 03:11 PM.

  4. As I am getting heated, let me apologize for any derisive sarcasm, and address the respectful comments in kind:

    But again, my question is - what are the circumstances that subject a human life to abortion (death) and who determines the prerequisite?

    You are using rape as one...what about divorce, infidelity, loss of a job (insufficient means), abuse...what is defined as distress and who decides?
    Allow me to explain my comments: I interpret you to take an absolute position on abortion - that is, it always is, and always will be, murder. Now, despite the fact you claim to have sympathy and compassion for those affected - and, being that it is you, I wholeheartedly believe you - that is a judgment: You are making a discretionary stand that it is never justified. In such an instance, what rational appeal could I make to sway you from your position? I assume none.

    In respects to prerequisite, you know as well as I do making objective qualifications will gloss over some instance or another - they always do. Such is why these decisions are discretionary; in the specific case of Post-Viability, the mother's health is the prerequisite condition, to be made by the attending physician, on whether or not the child is to be aborted. In respects to the other decisions, such opinions are necessarily formed individually, on an ad hoc basis. I cannot say I support every instance of abortion, but will say unequivocally I would refuse any measure which seeks to rebuke the woman's right to choose based on a certain percentage of uninformed decisions.

    How do you think I'm misrepresenting what you're saying? I was merely pointing out that this statement could very well apply to gays in the military as well as many other issues:
    You equated my statement to "this is none of your business", when such is not the case. I am in this case, and try to in others, merely inject some reality into abstracted situations - that is, we must always consider that real-live individuals are affected by actions made on emotional, intellectual, and moral bases (bay-SEES - I hate that spelling).

    Were you not justifying abortion with the rape-case example? With that reasoning I do not view worth as moral abstraction but as reality, as you put it. If not, on what grounds is the rape case a reasonable argument?

    Edit: Nevermind. I'm tired of you and your intellectual prowess making me feel stupid LOL
    I was stating that in certain cases reality may infringe on moral imperatives, not that either baby is worth more or worth less. And, I agree, I am too tired for this ****.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    You equated my statement to "this is none of your business", when such is not the case. I am in this case, and try to in others, merely inject some reality into abstracted situations - that is, we must always consider that real-live individuals are affected by actions made on emotional, intellectual, and moral bases (bay-SEES - I hate that spelling).
    I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I have heard many times in the past people say basically: "abortion has nothing to do with a man, so stay out of it" and I thought that is where you were going with what you said. My bad.

    As far as what you were actually saying, I agree with you, it never hurts to hear from people directly affected by proposed legislation.

    I think what makes the abortion question so divisive is that both sides have extremely compelling arguments, both of which tug at the heartstrings of people. I wish both sides would just find a reasonable compromise (early term abortions, with a waiting period) and let it rest. This is the largest wedge issue in America, and the fact that politicians keep adding fuel to the fire by bringing it up again doesn't help anybody.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I see. I misunderstood what you were saying. I have heard many times in the past people say basically: "abortion has nothing to do with a man, so stay out of it" and I thought that is where you were going with what you said. My bad.

    As far as what you were actually saying, I agree with you, it never hurts to hear from people directly affected by proposed legislation.

    I think what makes the abortion question so divisive is that both sides have extremely compelling arguments, both of which tug at the heartstrings of people.
    Yes, that is all I meant. One need not be directly involved in a situation to form an opinion on it - I know I am sick at times, without having an M.D. I merely think it dangerous to abstract things without considering those who are actually affected by our decisions. Somebody had made a comment that rape-births are a 'non-issue'; I merely meant to say that it is in fact an issue to those that suffer through it.

