Seeking OTC Testosterone increase guidance

[Focus5]

I have been in the gym off and on for sometime. I am seeking an OTC Testosterone Enhancing Supplement that will give me fast lean gains, high libido, and high energy, with minimal side effects.

 

[neoborn]

1. Workout hard - There are many different workout regimes, many that work well. Generally: Strength training is in the 6 rep range / Bodybuilding in the 8-10 rep range. - Rep range warmup: 15 ( sets 1 & 2 ) Working: 10, 8, 6 last three sets add drop sets to failure )

2. Fast Efficient Workouts = 1hr - This is not hard and fast but studies have shown that Cortisol rises after 1hr

3. Protein shake immediately after workout and then protein meal with carbs etc within 1hr

4. Creatine - Mono or CEE you decide. Both before and after workout.

5. Daily meals - 5 - 6 day ( including shakes ) protein = 1g per pound of body weight. Meal 1 ( breakies ) is shake plus oatmeal or whatever else you want ( apple is good fibre / system crap mover ), Meal 6 is post workout shake with creatine etc and then solid food meal. Carbs tapered down from morning to evening and fats tapered up from morning to evening. Protein is a constant.

6. Sleep 8 - 10 hrs a night ( very imp for all natural BB'ers )

7. Supps - Do you note the order in which these are and where supps come??? - a) Multivitamin / B complex b) Whey protein c) creatine e) Test boosters / stacks etc

Most importantly do you see the order of these things?

Exercises: Compound movements i.e. two arm two leg exercises.

1. Squats - Biggest muscle and boosts test like crazy, work em hard and see results big time.

2. Deadlifts / Chins / Bent over Rows / Pulldowns - 1st attempt either an palm up or palm down chin at the beginning of your back workout, if you can do one, try two, if you can do 15, add weight. Most important for back is to make the mind / muscle connection. Concentrate ( start with low weight and excellent form ) on getting a good contraction and not swinging with the weight. Calm controlled up down with good squeeze of lats at bottom of rep. All about the connection / squeeze

3. Leg press

4. Flat Bench Dumbell / Barbell - Always swap it up, it takes more muscle etc to do dumbells ( stabilizing muscles etc ) but switch it up - Start with dips to hit lower chest then move to flat bench / incline.

5. Core work - Abs / lower back - work the weaker harder.

This should give you a good idea....Best thing for test.....squats ....good form, warm up well, be careful and grow!

 

[FrankJ]

Activate Extreme.

 

[opfor101]

a good one would be jungle warfare.

 

[Cedarwood]

1. Workout hard - There are many different workout regimes, many that work well. Generally: Strength training is in the 6 rep range / Bodybuilding in the 8-10 rep range. - Rep range warmup: 15 ( sets 1 & 2 ) Working: 10, 8, 6 last three sets add drop sets to failure )

2. Fast Efficient Workouts = 1hr - This is not hard and fast but studies have shown that Cortisol rises after 1hr

3. Protein shake immediately after workout and then protein meal with carbs etc within 1hr

4. Creatine - Mono or CEE you decide. Both before and after workout.

5. Daily meals - 5 - 6 day ( including shakes ) protein = 1g per pound of body weight. Meal 1 ( breakies ) is shake plus oatmeal or whatever else you want ( apple is good fibre / system crap mover ), Meal 6 is post workout shake with creatine etc and then solid food meal. Carbs tapered down from morning to evening and fats tapered up from morning to evening. Protein is a constant.

6. Sleep 8 - 10 hrs a night ( very imp for all natural BB'ers )

7. Supps - Do you note the order in which these are and where supps come??? - a) Multivitamin / B complex b) Whey protein c) creatine e) Test boosters / stacks etc

Most importantly do you see the order of these things?

Exercises: Compound movements i.e. two arm two leg exercises.

1. Squats - Biggest muscle and boosts test like crazy, work em hard and see results big time.

2. Deadlifts / Chins / Bent over Rows / Pulldowns - 1st attempt either an palm up or palm down chin at the beginning of your back workout, if you can do one, try two, if you can do 15, add weight. Most important for back is to make the mind / muscle connection. Concentrate ( start with low weight and excellent form ) on getting a good contraction and not swinging with the weight. Calm controlled up down with good squeeze of lats at bottom of rep. All about the connection / squeeze

3. Leg press

4. Flat Bench Dumbell / Barbell - Always swap it up, it takes more muscle etc to do dumbells ( stabilizing muscles etc ) but switch it up - Start with dips to hit lower chest then move to flat bench / incline.

