CONFUSED ABOUT ERASE NEED HELP PLZ
- 01-29-2011, 01:08 AM
CONFUSED ABOUT ERASE NEED HELP PLZ
so, i may be completely wrong about the active ingredient in erase, but is it 7 keto dhea? or a metabolite of that? either way, this study shows a decrease in testosterone AND estrogen....
heres what i found....(someone else found this, i copy and pasted)
1) 7-keto lowers testosterone 15% and estroidal 60%.
2) 7-keto increase thyroid output to NORMAL RANGE ONLY, so if you have healthy thyroid it dosent have any significant on your fat loss program.
3) Many product claims that 7-keto increase thermogenisis, well i found many studies that counter that, and supports BIG CATs theory that 7-keto has no significant thermogenic effects (DHEA dose however).
I also read people saying it reduces cortisol, i searches all studies on it, and find that its only pure speculation. study shows transdermal administration of 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA for five days, and circulating cortisol levels decreased by 7.4%, but the effect was not statistically significant, although it was close Also, in the results reported by Davidson et al., cortisol levels decreased by 7.7% over eight weeks, but again this was not statistically significant. Thus, the present research suggests that 7-oxo-DHEA functionally reduces cortisol levels, but further research should be conducted to confirm this.
Effects of transdermal application of 7-oxo-DHEA on the levels of steroid hormones, gonadotropins and lipids in healthy men.
Sulcova J, Hill M, Masek Z, Ceska R, Novacek A, Hampl R, Starka L.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. email@example.com
The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of 7-oxo-DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) on the serum levels of steroid sexual hormones, gonadotropins, lipids and lipoproteins in men. 7-oxo-DHEA was applied onto the skin as a gel to 10 volunteers aged 27 to 72 years for 5 consecutive days. The single dose contained 25 mg 7-oxo-DHEA. Serum concentrations of testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, androstenedione, luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), total cholesterol, HDL- and LDL-cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoprotein A-I and B and lipoprotein(a) were measured before the beginning and shortly after the end of the steroid application. After the treatment, we noted the following significant changes: a decline of testosterone and estradiol levels, increase of LH, HDL-cholesterol and apolipoprotein A-I levels. The decrease of total cholesterol levels was of the borderline significance. A slight but significant increase was found in apolipoprotein B and lipoprotein(a). The most expressive was the fall of the atherogenic index. We suggest that the gel containing 7-oxo-DHEA might be a suitable drug for improving the composition of the steroid and lipid parameters in elderly men.
Delayed effects of short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on its metabolites, some hormonal steroids and relevant proteohormones in healthy male volunteers.Sulcov? J, Hampl R, Hill M, St?rka L, Nov?cek A.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. firstname.lastname@example.org
Twenty-one healthy male volunteers aged 20-70 years were given transdermally 25 mg of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone daily in the form of an emulgel for 8 consecutive days. Morning blood was collected as follows: before application, and after the first, fourth and eighth doses (days 0, 2, 5 and 9), and then at different time intervals after termination of the treatment (days 16, 23, 37, 51, 72 and 100). Cortisol, testosterone, epitestosterone, estradiol, dehydroepiandrosterone and its sulfate, 7alpha- and 7beta-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone, luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone and sex hormone-binding globulin were measured in blood sera. In the course of treatment 7beta-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone was significantly increased; testosterone and gonadotropins were lowered, but only after the first dose. All other significant changes were observed during the period after termination of the application:7beta-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone remained increased for 28 days, 7alpha-hydroxy-dehydroepiandrosterone, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone-binding globulin were decreased as late as day 63 and 91, respectively. On the other hand, epitestosterone was significantly increased between days 23 and 100. The levels of all other parameters studied were not significantly changed (including cortisol). The study points to an immediate as well as delayed effect of the short-term transdermal application of 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on relevant hormonal parameters.
Molecular differences caused by differentiation of 3T3-L1 preadipocytes in the presence of either dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) or 7-oxo-DHEA.
