"The first thing I'd do as president is..."

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
    Well, this is pretty simple really. With the development of science over the years we now know that the embryo at its earliest stages has all the criteria needed to establish the existence of biological life. The embryo has metabolism, the ability to react to stimuli, and cell reproduction. This enough to let us know that the embryo can be called a human being. Also, each embryo is different and set apart by a distinct genetic code. And last time I checked size or level of dependency had nothing to do with classifying someone as a human being.
    Source please.
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  2. I thought level of dependancy decided a lot?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I thought level of dependancy decided a lot?
    Only if you are not the one that it depends on.

    Seriously, just did a refresher, and it looks like even the most rudimentary nervous system development is not until 9 weeks.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  4. Its asinine that Maryland has a 72 hour waiting period to get married, but no waiting period for abortions.

  5. Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
    The waiting period is a good idea. Yes the three days is unfortunate, but what would be more unfortanate is a non-raped pregnant woman having a bad day and deciding to get an abortion, and regretting it the next day.

  7. I'm not aware of any state that doesn't do a rape kit/pregnancy/std testing much sooner than months later but even if that were the case, 3 days wouldn't be much of a difference... I would also hope that having to deal with something as traumatic as rape, there would be a wait period to allow for counseling. When dealing with abortion, it may be even more truamatic than the rape.

    I've delt with a case where a Catholic woman attempted suicide after the abortion but didn't after the rape...

    I'm pro-choice and believe it should be the decision of the mother(there are other exceptions/beliefs within this)

  8. Quote Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
    Well, this is pretty simple really. With the development of science over the years we now know that the embryo at its earliest stages has all the criteria needed to establish the existence of biological life. The embryo has metabolism, the ability to react to stimuli, and cell reproduction. This enough to let us know that the embryo can be called a human being. Also, each embryo is different and set apart by a distinct genetic code. And last time I checked size or level of dependency had nothing to do with classifying someone as a human being.
    So I maybe these embros which are so small women can miscarry them w/o knowing could be surviving in the sewers..along with the allegators flushed down toilets by movie stars. I real life jungle book scenario perhaps

    Everything is in place for it to someday survive on its own, but it doesnt have a snowballs chance in hel| outside the mothers womb

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.
    My point is that marriage is reversible and there is a waiting period of 72 hours. Abortion is in no way reversible and there is no waiting period required.

    I'm sure the justification for the marriage waiting is that you wouldn't want to do something you'd regret. It seems that an abortion should get at least the waiting period, as the potential for regret is greater since its an action that can't be undone.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by whiskers View Post
    So I maybe these embros which are so small women can miscarry them w/o knowing could be surviving in the sewers..along with the allegators flushed down toilets by movie stars. I real life jungle book scenario perhaps

    Everything is in place for it to someday survive on its own, but it doesnt have a snowballs chance in hel| outside the mothers womb
    a 1 year old wouldn't survive on it's own either. Can we kill it then? How about a 1 week old?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    a 1 year old wouldn't survive on it's own either. Can we kill it then? How about a 1 week old?
    I wouldnt feel too comfortable with it. ha

    Your comment actually isnt a silly one. Almost the same concept really. The issue is just where is the cut off for life and non life. There really isnt one. I guess its more like alive and less-alive (like fatal and less-fatal weapons classifications).
    If I jack off am I a murderer?


    (I'm not trying to argue with you or anything Rugger. I'm not someone passionate about Prochoice by any means)

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I thought level of dependancy decided a lot?
    So a paraplegic is not a human being because it has a very high level of dependency on others...?
    Armed to the teeth.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Well, I am quite sure if you were raped and found out you were pregnant several months later, you would definitely want to wait an additional three days for the child to be aborted.

    This is really almost a non-issue. Only 2-3% of rape cases actually lead to impregnation. So the justification of abortion based on rape is like legalizing the running of red lights, because you may have to run one someday to save someone who is about to commit suicide.
    Armed to the teeth.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Source please.
    Will find it when I have time, but I thought this was common knowledge amongst the intellectually elite.
    Armed to the teeth.

  15. Your response to my 'question' makes no sense... It was a question.

  16. Apparently I misunderstood your question, my apologies. Sometimes it is hard to tell the tone of the question over the internet.
    Armed to the teeth.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Source please.
    http://www.gfmer.ch/Medical_educatio...rat_review.pdf
    Armed to the teeth.

  18. A paper on in vitro fertilization and viability of embryos?
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  19. lol..ooops. sorry dsade. I have a crap load of .pdf's. let me find my source for you....
    Armed to the teeth.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by manifesto View Post
    lol..ooops. sorry dsade. I have a crap load of .pdf's. let me find my source for you....