5. Core work - Abs / lower back - work the weaker harder.

This should give you a good idea....Best thing for test.....squats ....good form, warm up well, be careful and grow!

I agree with Neoborn.. squats, deadlifts.. these naturally boost your body's test.. I see a lot of guys in the gym hitting the upper body but ignoring their scrawny little legs and wondering why they can't get their bench up in the 300s or higher.. believe it or not, hitting your legs will increase your entire body's strength.

Also, totally agree.. supps at the very bottom.

 

[ClintCanada]

I agree that supps are at the bottom . . . but as far as supps go, you can also try Tribulus and 6 oxo.
Also make sure you're not eating an extremely low fat diet -- you need fat to keep your natural test levels up -- just make sure its good fat if possible (mono unsaturated fats) such as olive oil . . .

 

[EasyEJL]

Drive gives the feel of raised testosterone, not sure if it actually raises it tho. It does meet what you are looking for effects wise

 

[neoborn]

Man when I do legs / deads the day after my libido is crazy.

:toofunny: I used to be like that all day long without anything

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[FrankJ]

Personally I feel supps a lot more than deadlifts or squats. Those dont do anything for me and Ive been doing them for 20 years.

 

[lifted]

Personally I feel supps a lot more than deadlifts or squats. Those dont do anything for me and Ive been doing them for 20 years.

Bump, squats and deads raising hormone levels is a myth. I don't even know why this assumption ever got started in the first place. no offense neo

Try dermacrine and/or dermacrine sustain from primordial performance. Lot's of great user feedback...

 

[neoborn]

LOL myth. Ok then you disprove it first with fact / studies / backup information and I'll prove it, if I can after that

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[FrankJ]

After much researching *sarcasm*, I found that indeed squats and other heavy weight lifts due increase testosterone. Here is a chart I found...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2005/par56a.gif

That was after 6 sets of 10 reps ( MS ) . The other plot is one set of 1 set of 10 reps ( SS ) - didnt do much.

The only problem is that the levels are only elevated for one hour ( the bottom line is measure in minutes ). So as a long term way to increase testosterone and libido, its not effective.

The entire article is here

Bodybuilding.com - Karl Hoffman - Resistance Exercise And Androgen Levels.

It talks about how even though testosterone is increased, AR receptors are destroyed by the exercise, so its not a pathway to build muscle hormonally unless you are taking something to prevent cortisol release. The AR grow back and then some, but over the next 48 hours during rest periods.

Oh and you losers wont get anywhere in life if you are too lazy to do a 5 minute google search.

 

[drksun]

I agree that supps are at the bottom . . . but as far as supps go, you can also try Tribulus and 6 oxo.
Also make sure you're not eating an extremely low fat diet -- you need fat to keep your natural test levels up -- just make sure its good fat if possible (mono unsaturated fats) such as olive oil . . .

trib has no correlation with serum testosterone

Tribulus terrestris has long been a constituent in tonics in Indian ayurveda practice, where it is known by its Sanskrit name, "gokshura."[4]

It is now being promoted as a booster for the purpose of increasing sex drive. Its use for this purpose originated in Eastern Europe in the 1970's. Independent studies [5] have suggested that Tribulus terrestris extract slightly increases hormone levels, though leaving them in the normal range.

Some have compared the tonic properties of Tribulus terrestris to the effects of ginseng, but these occur due to entirely different mechanisms. It is also claimed that Tribulus terrestris increases testosterone by increasing gonadotropin-releasing hormone[6] (GnRH) which in turn stimulates the production of LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH). Testosterone, besides its role in muscle-building and raising fertility and libido, is also known to have a positive effect on bone marrow activity (for red blood cell production) and the immune system.[citation needed]

On the other hand, one recent study found that T. terrestris caused no increase in testosterone or LH in young men,[7] and another found that a commercial supplement containing androstenedione and herbal extracts, including T. terrestris, was no more effective at raising testosterone levels than androstenedione alone.[8] SupplementWatch does not consider that there is any scientific evidence for effectiveness in muscle building. It suggests that it may be beneficial for those whose testosterone is below normal, such as dieters and overtrained athletes.[5]

The active chemical in T. terrestris is is likely to be protodioscin (PTN),[9] a cousin to DHEA. In a study with mice, Tribulus was shown to enhance mounting activity and erection better than testosterone cypionate.[citation needed] This however, isn't as convincing as one might think. Although an OTC supplement outpacing a pharmaceutical is big news, testosterone cypionate is a synthetic ester of testosterone engineered for its longer activity. To be effective, its level must build up in the system of the animal using it. This process usually takes 2–3 weeks.National Institutes of Health, <http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?id=2268>. Retrieved on 2007-11-15 The proerectile aphrodisiac properties were concluded to likely be due to the release of nitric oxide from the nerve endings innervating the corpus cavernosum penis.

