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Is Sarah Palin a Creationist?

  1.  09-11-2008  10:52 AM
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    Is Sarah Palin a Creationist?


    A littl harsh, but legitimate questions to ask...

    Is Sarah Palin a Creationist?
    By Massimo Pigliucci, Scientific Blogging

    posted: 01 September 2008 03:31 pm ET


    Sarah Palin, John McCain's choice for Vice President should he win the November elections, is a worrisome character from the point of view of science education. It is hard to tell whether Palin herself is a creationist or not and, frankly, that's far less important than the policy positions she holds in the matter. (Though, of course, having a Vice President who is deluded about basic aspects of reality would not be exactly reassuring. Oh, right, we already have had something along those lines for the past eight years, though **** Cheney's most dangerous delusions were not about who created the world.)

    An article in the Anchorage Daily News dating back to when Palin was running for governor of that state (hmm, a mere two years ago, talk about experience and being fit to be commander in chief), reports her response to a question during a debate about teaching creationism. Here is the full quote:

    "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both. And you know, I say this too as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject -- creationism and evolution. It's been a healthy foundation for me. But don't be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides."

    Now this is disingenuous at best. Education is not about having "kids debate both sides," since most kids would probably conclude that the earth is flat and at the center of the universe (after all, the sensorial evidence is overwhelming in favor of the flat-earth, Ptolemaic system). Education is, at its core, about two things: a) We want our students to have access to the best of what humanity has produced, be that in science, philosophy, literature, economics or what have you. b) We want to provide students with the necessary tools to engage in critical thinking and serious analysis of whatever claim comes under their scrutiny.

    According to criterion (a), "teaching both" isn't going to cut it, because creationism is simply not even in the ballpark of the best ideas ever produced by humanity. On the contrary, it is superstitious nonsense that harks back to an earlier era of ignorance about how the world works. But things aren't much rosier for creationists under criterion (b) either, despite all the talk about "teaching the controversy." Learning critical thinking is not a matter of being exposed to a "fair and balanced" view of everything and be told "you decide." Rather, it proceeds through learning about logic, about assessing evidence, and about the many ways in which human senses and reasoning abilities can fail us if we are not on guard. If students really do assimilate all of that, just one look at creationist claims would make it painfully clear that they don't need to be further entertained.

    Unlike Mike Huckabee (who is also now campaigning for McCain), Palin was at least smart enough not to outright claim that she does not accept evolution. The former governor of Arkansas plainly stated that "I believe god created the heavens and the earth," and that he "wasn't there when he did it, so how he did it, I don't know." These are lines straight out of the Institute for Creation Research talk book, which explains why "Left Behind" author Tim LaHaye said during the Republican primaries that Huckabee was "the most electable candidate who shares our commitment."

    And therein lies the problem: exactly what are Republicans committed to when it comes to science and education? To raise a nation of ignorant bigots whose understanding of the world is no better than that of a tribe of ancient middle eastern people wandering around the desert thousands of years ago? To allow individual states to decide just how misinformed about science their citizens can be? That way if you are from Alaska, Alabama, Mississippi or a variety of other places along the Ignorance Belt you can keep falling behind in quality of life and ability to compete in a world where science plays an increasingly central role in our lives. Now, there's a platform worthy of LaHaye and his readers.

    These are questions that Mrs. Palin and Mr. McCain have to answer to voters before the November election. But considering that they disagree about some of those answers, perhaps the two should first get better acquainted and straighten things out a bit. They've got two months to do it.



  2.  09-11-2008  03:34 PM
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    There are a lot more creationists in this country than I think you are giving credit. I hope they make it an issue.




    About origins
    Public beliefs about evolution and creation

    Beliefs of American adults -- 1991 to 2007:

    According to Newsweek in 1987, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000 U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." That would make the support for creation science among those branches of science who deal with the earth and its life forms about 0.14% 5 However, the American public thinks very differently.

    The Gallup Organizations periodically asks the American public about their beliefs on evolution and creation. They have conducted a poll of U.S. adults in 1982, 1991, 1993 and 1997. By keeping their wording identical, each year's results are comparable to the others.

    Results for the 1991-NOV-21 to 24 poll were:
    Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic Evolution
    Group of adults God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
    Everyone 47% 40% 9%
    Men 39% 45% 11.5%
    Women 53% 36% 6.6%
    College graduates 25% 54% 16.5%
    No high school diploma 65% 23% 4.6%
    Income over $50,000 29% 50% 17%
    Income under $20,000 59% 28% 6.5%
    Caucasians 46% 40% 9%
    African-Americans 53% 41% 4%

    1997-NOV data is little changed. Note the massive differences between the beliefs of the general population and of scientists:
    Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic Evolution
    Group of adults God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation. Man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life. God had no part in this process.
    Everyone 44% 39% 10%
    Scientists 5% 40% 55%

    The "scientist" group would presumably include biologists and geologists. But it would also include persons with professional degrees in fields unrelated to evolution, such as computer science, chemical engineering, physics, etc.

