[dunhill225]

Oh and yea... I'm almost all the way back on most things but just 40 lbs lighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI7_...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKd5...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDPG...e_gdata_player

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldqk...e_gdata_player

Yea, I had to include a Kiwi video. ;-)

[owlicks]

Sweet trap workout on those BB rows. Seriously though, that deadlift was impressive.

[dunhill225]

Sweet trap workout on those BB rows. Seriously though, that deadlift was impressive.

Well thanks for the comment on the stiff deads though that video was posted as a mistake, I thought it was one I have that I went to failure at 6 or 7 reps with that wt but I can't find that on my page. When ever I went up in stiff deads I would go sub failure 1st time to make sure my back was ok with the wt and then push it next w.o.
As far as the rows... I personally think they were pretty strict with great form, no jerking or swinging at all really. Body angle was rt on at about 45*.

I really welcome the feedback so don't take it like I don't. I just wonder what issue you could have with the form? If anything I think it LOOKS like I really didn't go to failure because on any ex that puts the lower back in a potentially precarious position I stop my set as soon as I feel any hint of a break in form.

Again I welcome any and all honest feed back, just wondering what you meant.

[owlicks]

Bent over rows should be an exercise for upper back thickness, at least, that's what it's best suited for. As I'm sure you know, the more upright you are, the more trap and rear deltoid involvement you'll have. With that in mind, the exercise is more effective the closer you are to being parallel with the floor. In my opinion, if it is putting too much strain on your lower back to be parallel to the floor, you are using more weight than you can safely handle.

This guy seems to follow my take on barbell rows too:



and it looks like it worked out okay for him:

[dunhill225]

It is not a safe position for your spine to be in with any reasonable resistance. I am not talking about 4+ like my vid but even 200... Without downward compression helping to keep your spine in line.... You will blow a disc sooner or later. That is why most people blow out discs doing inane things. I was deadlifting around 7 (give or take) in the gym about a week before I blew out 3 discs moving a 30 lb box at work. This is why Yates changed his rowing style and they became known as Yates rows. You need the spine to.have downward pressure to protect it. Ask an ortho that works with athletes and he will tell you the same. On some exs you can hit that position because its a temp position and the intra abdominal pressure can help protect your spine (ex is stiff deads) but it just is not safe.to maintain that position (parallel or close to parallel to the floor).

Is also argue effectiveness... Esp based on pics of arnie.... Compare his back to any state or higher level hvy wt today and their back is better.... Guess how just about all them do rows?

[emekajokammor]

Seems like you guys are looking at it from 2 different angles. Technique and form are different.

Technique can vary from person to person and there is no right or wrong only effective and ineffective.

Form should always be strict as possible and there is correct form and incorrect form that can lead to injury.

Considering DH's injury, a slight tweak in the angle seems like its best suited for him no matter what weight he uses.

Good post tho owlicks, it's very informative.

[owlicks]

It is not a safe position for your spine to be in with any reasonable resistance. I am not talking about 4+ like my vid but even 200... Without downward compression helping to keep your spine in line.... You will blow a disc sooner or later. That is why most people blow out discs doing inane things. I was deadlifting around 7 (give or take) in the gym about a week before I blew out 3 discs moving a 30 lb box at work. This is why Yates changed his rowing style and they became known as Yates rows. You need the spine to.have downward pressure to protect it. Ask an ortho that works with athletes and he will tell you the same. On some exs you can hit that position because its a temp position and the intra abdominal pressure can help protect your spine (ex is stiff deads) but it just is not safe.to maintain that position (parallel or close to parallel to the floor).

Is also argue effectiveness... Esp based on pics of arnie.... Compare his back to any state or higher level hvy wt today and their back is better.... Guess how just about all them do rows?

I suppose it depends on your goals with the exercise as well. I could care less about what kind of weight I'm throwing up, so long as I'm hitting the muscles I'm targeting effectively. So I'm fine at 205 with strict form because it's hitting the area of my back that I'm aiming for. My lower back is just fine at that weight so long as I keep a proper arch in it and am not slumped over. I just see it as a tool to target my upper back which would be hindered by too much trap involvement. At the end of the day, body composition is my goal, whereas weight might be others' goal.

