Incarnate - 20% Extract vs. 10% Extract

[Arzi75]

I'm contemplating about whether to buy Incarnate or Super Cissus Rx for my next joint-support supp, but not convinced whether I should opt for the 10% (or 5%) in Super Cissus RX or for the 20% extract of Cissus Quadrangularis in Incarnate.

I recall seeing someone claiming adamantly that 10% extract does not equal "better than 5%" or 20% extract equalling better than a 10% extract, but that it's more like a matter of having "different mixture of steroidal properties/anti-oxidants" - does this hold true?

Also if you'd be kind enough to open up the following statement in your Incarnate write-up: "[We chose to use] a 20% extract because we felt it left a significant portion of the herb intact helping to keep its overall antioxidant effects" as I don't get the "herb being intact" part here?

Also does the better "antioxidant effects" of the 20% extract in Incarnate pertain just to the effects it yields on the joints or are there some other anti-oxidant properties towards overall health etc. not specifically mentioned in the write-up or does it just mean that "we chose the 20% extract over the 10 (or 5)% extract, because a 5-10% extract contains simply less antioxidants"?

What about the amount of ketosterones - does 20% translate to simply more ketosterones than the 10% extract and is it a similar mixture of ketosterones or does the 20% extract contain more or less of some of the ketosterones?

I have had problems with both of my knees (still ongoing), back, right elbow and right shoulder, and recently have had my left shoulder aching like crazy.

I have used glucosamine, chondroitin acid and various NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammarory drugs) like Diclofenac and Celecoxib (more recently) for years, but they only help when I'm using them - any time I try cutting any of them, the pains recur almost immediately, so I'm really hoping that either Incarnate or Super Cissus RX would be potent enough to yield some long-term results instead of just short-term pain relief.

I think I'm going to start a log on the product I choose to buy to see if a Cissus-based product can really outperform a handful of prescription drugs and an assortment of other joint supps in alleviating joint pain.

 

[Palo Alto Labs]

Hey man... Let me try to attempt to answer all of this ...

Also if you'd be kind enough to open up the following statement in your Incarnate write-up: "[We chose to use] a 20% extract because we felt it left a significant portion of the herb intact helping to keep its overall antioxidant effects" as I don't get the "herb being intact" part here?

Much of the information on Cissus has suggested that there is more than one benefitial aspect to the plant. While the plant as an ingredient is measured by its ketosterone content (in this case we use a 20% extract..meaning that each 100mg of Cissus has at least 20mg of ketosterones). But the rest of the plant (the parts that are not ketosterones) have antioxidantal properties as well as other benefits.

Its similar to coffee... you can extract the caffeine from the bean, but then you are leaving all of the antioxidants of the bean behind... ie the other beneficial parts

So we are using a 20% extract, while a higher extract (while readily available) would minimize the other desired properties that Cissus has to offer.

I recall seeing someone claiming adamantly that 10% extract does not equal "better than 5%" or 20% extract equalling better than a 10% extract, but that it's more like a matter of having "different mixture of steroidal properties/anti-oxidants" - does this hold true?

If one product has 2x the extract, than equal amounts of each will yield 2x the active in the higher percentage. Also, you are able to dose less cissus and still get the same (or more) active ketosterones

Basically the reason we dont use a 50%+ extract (or isolating the ketosterones independently) is that the higher extract you get, you have to sacrifice other beneficial parts of the ingredient.

Incarnate is a great product, and for the price, you are also getting Beta Alanine. The combination of the two ingredients at this price is one of the best deals in the industry. Beta alanine is a wonderful ingredient for endurance, strength, and leaning of the body/bodyfat reduction

 

[Arzi75]

Thanks, Dave!

They sure don't call you the THE man around here for nothing! I am flabbergasted and utterly and honestly stunned by the quality and right on pertinency of your answer - I asked for it and you delivered it, dude!

No further questions, your honor!