  7. I have yet to hear a compelling argument from the pro-choice side beyond aborting a child when the mother's life is in danger. That's just my opinion, though

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I have yet to hear a compelling argument from the pro-choice side beyond aborting a child when the mother's life is in danger. That's just my opinion, though
    What are the compelling arguments for the other side? To be compelled is to be subjectively swayed, based on the persuasive prowess of the speaker - that is, how well one subjectively justifies their epistemology. If you yourself were pro-choice, your opinion would be reversed, I am sure.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Yes, that is all I meant. One need not be directly involved in a situation to form an opinion on it - I know I am sick at times, without having an M.D. I merely think it dangerous to abstract things without considering those who are actually affected by our decisions. Somebody had made a comment that rape-births are a 'non-issue'; I merely meant to say that it is in fact an issue to those that suffer through it.
    I understand why he said that. If he sees abortion as wrong, the circumstances don't matter, but as I said in the part above that I added: the abortion question needs to be resolved on some level through compromise. Zealots on both sides would disagree, but the issue has become akin to putting a finger in a bullet wound every time its brought up by either side.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I have yet to hear a compelling argument from the pro-choice side beyond aborting a child when the mother's life is in danger. That's just my opinion, though
    It's called "it's none of your business" until you can prove beyond sentimentality that there is an actual thinking being (not a potential identity, etc.) that is worth the cost of forcing a woman to carry to term and birth (risking life) an unwanted pregnancy.

    Put it this way, at 2 days there is ZERO brain activity. No thought. Identity. No Dreams. nothing.

    Now, before you bring in the unproven concept of "soul", which will never be anything but subjective belief, as argument you must prove it. Until then, disregard it in the case of argument.

    Simply put, in spite of the potential of a group of cells to one day form a human being, for now (very early term) it is nothing of the sort and, as a parasite the host has a right to end the one-sided relationship for any reason she so chooses, while legisators and others do not have that right to force.

    (messiest argument ever, but I have a 10 minute break I am taking before getting back to work.)
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I have yet to hear a compelling argument from the pro-choice side beyond aborting a child when the mother's life is in danger. That's just my opinion, though
    Here's some compelling arguments:

    1. If you outlaw abortion, maybe I'll just keep doing belly flops/starving myself/taking crack/use a coat hanger until the baby dies/miscarries. Like it or not, the mother has control of their own body.

    2. Illegal abortions are implicitly more dangerous than legal ones. Prior to abortion being legalized, this was a serious problem.

    3. Do you really want one more democrat voter? (sorry, that was wrong)

    If it was up to me, it should be decided at the state level. It would be legal in some states, and illegal in others. Everybody wins and everybody loses.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    It's called "it's none of your business" until you can prove beyond sentimentality that there is an actual thinking being (not a potential identity, etc.) that is worth the cost of forcing a woman to carry to term and birth (risking life) an unwanted pregnancy.

    Put it this way, at 2 days there is ZERO brain activity. No thought. Identity. No Dreams. nothing.

    Now, before you bring in the unproven concept of "soul", which will never be anything but subjective belief, as argument you must prove it. Until then, disregard it in the case of argument.

    Simply put, in spite of the potential of a group of cells to one day form a human being, for now (very early term) it is nothing of the sort and, as a parasite the host has a right to end the one-sided relationship for any reason she so chooses, while legisators and others do not have that right to force.

    (messiest argument ever, but I have a 10 minute break I am taking before getting back to work.)
    Edit: MUST RESIST!

    In closing, I'll just say that yes, it is my business; it is the business of all of us. The ending of a human life, whenever that life may begin, is our business.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Edit: MUST RESIST!

    In closing, I'll just say that yes, it is my business; it is the business of all of us. The ending of a human life, whenever that life may begin, is our business.
    Agreed....the problem we have is defining when that point in time is.

    Are you one of those that believe that as soon as the sperm enters the egg it is now a human life, and therefore The Pill is murder?

    If not, why not?

    I am not disagreeing with that issue, just at what point. I think you will find a large majority of the pro-choice adherents to be of similar mindset.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  14. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Agreed....the problem we have is defining when that point in time is.

    Are you one of those that believe that as soon as the sperm enters the egg it is now a human life, and therefore The Pill is murder?

    If not, why not?

    I am not disagreeing with that issue, just at what point. I think you will find a large majority of the pro-choice adherents to be of similar mindset.
    No, I am not, but I certainly see where they stand. Their reasoning, and it's true, is that once the sperm enters the egg there is a specific and individual DNA identity that is unlike any other, hence making it an individual. As I said earlier though, for me, once the heart beats, it's a human.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    No, I am not, but I certainly see where they stand. Their reasoning, and it's true, is that once the sperm enters the egg there is a specific and individual DNA identity that unlike any other, hence making it an individual. As I said earlier, for me, once the heart beats, it's a human.
    I understand your position...for ME it would be when there is distinct brainwave activity and reactions to stimulus (roughly), and I would resist (violently, if necessary) your attempts to legislate your definition (and of course, laws) into my and my wife's decisions.