Gomez FE, Miyazaki M, Kim YC, Marwah P, Lardy HA, Ntambi JM, Fox BG.
Department of Biochemistry, College of Agricultural and Life Sciences, University of Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin 53706, USA.
The effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and 7-oxo-DHEA on the cell size, adiposity, and fatty acid composition of differentiating 3T3-L1 preadipocyte cells are correlated with stearoyl-CoA desaturase (SCD) expression (mRNA and protein levels) and enzyme activity. Fluorescence-activated cell sorting shows that preadipocyte cells treated with methylisobutylxanthine, dexamethasone, and insulin (MDI) plus DHEA comprise a population distribution of predominantly large cells with reduced adiposity. In contrast, cells treated with MDI plus 7-oxo-DHEA comprise a population distribution of almost equal proportions of small and large cells that have an adiposity equivalent to cells differentiated with MDI alone. The cells treated with MDI plus DHEA have significantly reduced levels of total fatty acid, mainly due to a dramatic reduction in the level of palmitoleic (Delta(9)-16:1) acid. The cells treated with MDI plus 7-oxo-DHEA have a significantly increased level of total fat, primarily due to increased levels of Delta(9)-16:1 and palmitic (16:0) acids. At the molecular level, the DHEA-treated cells contain lowered amounts of SCD1 mRNA and antibody-detectable desaturase protein, while 7-oxo-DHEA-treated cells contained elevated levels of SCD1 mRNA and protein. Inhibition of differentiation in DHEA-treated cells was also suggested by a reduction in the mRNA level of the adipogenic gene aP2. At the level of microsomal enzymatic activity, SCD activity was decreased in DHEA-treated cells while the SCD activity was increased in 7-oxo-DHEA-treated cells. The changes in mRNA levels and enzyme activity were concentration-dependent and appeared as early as day 3 of the differentiation protocol. The results show that DHEA and 7-oxo-DHEA have distinct modes of action with respect to the complex transcriptional cascade required for differentiation. Furthermore, differences in the insulin-stimulated uptake of 2-deoxyglucose and in the activity of carnitine palmitoyl transferase observed from either DHEA- or 7-oxo-DHEA-treated cells support the ability of DHEA to produce a thermogenic effect in differentiating preadipocytes, while 7-oxo-DHEA promotes differentiation without other changes typical of thermogenesis
its all copy and pasted.... whatever.... someone please tell me if this would include erase? ... (i have 2 bottles in my room..... i hope i didnt waste money)
- 01-29-2011, 01:15 AM
- 01-29-2011, 02:04 AM
01-29-2011, 07:15 AM
01-29-2011, 10:20 AM
Erase INcreases Testosterone and DEcreases Estrogen (again, in the product write-up).
Some information on 3,7-keto DHEA (the active in Erase) from the FREE TEST write-up:
~Rosie~Regulating Estrogen and Increasing Testosterone via Suicide Aromatase Inhibition: The Role of 3, 7-Keto DHEA:
* 3, 7-Keto DHEA is a naturally-occurring metabolite of dehydroepiandosterone (DHEA), and is a potent aromatase inhibitor with some very unique qualities. Aromatase is an enzyme that transforms testosterone into estrogen, and the more active aromatase is, the more estrogen will ultimately be present. Therefore, aromatase inhibitors significantly decrease the level of estrogen in the body. This is important as increased estrogen in men can signal the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis (HPTA) to shut down the release of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). GnRH signals the production of luteinizing hormone (LH), which signals the production of testosterone. Therefore, increased estrogen levels can lower endogenous testosterone production (21,29,31).