Btw: I posted the same question you just answered on the USB Labs forum today - just out of curiosity - as the USB Labs is manufacturer of the Super Cissus RX (which features the 10% extract), and got a couple of great answers there, too, specifying the different heath benefits the different extracts offer - based on that discussion in that other thread, I have decided to start my Cissus cycle with Super Cissus RX to get my joint condition fixed, but after about 4 weeks of it, I think I'll switch over to Incarnate to get the best of the awesome anabolic properties the 20% extract contains.

It truly is a shame that you can't get the best of BOTH worlds!

Or like I soliloquized over in the other thread on USB Lab's forum, I just wish one would be able to get all the health benefits attributed to Cissus (weight loss, join health, increased test levels, cortisol suppression etc.) - all equally potently from one extract!

Hmmm... Just got me thinking - what if I were to take the 20% (Incarnate) extract and 10% extract (Super Cissus RX) simultaneously - is that going to be just the sum of their parts (which I believe is 15%) or could one actually get better results taking a 10 % and 20% extracts separately than just consuming a 15% (if such extract even exists) extract?

Ok, stream of consciousness taking over, as it is - once again - quite late in Finland, so, apologies for any incoherencies the babbling above might (and most likely does) contain!

 

[Palo Alto Labs]

Thanks man... i def dont want to come off like im dogging USPLabs because they are great people and have come out with great products...

Ill get to the rest of your post tomorrow morning.. gotta get to the gym!

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Hey Arzi, thought I'd throw this out there. Controlled Labs just came out with a Multivitamin (Orange Triad) that contains --> glucosamine, chondroitin acid. So if you picked that to be your multi, you never would have to come off....just letting you know..

 

[Palo Alto Labs]

Thanks, Dave!

They sure don't call you the THE man around here for nothing! I am flabbergasted and utterly and honestly stunned by the quality and right on pertinency of your answer - I asked for it and you delivered it, dude!

No further questions, your honor!

Btw: I posted the same question you just answered on the USB Labs forum today - just out of curiosity - as the USB Labs is manufacturer of the Super Cissus RX (which features the 10% extract), and got a couple of great answers there, too, specifying the different heath benefits the different extracts offer - based on that discussion in that other thread, I have decided to start my Cissus cycle with Super Cissus RX to get my joint condition fixed, but after about 4 weeks of it, I think I'll switch over to Incarnate to get the best of the awesome anabolic properties the 20% extract contains.

It truly is a shame that you can't get the best of BOTH worlds!

Or like I soliloquized over in the other thread on USB Lab's forum, I just wish one would be able to get all the health benefits attributed to Cissus (weight loss, join health, increased test levels, cortisol suppression etc.) - all equally potently from one extract!

Hmmm... Just got me thinking - what if I were to take the 20% (Incarnate) extract and 10% extract (Super Cissus RX) simultaneously - is that going to be just the sum of their parts (which I believe is 15%) or could one actually get better results taking a 10 % and 20% extracts separately than just consuming a 15% (if such extract even exists) extract?

Ok, stream of consciousness taking over, as it is - once again - quite late in Finland, so, apologies for any incoherencies the babbling above might (and most likely does) contain!

I wouldnt say that this is a problem, but there would be one issue to consider... With the super cissus rx, you can choose how much you care to dose since they are individual capsules. With the Incarnate, you pretty much NEED to take 6 capsules a day to take advantage of the Beta Alanine benefits.
This would really depend on how many caps a day of Cissus RX you are planning on taking?
Taking Incarnate and Cissus RX would be the equivalent of taking (approx) 4 Cissus RX a day.. if this was the dose you were planning on supplementing, then the combination would not be a bad thing by any means. Plus you would get the best of both worlds with the two extractions. ... just my thoughts

 

[Arzi75]

Hey Arzi, thought I'd throw this out there. Controlled Labs just came out with a Multivitamin (Orange Triad) that contains --> glucosamine, chondroitin acid. So if you picked that to be your multi, you never would have to come off....just letting you know..