    Which is where the mess and over-defensiveness comes from.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
  16. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Allow me to explain my comments: I interpret you to take an absolute position on abortion - that is, it always is, and always will be, murder. Now, despite the fact you claim to have sympathy and compassion for those affected - and, being that it is you, I wholeheartedly believe you - that is a judgment: You are making a discretionary stand that it is never justified. In such an instance, what rational appeal could I make to sway you from your position? I assume none.
    I stand on my assertion that abortion is taking a life. Don't let the word murder, of course used to convey a more gruesome and or horrific atrocity or offense, suggest that I am emphatically against choice. Which I have never stated.
    In respects to prerequisite, you know as well as I do making objective qualifications will gloss over some instance or another - they always do. Such is why these decisions are discretionary; in the specific case of Post-Viability, the mother's health is the prerequisite condition, to be made by the attending physician, on whether or not the child is to be aborted. In respects to the other decisions, such opinions are necessarily formed individually, on an ad hoc basis. I cannot say I support every instance of abortion, but will say unequivocally I would refuse any measure which seeks to rebuke the woman's right to choose based on a certain percentage of uninformed decisions.
    I can assure you that if my wife's life were in the balance, and we were in agreement - or better yet let me rephrase that - if she desire not to lose her life to save the baby - I would without hesitation AND tremendous DISTRESS - allow the ending of the life of the unborn child - a living human being.

    This would by no means would dismiss the FACT that I took it's innocent life - aka: killed it.

    I am sympathetic and compassionate but I am HORRIFIED of the presidents that will be set by our immoral and unsympathetic, uncompassionate society - there is a decline in this "universal morality" that "intellectual" people tend to live by. It is a moving, shifting and rapidly declining standard.
    Life is a terminal condition.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    I understand your position...for ME it would be when there is distinct brainwave activity and reactions to stimulus (roughly), and I would resist (violently, if necessary) your attempts to legislate your definition (and of course, laws) into my and my wife's decisions.

    Which is where the mess and over-defensiveness comes from.
    I think that's where the differences lie. A lot of people believe that it isn't your or your wife's decision once the child reaches a certain level of development. They view the fetus (after a certain point, which differs as we said) the same as a toddler. They'll say you shouldn't be able to end a life (whatever their definition may be) of an unborn child simply because it resides in a womb; it is is a human life in their eyes. By their reasons you can't kill an unborn child because you don't want it just the same as you can't kill a newborn because you don't want it. It's basically the argument for the human right to life and when that creature becomes developed enough to have that inherent right.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I stand on my assertion that abortion is taking a life. Don't let the word murder, of course used to convey a more gruesome and or horrific atrocity or offense, suggest that I am emphatically against choice. Which I have never stated.I can assure you that if my wife's life were in the balance, and we were in agreement - or better yet let me rephrase that - if she desire not to lose her life to save the baby - I would without hesitation AND tremendous DISTRESS - allow the ending of the life of the unborn child - a living human being.

    This would by no means would dismiss the FACT that I took it's innocent life - aka: killed it.

    I am sympathetic and compassionate but I am HORRIFIED of the presidents that will be set by our immoral and unsympathetic, uncompassionate society - there is a decline in this "universal morality" that "intellectual" people tend to live by. It is a moving, shifting and rapidly declining standard.
    I feel morality necessarily implies a lack of standard - that is, of complete subjectivity. Where our lines of subjectivity happen to interlace, we agree such things are negotiated morality - i.e., Society. To project your specific morality onto the actions of another is unprudent.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I think that's where the differences lie. A lot of people believe that it isn't your or your wife's decision once the child reaches a certain level of development. They view the fetus (after a certain point, which differs as we said) the same as a toddler. They'll say you shouldn't be able to end a life (whatever their definition may be) of an unborn child simply because it resides in a womb; it is is a human life in their eyes. By their reasons you can't kill an unborn child because you don't want it just the same as you can't kill a newborn because you don't want it. It's basically the argument for the human right to life and when that creature becomes developed enough to have that inherent right.
    We don't disagree fundamentally, sir - but where we seem to disagree is at what point the fetus/blastula/cluster of cells/snowflake becomes recognizeably a true being.