* 3, 7-Keto DHEA has demonstrated strong ability to lower estrogen, thus mitigating this effect. It has a high binding affinity (Ki value = 0.22 mM) to the aromatase enzyme, and binds in an irreversible manner, making it a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. Ki Values measure how efficiently a compound binds to its associated receptor. The lower the Ki value; the higher the binding affinity. This inhibition allows for the production of less estradiol (E2) and estrone (E1) and allows the user of the compound to maintain a higher level of testosterone; hence improving the Testosterone: Estrogen (T:E) ratio. The mechanism through which aromatase inhibitors raise testosterone is fairly simple; the HPTA senses low levels of estrogen, and because the body seeks to maintain homeostasis (it likes to maintain at least some estrogen, even in men), there is a concurrent increase in the amount of testosterone that is being produced, as a way to compensate for the low estrogen levels. The increased testosterone levels normally will result in increased estrogen since there is no estrogen being produced. Essentially, the brain is tricked into trying to produce more estrogen, so it releases more luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) and subsequently more LH, leading to even higher testosterone levels (20,21-23).
* All aromatase inhibitors share this characteristic of positively altering the T:E ratio, and all will raise serum testosterone levels in men, which has been referenced in numerous studies. 3,7-Keto DHEA is comparable in potency to several other commonly available aromatase inhibitors. As explained above, a lower Ki value means higher potency, making it more potent than both Formestane and Exemestane, and very similar to androstentrione (ATD) (31,55).
* 3,7-Keto DHEA is unique from other commonly used aromatase inhibitors in sports supplements in that it is a natural metabolite of 7-Keto DHEA and it cannot directly bind to the androgen receptor. 3,7-Keto DHEA (like 7-Keto DHEA) also cannot convert to testosterone, estrogen, or progesterone via any type of enzymatic reaction, so by strict definition it cannot in any way be considered a prohormone. This clearly differentiates it from other recently banned products that allow for the direct conversion to a controlled substance in the body (in either in trace amounts or full-scale conversion). This can not occur with 3,7-Keto DHEA, as it is formed naturally in humans from 7-Keto DHEA and can be readily found in humans in the amount of 5-7 ug/day (23-24).
01-29-2011, 01:49 PM
rosie, i have a difficult time reading product write ups because i dont believe them!
there are so many products out there that have outrageous claims like "increases testosterone 930%" ...
what is the difference between 3,7 keto dhea and 7 keto dhea? from what i just read my understanding is that 3,7 is a metabolite of 7 keto .......
either way im just trying to find some more information about this stuff before i start using it...
i KNOW the company will tell me "its great" and all... but look at ATD, howcome the labels didnt say its not only a potent ai, but acts as an anti-androgen... (and that you will fail a drug test for bold metabolites) < they have since added the last part
look at all these other BS supplements with their ridiculous product claims.... its very hard for me to differentiate the garbage from a potentially decent supplement, because EVERY company makes their product "sound" good....
do you happen to know of any decent studies about the 3,7 keto?>
thanks for your help
01-29-2011, 01:56 PM
the 3 and 7 in 3,7 Keto DHEA aren't just random asss numbers bro. They relate to the specific arangement of the actives on the basic hormonal structure. So while 3,7 keto dhea may seem similar to 7keto dhea it really is not.
01-29-2011, 02:12 PM
01-29-2011, 02:16 PM
01-29-2011, 02:17 PM
01-29-2011, 02:21 PM
exactly...i can always push them... nutra planet new years sale... my boy owns a store down the street.... i can prob get like 50-60 if i give them to him... hed probably sell them for 80-90... but for now, im trying to see if they are worth using.... thanks for your input bro
01-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Just searching this site in particular isn't going to give anyone a good idea of how well a particular supplement works. Especially when the company that manufactures the product is a sponsor.
One that finances a project or an event carried out by another person or group, especially a business enterprise that pays for radio or television programming in return for advertising time.
tr.v. sponĚsored, sponĚsorĚing, sponĚsors
01-29-2011, 02:26 PM
01-29-2011, 02:26 PM
heres the thing tho, how do i know who is actually loving it because they got sent a free bottle from a rep? (i have actually been pmed by reps here to post something positive about their product)
is there any "non-sponsored" reputable bloodwork for erase?
or is it just a bunch of people saying "i can tell its working, because i feel it"
do you happen to know of any studies or pre-post bloodwork ??