    No worries...I'm not getting worked up on this one.

    /must be the PEA I just took.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
  21. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Exactly where the problem arises...when does it qualify as being classified as a "human being"?
    Let's consider the facts in the matter that bring IT to existence in the first place.

    Two human beings with healthy function reproductive systems cause the sperm of a male human being to fertilize the egg of a female human being.

    It's would not be a leap of logic or reason to consider it a fact that if two human beings participate in the act of human reproduction that they are partaking in the process of human reprodcution. They are replicating - reproducing an other human being.

    Let's further discuss the idea of when something is classified a human being. The physiological premise that you present is - at what state of development of this replication is IT considered a human being?

    I proposed that it is qualified a human being first and foremost as it is a product of the process of human reproduction - replicating - a human being.

    When human beings replicate there are several states of development in the process. As stated there is the fertilization process. Then comes the gestation period where the human fertilized egg of the human being becomes a human embryo. The human embryo progresses along the process of development as a human fetus and so on until it is considered full term gestation human.

    Now lets consider further this process. A human fetus or human baby comes into the world through "human child birth". Yet it is only a human infant newborn. There are many phases that it will undergo in development...which I am not going to recite because I have not the medical knowledge to recite these in pediatric terminology.

    But lets further follow the process. A human child spends most years in human development - human pre-adolescence, human puberty, human adulthood and so forth.

    At what stage is the human development process complete that this IT can be considered a "human being". Is it before human puberty, when it's human reproductive organs are functional after human puberty, or does it take place later in life into it's a human teenager - early twenties when it's fully formed human body further process it's human development until it possess a fully developed human brain - integral part of the human CNS?

    Human beings reproduce human beings. The process of human reproduction begins at the fertilization of a human egg where the process of human gestation begins. The human development processes only begins at fertilization and continued development of a human being takes place many years after gestation.

    To qualify a time during the human gestation period that a fertilized human egg can be slaughtered is equal to suggesting that there is a time qualified at any other time after the human gestation period and the subsequent human development process that a human may be slaughtered.

    Fact - human beings reproduce human beings.

  22. For me as soon as there's a heart flicker, it's a living human.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    Let's consider the facts in the matter that bring IT to existence in the first place.

    Two human beings with healthy function reproductive systems cause the sperm of a male human being to fertilize the egg of a female human being.

    It's would not be a leap of logic or reason to consider it a fact that if two human beings participate in the act of human reproduction that they are partaking in the process of human reprodcution. They are replicating - reproducing an other human being.

    Let's further discuss the idea of when something is classified a human being. The physiological premise that you present is - at what state of development of this replication is IT considered a human being?

    I proposed that it is qualified a human being first and foremost as it is a product of the process of human reproduction - replicating - a human being.

    When human beings replicate there are several states of development in the process. As stated there is the fertilization process. Then comes the gestation period where the human fertilized egg of the human being becomes a human embryo. The human embryo progresses along the process of development as a human fetus and so on until it is considered full term gestation human.

    Now lets consider further this process. A human fetus or human baby comes into the world through "human child birth". Yet it is only a human infant newborn. There are many phases that it will undergo in development...which I am not going to recite because I have not the medical knowledge to recite these in pediatric terminology.

    But lets further follow the process. A human child spends most years in human development - human pre-adolescence, human puberty, human adulthood and so forth.

    At what stage is the human development process complete that this IT can be considered a "human being". Is it before human puberty, when it's human reproductive organs are functional after human puberty, or does it take place later in life into it's a human teenager - early twenties when it's fully formed human body further process it's human development until it possess a fully developed human brain - integral part of the human CNS?

    Human beings reproduce human beings. The process of human reproduction begins at the fertilization of a human egg where the process of human gestation begins. The human development processes only begins at fertilization and continued development of a human being takes place many years after gestation.

    To qualify a time during the human gestation period that a fertilized human egg can be slaughtered is equal to suggesting that there is a time qualified at any other time after the human gestation period and the subsequent human development process that a human may be slaughtered.

    Fact - human beings reproduce human beings.
    Well said B...
    Armed to the teeth.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by whiskers View Post
    The waiting period is a good idea. Yes the three days is unfortunate, but what would be more unfortanate is a non-raped pregnant woman having a bad day and deciding to get an abortion, and regretting it the next day.
    My point is that marriage is reversible and there is a waiting period of 72 hours. Abortion is in no way reversible and there is no waiting period required.