No significant adverse effects have been reported from supplementation with Tribulus terrestris. However, some users report an upset stomach, which can usually be counteracted by taking it with food.[5]

(7) # ^ V. K. Neychev and V. I. Mitev (2005). "The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men". Journal of Ethnopharmacology 101 (1–3): 319–323.

School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University Lismore, New South Wales, Australia. [email protected]

Tribulus terrestris is an herbal nutritional supplement that is promoted to produce large gains in strength and lean muscle mass in 5-28 days (15, 18). Although some manufacturers claim T. terrestris will not lead to a positive drug test, others have suggested that T. terrestris may increase the urinary testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio, which may place athletes at risk of a positive drug test. The purpose of the study was to determine the effect of T. terrestris on strength, fat free mass, and the urinary T/E ratio during 5 weeks of preseason training in elite rugby league players. Twenty-two Australian elite male rugby league players (mean +/- SD; age = 19.8 +/- 2.9 years; weight = 88.0 +/- 9.5 kg) were match-paired and randomly assigned in a double-blind manner to either a T. terrestris (n = 11) or placebo (n = 11) group. All subjects performed structured heavy resistance training as part of the club's preseason preparations. A T. terrestris extract (450 mg.d(-1)) or placebo capsules were consumed once daily for 5 weeks. Muscular strength, body composition, and the urinary T/E ratio were monitored prior to and after supplementation. After 5 weeks of training, strength and fat free mass increased significantly without any between-group differences. No between-group differences were noted in the urinary T/E ratio. It was concluded that T. terrestris did not produce the large gains in strength or lean muscle mass that many manufacturers claim can be experienced within 5-28 days. Furthermore, T. terrestris did not alter the urinary T/E ratio and would not place an athlete at risk of testing positive based on the World Anti-Doping Agency's urinary T/E ratio limit of 4:1.

PMID: 17530942 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[drksun]

LOL myth. Ok then you disprove it first with fact / studies / backup information and I'll prove it, if I can after that

Much Love,

Neoborn

I found this so far..

Strength training effects on physical performance and serum hormones in young soccer players.
Gorostiaga EM, Izquierdo M, Ruesta M, Iribarren J, González-Badillo JJ, Ibáñez J.

Centro de Investigación y Medicina del Deporte de Navarra, Gobierno de Navarra, C/ Paulino Caballero 13, 31002 Pamplona, Spain. [email protected]

To determine the effects of simultaneous explosive strength and soccer training in young men, 8 experimental (S) and 11 control (C) players, aged 17.2 (0.6) years, were tested before and after an 11-week training period with respect to the load-vertical jumping curve [loads of 0-70 kg (counter-movement jump CMJ0-70)], 5- and 15-m sprint performances, submaximal running endurance and basal serum concentrations of testosterone, free testosterone and cortisol. In the S group, the 11-week training resulted in significant increases in the low-force portion of the load-vertical jumping curve (5-14% in CMJ0-30, P<0.01) and in resting serum total testosterone concentrations (7.5%, P<0.05), whereas no changes were observed in sprint running performance, blood lactate during submaximal running, resting serum cortisol and resting serum free testosterone concentrations. In the C group, no changes were observed during the experimental period. In the S group, the changes in CMJ0 correlated ( P<0.05-0.01) with the changes in the 5-m ( r=0.86) and 15-m ( r=0.92) sprints, whereas the changes in CMJ40 correlated negatively with the changes in the testosterone:cortisol ratio ( r=-0.84, -0.92, respectively, P<0.05). These data indicate that young trained soccer players with low initial strength levels can increase explosive strength by adding low-frequency, low-intensity explosive-type strength training. (think what squats are) The inverse correlations observed between changes in CMJ40 and changes in the testosterone:cortisol ratio suggest that a transient drop in this ratio below 45% cannot always be interpreted as a sign of overstrain or neuroendocrine dysfunction.