01-29-2011, 02:33 PM
01-29-2011, 02:42 PM
I hope you are not including PES in your statement about being PMed by reps. As we never ask for positive feedback, look in the beta stim thread, we obviously want brutal truth.
There has been people post up blood work on their own accord here somewhere.
Studies have been posted showing the most absolutely lowest Ki value of any available product. I am not on my home computer, so I do not have it on hand, but it shouldn't be hard to find on here.
If there is any reason that PES has been less than honest or trustworthy toward you or anyone, please raise the problem with myself or Natty as we bend our ass over backwards to make sure business with PES is a pleasant experience.
The Historic PES Legend
01-29-2011, 02:43 PM
because i got bloodwork done 2 weeks ago, and im not about to spend the money it costs to get MORE bloodwork over a 20 dollar bottle of who knows what.....
did u not comprehend the point of this thread? Im trying to find out if the product is worth using, if it is, i will likely use it, if not ill sell it for more than u will buy it for.
i dont need your additude bro, if u wanna be sarcastic take that sh*t somewhere else please....
01-29-2011, 02:48 PM
No PES reps asked... but other company(s) have.... can you post up any of these studies and where they came from? i cant find much about the active ingredient...
i havent had any issues with PES, i am just having difficulty finding any information that i can go by.......
01-29-2011, 03:03 PM
I take erase. It's solid. I like it. Other people take it. It's solid. They like it.
If you want to sell it for more then you paid for it then by all means go ahead, but turning this into a I wanna poo on some hard working companies head just because is not needed.
Sorry but this thread is starting to look very similar to other threads where people crap on Usplabs.
01-29-2011, 03:04 PM
01-29-2011, 03:21 PM
You see I don't see it as attacking any certain company. It is just someone being skeptical of a new supplement. That is certainly understandable. A lot of people don't want to post anything negative about a sponsored companies product because of backlash like this. Twisting the skeptical persons opinion into something completely different than what was meant. What people can't have opinions and maybe not like every supplement company that is a sponsor on this board?.
....Let me guess, that makes them "Haters"?
01-29-2011, 03:29 PM
Nope not haters but usually after people respond to the concerns that people have it doesn't keep going and get worse.
Research is good. Lord knows I read tons about everything but usually after my questions or concerns have been answered I make a decision. To buy or not to buy.
01-29-2011, 03:30 PM
As the abstract mentioned, "3, 7-Keto DHEA is a naturally-occurring metabolite of dehydroepiandosterone (DHEA)."
Go ahead and do some more research - definitely doesn't hurt and you should anyways. Plus I will echo T-Bone's sentiment on it not being sensible about purchasing something you didn't know or were sure about, regardless of why you got it.
Browse through the references in the abstract I provided you with. Otherwise, Josh may have some he can refer you to.
01-29-2011, 03:42 PM
I liked it, and I payed for it and even bought some more, but like you, Im not getting blood work before, during and after every supplement I try, sometimes you gotta take a leap of faith and I think it worked pretty good. Best of luck in your research, hope you find the answers your looking for.
01-29-2011, 03:43 PM
btw-in my humble opinion erase works great! pes is one of the most respected company's on this board. josh and dadams both have impeccable integrity.
btw-welcome to the board!
01-29-2011, 05:12 PM
I say run a bottle and post YOUR REVIEW! I think everyone gave you all the information they know already so there isnt much more to say besides run it and see how it works for you.
01-29-2011, 05:43 PM
holy fing cow this same BS I see all the dam time oh is this product good just try it write your review good or bad.. for all you folks who want to buy supps do the following
2. have your training and diet in check
3 write a review... if you want too...
why is that so hard!
01-29-2011, 07:08 PM
let me explain something to you... the way you feel on a particular substance does not mean its doing ANYTHING..... studies, and bloodwork mean something... not how you feel bro...
01-29-2011, 07:10 PM
01-29-2011, 07:13 PM
01-29-2011, 07:15 PM
1, why do u like erase, because you FEEL like its working? if this is the case... youre crazy
2. did u get bloodwork?