    Complete lack of nervous system (with NO corresponding brain activity) is a chunk of meat with potential - a machine progressing towards something, but that is NOT there.

    You may state your disagreement/feelings that this is not the case, that the simply electromechanical action of a heartbeat (a muscle contraction) defines this, but again - hold that standard for yourself. The attempt to legislate your standard onto my behaviour BETTER be accompanied by stronger evidence than "I feel that.." else we have ourselves a genuine problem.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  20. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    We don't disagree fundamentally, sir - but where we seem to disagree is at what point the fetus/blastula/cluster of cells/snowflake becomes recognizeably a true being.

    Complete lack of nervous system (with NO corresponding brain activity) is a chunk of meat with potential - a machine progressing towards something, but that is NOT there.

    You may state your disagreement/feelings that this is not the case, that the simply electromechanical action of a heartbeat (a muscle contraction) defines this, but again - hold that standard for yourself. The attempt to legislate your standard onto my behaviour BETTER be accompanied by stronger evidence than "I feel that.." else we have ourselves a genuine problem.
    Wouldn't it be more responsible to err on the side of caution?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Wouldn't it be more responsible to err on the side of caution?
    Do you have any idea what the cost, in both energy and effort and hardship are? This is not a casual decision - and lives can be ruined or severely compromised.

    Without a brain, there is no identity - and therefore no human being.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  22. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Do you have any idea what the cost, in both energy and effort and hardship are? This is not a casual decision - and lives can be ruined or severely compromised.

    Without a brain, there is no identity - and therefore no human being.

    Seriously? Boo hoo. Yeah, I do know. My single mother raised me and my two siblings while working full time and going to school full time. I ate spaghetti and ramen growing up. She could have and almost did abort me, but she sucked it up and decided that she wasn't going to take me away just to make her life easier or less difficult.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Seriously? Boo hoo. Yeah, I do know. My single mother raised me and my two siblings while working full time and going to school full time. I ate spaghetti and ramen growing up. She could have and almost did abort me, but she sucked it up and decided that she wasn't going to take me away just to make her life easier or less difficult.
    No need to take that attitude...without brain activity (or even a brain) there, for all intents, WAS no you.

    And taking your train of thought further, I would expect your argument can easily be co-opted by those that DO wish to ban the pill as murder, since THEY believe life starts at conception.


    Where does it end?
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  24. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    No need to take that attitude...without brain activity (or even a brain) there, for all intents, WAS no you.
    I simply disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Where does it end?
    It doesn't.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I simply disagree.



    It doesn't.
    And we come full circle.

    But at least civil.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  26. I simply do not consider it to be a child until there is brain activity. Even after there is brain activity I follow the same line of thinking as B5150. Wrong or right it's how I feel and would base my decisions of off.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    "The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That's the first thing that I'd do." -- Senator Barack Obama, speaking to the Planned Parenthood Action Fund, July 17, 2007

    "Freedom of Choice Act" Index Page

    You asked for it - you got it Toyota!
    To illustrate the level of my own naivete, I TOTALLY thought there was gonna be discussion about BO's (I love the acronym his initials makes) promised first act of Presidency. In addition to the hypocrisy demonstrated by the demographics that overwhelmingly voted for him. Silly me :P

  28. **** freedom of choice. A baby's not a damn choice, it's a gift. **** Obama!

    Freedom to murder? **** that. A reknowned abortionist here in Canada recently got the Order of Canada (LIke a Canadian Congressional Medal of Honor)

    WHAT IN THE HELL IS THE WORLD COMING TO? SERIOUSLY.

  29. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imp...rtion_on_Crime

    Surprised nobody brought that up on either side.

  30. So are you for or against flobot?
  

  
 

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