PMID: 14704801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[drksun]

Bump, squats and deads raising hormone levels is a myth. I don't even know why this assumption ever got started in the first place. no offense neo

Try dermacrine and/or dermacrine sustain from primordial performance. Lot's of great user feedback...

truthfully i would only use sustain for PCT, its basically a SERM + a AI, I would go with some activate, JW, drive or something in that since.

 

[lifted]

LOL myth. Ok then you disprove it first with fact / studies / backup information and I'll prove it, if I can after that

Much Love,

Neoborn

Actually, that's not how it works. You made a statement and you should be able to prove it and back it up when asked to do so. How am I suppossed to disprove it if there isn't any actual relevant findings to prove it in the first place?

The studies below are a start (although it was someone else who posted them.)

 

[ITHURTZ]

It has been proven over and over it does not raise test levels.

 

[testodan]

What about Long Jack AKA Tongat Ali?

 

[neoborn]

Maybe I misunderstand or this is something I just don't know.

weight training systems

Growth hormone (GH) is released from the anterior pituitary gland in the brain soon after exercise commences; however, the precise effects of this GH release seems to be a function of the age of the exerciser (more later). GH is often regarded as the ‘sport hormone’ because it is involved in numerous anabolic functions relating to cell proliferation and division throughout the body. Specifically, GH stimulates bone, cartilage and muscle growth and can play a very significant role in lean muscle mass and fat deterioration/accumulation. This explains why it has been used as an illegal ergogenic aid. GH release via exercise is also augmented by a further chemical reaction. Basically, hormones that would otherwise act to blunt GH production (eg somatostatin) are suppressed by the production of other chemicals produced during exercise (endogenous opiates). In short, GH’s ergogenic training-induced effect can contribute toward creating a leaner, stronger, more powerful athlete.

Testosterone is produced in men through the testes and in women (though to a much lesser extent) via the ovaries. The primary role of testosterone is to augment the release of GH and also to interact with the brain and nervous system (2). For example, an increased level of testosterone can produce greater feelings of aggressiveness/dominance. The mechanisms behind this process (and other hormonal influences on behaviour) are complex.

 

[ITHURTZ]

No the point was squating doesnt increase test levels like the rumors stated it did.

 

[neoborn]

Please prove your case because I cannot prove mine...

Bodybuilding.com - Babyboomers - Bodybuilding For Babyboomers - Raising Testosterone Naturally!
I hope your training routine includes heavy, compound exercises like squats, bench presses and barbell rows, since there have been studies that indicate that these heavy exercises increase testosterone levels.

3. Do weight training, heavy weights
Long-term studies show that more than three hours of exercise each week can boost testosterone levels. However, not all forms of exercise boost testosterone to the same extent. Firstly, it needs to be vigorous, as light to moderate exercise (such as walking) has little effect on testosterone levels. Studies show that multi-joint exercises such as the squat, bench press, seated row and lat pulldown done with a heavy weight (5-8 repetitions) will also elevate testosterone.

Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise -- Volek et al. 82 (1): 49 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

Volek, Jeff S., William J. Kraemer, Jill A. Bush, Thomas Incledon, and Mark Boetes. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 82(1): 49-54, 1997.---Manipulation of resistance exercise variables (i.e., intensity, volume, and rest periods) affects the endocrine response to exercise; however, the influence of dietary nutrients on basal and exercise-induced concentrations of hormones is less understood. The present study examined the relationship between dietary nutrients and resting and exercise-induced blood concentrations of testosterone (T) and cortisol (C). Twelve men performed a bench press exercise protocol (5 sets to failure using a 10-repetitions maximum load) and a jump squat protocol (5 sets of 10 repetitions using 30% of each subject's 1-repetition maximum squat) with 2 min of rest between all sets. A blood sample was obtained at preexercise and 5 min postexercise for determination of serum T and C. Subjects also completed detailed dietary food records for a total of 17 days. There was a significant (P <= 0.05) increase in postexercise T compared with preexercise values for both the bench press (7.4%) and jump squat (15.1%) protocols; however, C was not significantly different from preexercise concentrations. Significant correlations were observed between preexercise T and percent energy protein (r = -0.71), percent energy fat (r = 0.72), saturated fatty acids (g · 1,000 kcal-1 · day-1; r = 0.77), monounsaturated fatty acids (g · 1,000 kcal-1 · day-1; r = 0.79), the polyunsaturated fat-to-saturated fat ratio (r = -0.63), and the protein-to-carbohydrate ratio (r = -0.59). There were no significant correlations observed between any nutritional variables and preexercise C or the absolute increase in T and C after exercise. These data confirm that high-intensity resistance exercise results in elevated postexercise T concentrations. A more impressive finding was that dietary nutrients may be capable of modulating resting concentrations of T.