3. did you take this without doing research and just going on the words of reps and reviews?
i generally try not to take suggestions by word of mouth..
come on guys, im not trying to make this something negative at all... i am simply trying to find some information about this.... im sure between all of us and some google, we might be able to find some bloods or something....
ENOUGH WITH ALL THE BS
01-29-2011, 07:30 PM
I'm ordering my buddy a bottle along with some DAA. He's trying to cut down a weight class for his MMA fighting before he makes his pro debut.
If you'd like, I can add you to my contacts and you can hold onto that bottle for the next month. After he is done with his bottle, I can PM you his results or link you to a thread post.
He has moved up and down weight classes numerous times, so he should have a pretty good feel on how this supplement will aide him in his goals.
01-29-2011, 08:10 PM
i use it as my ai on trt, and it has worked very well for me. haven't had blood drawn for awhile, but i do know it dried up a lot of the water weight i was holding from the test cyp.
01-29-2011, 09:48 PM
thanks for your opinion pal, and thanks for welcoming me to the board
i agree that PES is one of the most respected companies here... but that doesnt mean much..
for your information, it does not matter how long someone has been on a forum.... how do you know i havent been reading for the past 10 years taking notes on what works, and what doesnt??? ... exactly, you have no clue
i would not post up a claim that reps have asked me for a positive review if it never happened.
01-29-2011, 10:15 PM
so far heres is what i have gathered about erase
1. people think its works because they feelit
2. by having doubts and/or asking questions about something i am somehow pooing on a company
3. people like putting random supplements in their body due to hype
4. nobody posted any studies or bloodwork
5. safe to say i probably wont be using erase anytime soon
Originally Posted by swollen87
it is my understanding you are the owner of PES... let me first introduce myself, my name is andrew i am a nsca certified personal trainer... yes i am new to anabolicminds, but this does not make me clueless...
i was on nutraplanet on newyrs and i happend to see a sale on erase... within a 5 minute search, i said screw it... ill buy it and if i dont use it i can always sell it for more...
heres my issue... i am having a hard time finding information/bloodwork about the active ingredient in erase, i am not doubting you or your company, and i am certainly not trying to prevent you from making your money.... the question is, what information about this active ingredient made you use it for this product.... i have had reps from other companies make ridiculous claims about their products doing ridiculous things (had to delete this part to post it) ... im not trying to flame your company, im just having a problem finding any reputable information that isnt "hype"...
do you have any good studies about 3,7?
here is nattydisaster's response
We discovered the compound based on studies on various DHEA derived aromatase inhibitors. The studies can be found only if you have subscribed journal access such as through a school or institution, or if you pay for them.
We cannot give the studies out because they are not available to the public therefore if we give them to the public it is copywrite infringement on the journal
i guess my ?s have been answered thanks to those of u who attempted to help....
01-29-2011, 10:20 PM
01-29-2011, 11:00 PM
On paper and anecdotal reports back up the fact that the active in Erase is an AI. Just because there isnt as much blood work floating around doesnt mean it wont work, how many negative things have you even heard?
A quote from Patrick Arnold when asked about a 6-oxo alternative - "the androsta-3,5-diene7,17-dione appears to have substantial AI properties on paper. i believe its in free test by AN and other products like erase by whoever"
01-29-2011, 11:01 PM
01-29-2011, 11:26 PM
i havent heard, or said anything negative about erase, i am just questioning/researching its effectiveness as an ai.... since when did this become a bad thing?
on the same forum you got that quote, i remember reading patrick arnold saying something along the lines of " PCT is overrated" and that "back in the day they didnt have it"
the only way to know for sure if this ingredient is a decent AI... is to wait until people start bashing it for their raised estrogen levels on their bloodwork, or praising it for doing a good job regulating them....
thebigt stated that he is on trt using test cyp and erase as an ai , i figure a good idea would be for him to post/relay his next blood test results for us to see... he agreed
01-29-2011, 11:28 PM
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