    I'm sure the justification for the marriage waiting is that you wouldn't want to do something you'd regret. It seems that an abortion should get at least the waiting period, as the potential for regret is greater since its an action that can't be undone.
    This is really almost a non-issue. Only 2-3% of rape cases actually lead to impregnation. So the justification of abortion based on rape is like legalizing the running of red lights, because you may have to run one someday to save someone who is about to commit suicide.
    All three of you have experience as impregnated rape victims, correct? As I am quite sure none of you have, let us refrain, out of respect for those who do have experience in this particular field, from making objective statements on what is, and what is not an issue. Shall we?

    Now, the point which all three of you, and a few others in this thread are missing, is that Post-Viability Abortions are not a free-for-all kill order. They are to be used with the utmost discretion, in the most dire circumstances. I would hope those with especially stringent religious biases would provide better qualifications for justifying one life over another.

    Again, I post this video:

  25. Unbreakable
    David Dunn's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Now, the point which all three of you, and a few others in this thread are missing, is that Post-Viability Abortions are not a free-for-all kill order. They are to be used with the utmost discretion, in the most dire circumstances. I would hope those with especially stringent religious biases would provide better qualifications for justifying one life over another.
    I've not missed it and have emphasized that the current verbiage of "distress" is very ambiguous and as it stands is left to the discretion of whom? Abortionist medical practitioner? Anti-abortion medical practitioner? The distressed women? A board of review of abortion rights activists? A board of review of anti-abortion activists?

    One case sets president. One president sets motions. One motion can rectify or amend. One amendment...and so on.

    Edit: BTW I am not looking at this through any religious or faith glasses. I'm looking at this procedurally - what's the process and procedure?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    All three of you have experience as impregnated rape victims, correct? As I am quite sure none of you have, let us refrain, out of respect for those who do have experience in this particular field, from making objective statements on what is, and what is not an issue. Shall we?

    Now, the point which all three of you, and a few others in this thread are missing, is that Post-Viability Abortions are not a free-for-all kill order. They are to be used with the utmost discretion, in the most dire circumstances. I would hope those with especially stringent religious biases would provide better qualifications for justifying one life over another.
    Being an Atheist I have no religious bias. All I said was that in Maryland, by law I have to wait 3 days to get married, but I can get an abortion this afternoon. I don't agree with the marriage waiting period, but I think if you can justify that, there's no reason not to justify a waiting period on abortions. Why is marriage a decision that requires time to contemplate, but not abortion?

    As far as the, "you've never been raped, so this is none of your business" argument, I think that's an attempt to circumvent a moral question that applies to society, not just the pregnant woman. Why do those who have never served care if there are gays in the military? Because it is a question of societal values and principles on both sides, its not merely a military policy.

  27. Is a rape child worth less than a child conceived intentionally?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by B5150 View Post
    I've not missed it and have emphasized that the current verbiage of "distress" is very ambiguous and as it stands is left to the discretion of whom? Abortionist medical practitioner? Anti-abortion medical practitioner? The distressed women? A board of review of abortion rights activists? A board of review of anti-abortion activists?

    One case sets president. One president sets motions. One motion can rectify or amend. One amendment...and so on.
    In this particular discussion, apparently that discretion is up to you. Is it not? I assume so, given the very binary judgment on abortion you are making herein.

    I also comically enjoy the manner in which regret is being synonymously interchanged with mistake in this instance. Is it not being considered that at times a woman regrets the situation as a whole, but undergoes the abortion as a deliberate act? Abortions are not as happy-go-lucky as they are being made to seem.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post

    As far as the, "you've never been raped, so this is none of your business" argument, I think that's an attempt to circumvent a moral question that applies to society, not just the pregnant woman. Why do those who have never served care if there are gays in the military? Because it is a question of societal values and principles on both sides, its not merely a military policy.
    Ah, Rob! What would a debate be without you deliberately misrepresenting my words, and painting me with making an argumentum ad populum (appeal to the base)?

    You were painting it as a non-issue, and I was merely circumventing your ignorance and pointing out it may (possibly, you think?) be an issue for those who are affected.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    Is a rape child worth less than a child conceived intentionally?
    Ah, yes, more fallacies! Where did I say as such? Where did I imply worth anywhere within this discussion? I would enjoy your attempts to show me where I have.

    Abortion is a reality, not a moral abstraction. I am sure women heading into an Abortion Clinic are more than interested in your philosophical permutations on the subject, Rugger. I am quite sure, just as they are contemplating the severity of their actions and the ramifications therein, their first thought is the philosophical implications of worth vs., non-worth! A pragmatist you are, sir.
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