    Political science professor George Bishop of the University of Cincinnati published a paper in 1998-AUG listing and interpreting 1997 poll data.

    "Bishop notes that these figures have remained remarkably stable over time. These questions were first asked about 15 years ago, and the percentages in each category are almost identical. Moreover, the profiles of each group has been constant. Just as when these questions were first asked 15 years ago, creationists continue to be older, less educated, Southern, politically conservative, and biblically literal (among other things). Women and African-Americans were more likely to be creationists than whites and men. Meanwhile, younger, better educated, mainline Protestants and Catholics were more likely to land in the middle as theistic evolutionists." 1

    A late 2006 poll by CBS showed that:

    "Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. ... Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all."

    Poll results:
    Belief system Creationist view Theistic evolution Naturalistic Evolution
    Group of adults God created humans in [their] present form. Humans evolved, [but] God guided the process." Humans evolved [but] God did not guide [the] process.
    Everyone 55% 27% 13%
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  3.  09-11-2008  04:49 PM
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    Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    Support for evolution is more heavily concentrated among those with more education and among those who attend religious services rarely or not at all."
    boy the bolded certainly does say a lot.
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  4.  09-11-2008  06:59 PM
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    Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    boy the bolded certainly does say a lot.

    That a scientific theory is more supported by scientists? Yeah, it really says a lot...or did you mean something else?
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  5.  09-11-2008  07:56 PM
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    I don't understand why so many people believe that science and religion have to be mutually exclusive. If you are a creationist it is entirely possible that when God created the universe he did it with a "big bang" On the flip side if your beliefs are entirely scientific; was not the big bang a form of creation? Even the most learned physicist knows that all of the laws of physics can be traced back to the big bang, but as they near that specific point they all break down.

    Stephen Hawking himself in his book "A Brief History of Time" acknowledged the fact that the more he learned about the workings of the universe the more convinced he was that there was some underlying wisdom in its design.

    My point in this is that if one can get past their own unbendable beliefs they can acknowledge the fact that quite possibly religion and science can coexist and perhaps that they were meant to.

  6.  09-11-2008  07:59 PM
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    Even to the point of rectifying the dispute about the age of the universe?
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  7.  09-11-2008  08:13 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Even to the point of rectifying the dispute about the age of the universe?
    Yes, many religious scholars point to the idea that the genesis story isn't hard fact, but in fact a story. It is unknown if the "days" in the genesis story were meant to represent an actual full day, or much longer. Bottom line is arguing creation v. evolution is pointless because religious types have one thing that negates all the scientific evidence, faith.

  8.  09-11-2008  08:20 PM
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    Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    religious types have one thing that negates all the scientific evidence, faith.
    Negates?

    I think not. They can substitute faith in direct contradiction to scientific evidence almost bordering on fact, which is what makes them so scary.

    Sure, just make up anything you want then claim Faith, and imply that it has just as much validity as science.
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  9.  09-11-2008  08:22 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Negates?

    I think not. They can substitute faith in direct contradiction to scientific evidence almost bordering on fact, which is what makes them so scary.

    Sure, just make up anything you want then claim Faith, and imply that it has just as much validity as science.
    I guess you just don't get it.

  10.  09-11-2008  08:23 PM
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    Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    I guess you just don't get it.
    Apparently not, yet faith sort of gives one an escape clause from logic and reason, doesn't it?

    How convenient.
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  11.  09-11-2008  08:25 PM
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    i like dr p's quote on this topic from another thread.....

    Originally Posted by Dr. Packenwood View Post
    Any type of religious belief will often involve circular logic. You can't beat someone that insists on using circular logic. You can only win in your head because they'll never concede.

  12.  09-11-2008  08:28 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Even to the point of rectifying the dispute about the age of the universe?
    If that one was for me, I'll answer it as best as I can, but I don't know if it will be an answer at all.

    I don't think it matters in terms of my religious beliefs how old the universe is. I am no biblical scholar, but the Bible lays out the creation story over a period of six days. Was that six days as you and I know them? Who knows. In the grand scheme of things if you truly belief that God created the heavens and the earth, does it matter? I know this falls into the whole argument of taking the Bible literally or figuritively and I suppose I fall into a category that takes it as both. In many cases the bible uses stories or parables to make a point or to speak to a certain truth. Does the fact that in those cases they are stories make their points any less true? For example, if an author writes a story about the horrors of war by giving examples instead of the exact incidents does that mean that the horrors of war are any less true?