B-Jack dude - I didn't get your point here - but never mind that.

I think you might be suggesting that my problem is that I always stock up on the multis on time before I run out of them without ever failing to do so, but usually neglect to do so with the joint supps? And, if the multivits would contain the daily joint support supps, I'd never face the problem of having to go a single day without them?

Hmmm, that might have some truth to it, but I'd say that my problem with joint supps is that I spend so much money on other supps each month that I don't afford to buy everything every month - so the question boils down to when I need to cut some supps, which ones they'd be. Proteins, pre-work out shakes, post-work stuff, multivitamins, anti-oxidants, essential fatty acids, test boosters, diet products, or joints supps?

Hmmm, let me think...

So, the problem is that I usually buy joint supps only when the aching gets so bad that I have no other option, rest of the months are spend my money on other supps.

So, I'd say my main problem with joint support supplementation is just cost. Good quality glucosamine is not exactly inexpensive.

Your thoughtfulness appreciated, though. Thanks! Next time I just might go for a Controlled Labs multivit for added joint support! :thumbsup:

 

[Arzi75]

I wouldnt say that this is a problem, but there would be one issue to consider... With the super cissus rx, you can choose how much you care to dose since they are individual capsules. With the Incarnate, you pretty much NEED to take 6 capsules a day to take advantage of the Beta Alanine benefits.
This would really depend on how many caps a day of Cissus RX you are planning on taking?
Taking Incarnate and Cissus RX would be the equivalent of taking (approx) 4 Cissus RX a day.. if this was the dose you were planning on supplementing, then the combination would not be a bad thing by any means. Plus you would get the best of both worlds with the two extractions. ... just my thoughts

Hey, Dave - interesting take you got on this here - I wasn't expecting a response like this as my question was "just something off the top of my head" - but - hey, why not - I'm not ruling out taking both as a viable alternative to just taking the one or the other!

But from a purely logical - and non-chemical - perspective, is that just in reality equivalent of taking a 15% extract say twice daily if you are taking e.g. one dose 10% extract in the morning and one 20% dose in the evening (or taking e.g. one 10% cap and one 20% always at the same time), and a 15% extract simply will not give you either the full anabolic potential of a 20% extract or the full joint health potential of the 10% extract?

That would sound logical to me that there is no real difference i.e. that you cannot get all the benefits in their fullest extent when taking a low and a high % extract at the same time and keeping the total amount consumed the same - you either compromise the anabolic effects of the higher % extract or the joint healh benefits of the lower % extract.

That's my two cents, but as per your response, I think might order a bottle of Incarnate, too, sooner than expected, to try it out along the Super Cissus RX bottle I ordered last week and received today!

It's Cissus time and I'm gonna log my journey with Super Cissus RX starting probably tomorrow.

So, stay tuned all you Super Supp Freaks out there as I'm gonna deliver and lay it down frank, guys!

 

[Palo Alto Labs]

Hey, Dave - interesting take you got on this here - I wasn't expecting a response like this as my question was "just something off the top of my head" - but - hey, why not - I'm not ruling out taking both as a viable alternative to just taking the one or the other!

Thoughts 'off the top of your head' are typically the most logical.. its how i think all the time

But from a purely logical - and non-chemical - perspective, is that just in reality equivalent of taking a 15% extract say twice daily if you are taking e.g. one dose 10% extract in the morning and one 20% dose in the evening (or taking e.g. one 10% cap and one 20% always at the same time), and a 15% extract simply will not give you either the full anabolic potential of a 20% extract or the full joint health potential of the 10% extract?