[dunhill225]

Every time I touch a wt I only have one objective and that is to add muscle to the Target area. I'll agree to disagree but I would urge you to perform your rows chest supported if you want to be parallel to the ground. I understand your views and you may be the rare bird that never has a problem but you won't find any modern BBrs or strength athletes performing them that way and its not just ego but instead safety and effectiveness of the ex. I wish you all the best and hope you grow and never get injured but I also hope you keep an open mind and look into what I said.
Best of luck to ya bro.

[owlicks]

Every time I touch a wt I only have one objective and that is to add muscle to the Target area. I'll agree to disagree but I would urge you to perform your rows chest supported if you want to be parallel to the ground. I understand your views and you may be the rare bird that never has a problem but you won't find any modern BBrs or strength athletes performing them that way and its not just ego but instead safety and effectiveness of the ex. I wish you all the best and hope you grow and never get injured but I also hope you keep an open mind and look into what I said.
Best of luck to ya bro.

Thanks! You too!

[CountryLiftin]

On this note, I have found that I can no longer do heavy rows at full parrellel as I used to pre-injury. I have been playing around with them lately as I have been increasing weight and I am glad I saw this thread/videos. I see how both exercises can be beneficial as long as they are executed safely and correctly. I always did rows at full par. but I do Tbars closer to a 45.

Just wondering what injury/surgery you had to have dunhill. I guess you said you blew 3 discs lifting a box? that doesnt sound enjoyable at all. Glad your making such a good recovery though, and you look like your still working hard. Keep it up man.

[dunhill225]

On this note, I have found that I can no longer do heavy rows at full parrellel as I used to pre-injury. I have been playing around with them lately as I have been increasing weight and I am glad I saw this thread/videos. I see how both exercises can be beneficial as long as they are executed safely and correctly. I always did rows at full par. but I do Tbars closer to a 45.

Just wondering what injury/surgery you had to have dunhill. I guess you said you blew 3 discs lifting a box? that doesnt sound enjoyable at all. Glad your making such a good recovery though, and you look like your still working hard. Keep it up man.

I had a micro disc ectomy... They trimmed the squished out discs. Doc said they were shocked by the amount of arthritis I have in my back. Damn work man's comp took almost 1&1/2 years to approve the surgery and doc says that's what prob caused the arthritis... Doc wanted to remove discs and do a fusion but I can't do that at 41... At 65? Maybe ... but not yet.

As far as the rows. Without the downward pressure of being at 40-45* you are risking your discs. I would almost guaranty that you could search YouTube all day and not find a top amateur or pro that does them at parallel. If you talk to a doc that works with athletes they will tell ya what I said. It don't really matter to me how people do them... I just try to save people from the pain of herniated discs.... It ain't a fun thing.

I hope your back problems heal up for ya and don't get worse bro. Best of luck to ya man.

[CountryLiftin]

I had a micro disc ectomy... They trimmed the squished out discs. Doc said they were shocked by the amount of arthritis I have in my back. Damn work man's comp took almost 1&1/2 years to approve the surgery and doc says that's what prob caused the arthritis... Doc wanted to remove discs and do a fusion but I can't do that at 41... At 65? Maybe ... but not yet.

As far as the rows. Without the downward pressure of being at 40-45* you are risking your discs. I would almost guaranty that you could search YouTube all day and not find a top amateur or pro that does them at parallel. If you talk to a doc that works with athletes they will tell ya what I said. It don't really matter to me how people do them... I just try to save people from the pain of herniated discs.... It ain't a fun thing.

I hope your back problems heal up for ya and don't get worse bro. Best of luck to ya man.

I can't blame you, the final option for my back was a fusion as well and that scared the hell outa me. haha. sucks about taking so long for your surgery. Glad you seem to be recovering great. I had a destroyed SI joint complex and dislocated joint, I still need to get back to the chiro again to make sure my spine is all good still since I had everything reset. But I had nerve damage pretty bad for about 2 months, and after a bunch of meds and PT I am prolly 80. So I feel ya coming back from an injury. Just had my first leg day 2 days ago and I felt like a puss. going from 400+squats and deads to doing 135 isnt the best motivator.