    So, let's say God created the heavens and the earth but it took place with a big bang and the earth developed over billions of years. In this case science and religion would both be correct.

    Anyway, I hope I didn't confuse with my answer or lack thereof. Science v religion is something that I struggle with in my own faith and I have come to the conclusion that one does not exclude the other.

  13.  09-11-2008  08:29 PM
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    Originally Posted by Hank Vangut View Post
    i like dr p's quote on this topic from another thread.....
    And the best part is that they don't care because they believe in something bigger than themselves and don't need anyone to prove it or disprove it to them. So in reality you're kicking yourselves just trying to start a debate.

  14.  09-11-2008  08:33 PM
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    Originally Posted by Rugger View Post
    And the best part is that they don't care because they believe in something bigger than themselves and don't need anyone to prove it or disprove it to them. So in reality you're kicking yourselves just trying to start a debate.
    In the context of someone askin us to vote for them and place them in a position of power which requires rational decisions, I disagree.
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  15.  09-11-2008  08:35 PM
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    Originally Posted by atjnutrition2 View Post

    So, let's say God created the heavens and the earth but it took place with a big bang and the earth developed over billions of years. In this case science and religion would both be correct.

    Anyway, I hope I didn't confuse with my answer or lack thereof. Science v religion is something that I struggle with in my own faith and I have come to the conclusion that one does not exclude the other.
    While I come to a different conclusion, and think this unlikely, I do not exclude the possibility completely.

    I have no problems with this viewpoint at all.

    However, you don't strike me as "we're in the ME to fulfill the lead in to Armageddon" kind of person.
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  16.  09-11-2008  08:41 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    In the context of someone askin us to vote for them and place them in a position of power which requires rational decisions, I disagree.
    If small town USA overwhelmingly believes in creationism, why is it wrong to teach it in a small town USA school?

    I don't believe in god or creationism, but I do believe that public school curriculum should be representative of the beliefs of the public who attends.

  17.  09-11-2008  08:46 PM
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    Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    If small town USA overwhelmingly believes in creationism, why is it wrong to teach it in a small town USA school?

    I don't believe in god or creationism, but I do believe that public school curriculum should be representative of the beliefs of the public who attends.
    It's called Federal Tax Money, and you cannot take my money to teach your religious beliefs.

    And then again, are you saying 100% of such people have identical beliefs, or will you force the minority to sit through things they are opposed to BY LAW (law states children MUST attend school)?

    These are violations of the Bill of Rights.
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  18.  09-11-2008  08:54 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    While I come to a different conclusion, and think this unlikely, I do not exclude the possibility completely.

    I have no problems with this viewpoint at all.

    However, you don't strike me as "we're in the ME to fulfill the lead in to Armageddon" kind of person.

    While I believe in a better place after this one....I have NO desire to speed the end of this place along. I'd like to see my grandkids one day, and I'd like for them to see theirs as well and on and on. Besides.....I'd like to sell a few more of the protein balls too. Although some might say the very existence of the Protein Recovery Balls is a sign of the end of days

  19.  09-11-2008  09:02 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    It's called Federal Tax Money, and you cannot take my money to teach your religious beliefs.

    And then again, are you saying 100% of such people have identical beliefs, or will you force the minority to sit through things they are opposed to BY LAW (law states children MUST attend school)?

    These are violations of the Bill of Rights.
    I completely agree with your tax money comment, but it works both ways. I don't want my tax dollars being used to teach my future children something I don't believe in. How do you propose we remedy this? Where is the line drawn? What about parents who don't believe in certain aspects of historical documentation? It's a difficult issue. More reason to implement a voucher system for public schooling. The only other point I can think of is this: I think the teachings of immediate family surpass those of public school. I was taught evolution throughout my public education, yet I still believe in creation.

  20.  09-11-2008  09:33 PM
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    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    It's called Federal Tax Money, and you cannot take my money to teach your religious beliefs.
    I just said it wasn't my religious belief. Read the post:

    "If small town USA overwhelmingly believes in creationism, why is it wrong to teach it in a small town USA school?

    I don't believe in god or creationism, but I do believe that public school curriculum should be representative of the beliefs of the public who attends."

    Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    And then again, are you saying 100% of such people have identical beliefs, or will you force the minority to sit through things they are opposed to BY LAW (law states children MUST attend school)?

    These are violations of the Bill of Rights.
    How can you say that teaching creationism in public schools violates the Bill of Rights when there were not public schools throughout the US until 1918?

    Public schools began in the US prior to its founding in Puritan schools in New England. Their model laid the groundwork for the American education system. They taught creationism.

    So you're telling me, that public schools which taught religion, that were in place at the time when the founders WROTE the Bill of Rights is a VIOLATION of the Bill of Rights?

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