IMO since you are taking two different % extracts, you will get the best of both worlds in one.
The 10% will give you all of the benefits that are associated with the 90% of the plant that is not active sterols. Then again the 20% will up the sterol compound in your system (ie more active).. ie it is different from just dosing 15% consistently. (however im not an expert in cissus, but this is my observations from toying with different %'s in the past 6 months to aid my elbow)
Lets be serious.. there is no guaranteed extract % when the body takes the substance and all of a sudden, the light switch is turned on and results are there. At any %, there would be some effects... so eventhough 15% is square in the middle, its not just going to pass through the body unabsorbed and producing zero results. It will be active within the system. I have dosed 5%, 10%, 20%, and 40% extracts... to be honest.. I observed the same joint benefits from 10-20%.. 40% didnt seem to pack anything extra.

You definitely have a healthy thought process and are putting some dormant brain cells to use for me on this thread!!
^^I think all of that makes sense, but ill read over it later and edit if needed.. i have a tendency to run-on when typing fast

 

[Arzi75]

I wouldnt say that this is a problem, but there would be one issue to consider... With the super cissus rx, you can choose how much you care to dose since they are individual capsules. With the Incarnate, you pretty much NEED to take 6 capsules a day to take advantage of the Beta Alanine benefits.
This would really depend on how many caps a day of Cissus RX you are planning on taking?
Taking Incarnate and Cissus RX would be the equivalent of taking (approx) 4 Cissus RX a day.. if this was the dose you were planning on supplementing, then the combination would not be a bad thing by any means. Plus you would get the best of both worlds with the two extractions. ... just my thoughts

Hey Dave, received my bottle of Super Cissus RX yesterday - after studying the directions on the label, I have decided to go for 3 Super Cissus RX caps a day for the time being, but probably will try at least the 4 a day dosage later. (Check out the log, btw, if you have the time, for details on my Super Cissus regimen...)

But once I order (and receive - you can not take the receipt for granted thanks to the happy-go-lucky customs officials in Finland ) the Incarnate, I think I will not have any problem taking, say, 3-4 Cissus RX with 2-4 Incarnate a day.

I don't need to go for 6 on Incarnate as I've got plenty of Beta-Alaine in stock and am currently taking Beta Alanine already up to 5000-6000 mg a day, so what I actually probably need to do is to cut back on my Beta Alanine intake unless you, Sir, recommend that I am to head for the optimum tingling dose of the "quite" tickling 10g a day.

So, after a few weeks, I'd def say 3-4 Super Cissus RX and 2-4 Incarnate caps a day sounds like a plan to me.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

Hey Dave, received my bottle of Super Cissus RX yesterday - after studying the directions on the label, I have decided to go for 3 Super Cissus RX caps a day for the time being, but probably will try at least the 4 a day dosage later. (Check out the log, btw, if you have the time, for details on my Super Cissus regimen...)

But once I order (and receive - you can not take the receipt for granted thanks to the happy-go-lucky customs officials in Finland ) the Incarnate, I think I will not have any problem taking, say, 3-4 Cissus RX with 2-4 Incarnate a day.

I don't need to go for 6 on Incarnate as I've got plenty of Beta-Alaine in stock and am currently taking Beta Alanine already up to 5000-6000 mg a day, so what I actually probably need to do is to cut back on my Beta Alanine intake unless you, Sir, recommend that I am to head for the optimum tingling dose of the "quite" tickling 10g a day.

So, after a few weeks, I'd def say 3-4 Super Cissus RX and 2-4 Incarnate caps a day sounds like a plan to me.

Your plan sounds great.

As far as the Beta-Alanine, 6gs/day is plenty and definitely all you will need, only go up to 10g if you would prefer wasting

Good luck with everything man, and for sure let us know how everything goes.

 

[Palo Alto Labs]

Your plan sounds great.

As far as the Beta-Alanine, 6gs/day is plenty and definitely all you will need, only go up to 10g if you would prefer wasting

Good luck with everything man, and for sure let us know how everything goes.

Exactly... studies have concluded that 4g is ideal for most everyone..including trained athletes over 250lbs. So 'superdosing" will do little more than cause an increased tingle... which results in nothing beneficial to you. You are best off sticking to the 4-6g/day range as any more will just be 'extra'