nutrition; carbohydrate; fat; protein; steroid hormones

We must be talking about apples and oranges here as a huge miscommunication because everything I am reading in relation to resistance training is saying "Raises testosterone levels". Are we on the same page?

 

[drksun]

No the point was squating doesnt increase test levels like the rumors stated it did.

studies or it didn't happen.

 

[neoborn]

See in my mind what makes sense is biggest muscle = biggest hormonal response telling the body to make more of the good stuff i.e. Test and GH.

Is libido linked to Testosterone?

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[ITHURTZ]

Do you own research. Paypal me a few bills and I will gladly use my time to show you.

 

[ClintCanada]

Here's some info on some OTC stuff you could look into to help boost test (got it from a sticky in the anti-aging forum)

Nettle root extract may provide a unique mechanism for increasing levels of free testosterone by binding to SHBG, the globulin that inactivates sex hormones, therefore potentially increasing the amount of unbound, free testosterone (Lichius JJ et al 1997; Schottner M et al 1997; Gansser D et al 1995; Hryb DJ et al 1995; Hirano T et al 1994). Nettle root extract is used extensively, either in combination with saw palmetto or by itself, for relief of BPH symptoms.

In 2005, researchers conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study of nettle root extract. This is the gold standard of clinical trial formats and is used to rigorously test pharmaceutical drugs before they gain market approval. Almost 600 patients were enrolled in this trial for up to 18 months. At the end of the study, 81 percent of the treated patients experienced significant relief of their symptoms and significant reductions in their IPSS compared with only 16 percent of the control subjects. After the 18-month follow-up, only those patients who continued with the therapy experienced any benefits (Safarinejad MR 2005).

These results were confirmed in another study that examined the effect of saw palmetto combined with nettle root extract on men. Once again, this was a double-blind, placebo-controlled study. In this case, the reduction in IPSS was “clearly superior” among men receiving saw palmetto and nettle root extract, compared to men receiving placebo (Lopatkin N et al 2005).

Nettle root extract has also shown an affinity for SHBG (Hryb DJ et al 1995). SHBG is closely related to levels of free testosterone and estrogen; most of these hormones travel through the bloodstream “bound” to SHBG. Any testosterone that is unbound to SHBG is referred to as free testosterone. Studies have shown that men with BPH have elevated levels of SHBG in their prostate gland (Jiang H et al 2004); thus, any nutrient that reduces SHBG levels may also be able to reduce BPH.

Zinc. Zinc is related to testosterone levels. In one animal study, rats subjected to an acute swimming test were either supplemented with zinc or placebo. The study showed that zinc supplementation led to significant increases in testosterone levels and may help in athletic performance (Kaya O et al 2006). Among humans, zinc supplementation in a group of male wrestlers prevented the depletion of testosterone after exertion (Kilic M et al 2006). Additional studies have suggested that zinc is important to the synthesis of testosterone (Ali H et al 2005).

 

[neoborn]

Do you own research. Paypal me a few bills and I will gladly use my time to show you.

Looks like we settled this all up. Thanks for your input though.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[lifted]

Looks like we settled this all up. Thanks for your input though.

Much Love,

Neoborn

neo, all those things you posted are from "people" posting their training IDEAS on a website, and BB.com at that. This is how the myth got started. The only study you posted so far was stating that HIT resistance training raises T levels. Of course it does, that is what happens, ALL exc will do this.

Here, we (you actually) are saying that squats exhibit more of a T-stimulation than all other exc... this is not true, at least I've yet to see any data to support it. If however you do, please post, because I as well as others here would like to see it, in all seriousness.

 

[MashedPotato]

See in my mind what makes sense is biggest muscle = biggest hormonal response telling the body to make more of the good stuff i.e. Test and GH.

Is libido linked to Testosterone?

Much Love,

Neoborn

In a recent study done by Gotshalk (1996), serum GH, testosterone, cortisol,
and whole blood lactate responses to single-set vs. multiple set heavy
resistance exercise protocols were examined. Eight weight trained men
completed a resistance exercise workout of 10 RM with a 1 set design and
also completed an identical workout with a 3 set design. Both workouts
utilized 1 minute rest periods. The exercises used were the leg press, bench
press, wide grip pull down, shoulder press, seated row, arm curl, leg
extension, and sit up. Blood was then drawn pre-exercise, immediately
post-exercise and at 5 min, 15 min, 30 min, and 60 min.

Results:

GH was highest in both workouts at 15 min. post-exercise. However, the 3 set
protocol was significantly higher (16.16 g/L) than the 1 set protocol (7.47
g/L).

Testosterone production was highest in both protocols immediately
post-exercise. Again, the 3 set protocol induced a significantly higher
response (29.60 mmol/L) than the single-set protocol (24.92 mmol/L). The 3
set protocol also kept production much higher at the end of 60 min (24.84
mmol/L vs. 22.30 mmol/L).

Whole blood lactate production, as suspected was significantly higher with
the 3 set protocol ( 9.42 mmol/L) than the 1 set protocol ( 6.47 mmol/L)
immediately post-exercise.

Cortisol production was the highest in both workouts at 15 min.
post-exercise. Because the 3 set protocol probably caused more stress the
cortisol production was significantly higher (485.25 nmol/L) than the 1 set
protocol (428.75 nmol/L).

The testosterone to cortisol production ratio shows the ratio between protein
degradation and protein synthesis. As we all are aware, the higher the
synthesis to degradation ratio the better. The highest ratio in both
protocols was found at 5 min. post-exercise. The 3 set protocol induced a
much higher ratio ( 0.0680 ) than the 1 set protocol (0.0599). Meaning
protein synthesis was much higher than protein degradation in the 3 set
protocol when compared to the 1 set protocol. This is though to be optimal
for stimulating muscle growth.

Thus, it is concluded that higher volumes of work produce significantly
greater increases in circulating anabolic hormones during recovery. Using
larger training volumes is the preferred method to induce maximal muscle
hypertrophy.

Gotshalk, L.A., et.al. (1996). Pituitary-gonadal hormonal responses of
multi-set vs. single -set resistance exercise. Journal of Strength and
Conditioning Research. 10(4):286. Abstract.
----------------

Summary - Test and GH increased short term post exersise
Summary - No effective data to suggest long term increase, then again no significant data to prove otherwise.

So in a nutshell, of all the data around, Neo is indeed correct (for short term increase - cannot find data on long term increase). There are many stuides confirming this (and also logic would point to this conclusion if studying the breakdown of muscle tissue during training etc) and I am yet to find a suitable study that otherwise disproves this result.

 

[lifted]

Summary - Test and GH increased short term post exersise
Summary - No effective data to suggest long term increase, then again no significant data to prove otherwise.

So in a nutshell, of all the data around, Neo is indeed correct (for short term increase - cannot find data on long term increase). There are many stuides confirming this (and also logic would point to this conclusion if studying the breakdown of muscle tissue during training etc) and I am yet to find a suitable study that otherwise disproves this result.

NO, you're not interpreting the study correctly. This study shows that ALLLLLLLLLL of those exc done (leg press, bench
press, wide grip pull down, shoulder press, seated row, arm curl, leg extension, and sit up) exhibit a T increase. Not to mention squats and deads weren't even USED here. This study is useless, I don't know why you posted it and then tried to prove neo's point?? Did you read the whole study? Not trying to be a smart-ass, its just so blatant bro.

Like I said before, all resistance training increases hormones, we know this, certain ones DO NOT exhibit more of T-increase than others. The point of this study was to determine if either the 1-set 10RM or the 3-set 10RM gave more of a GH/T increase than the other. The 3-set obviously gave more, due to more volume, more pronounced effects...

 

[MashedPotato]

NO, you're not interpreting the study correctly. This study shows that ALLLLLLLLLL of those exc done (leg press, bench
press, wide grip pull down, shoulder press, seated row, arm curl, leg extension, and sit up) exhibit a T increase. Not to mention squats and deads weren't even USED here. This study is useless, I don't know why you posted it and then tried to prove neo's point?? Did you read the whole study? Not trying to be a smart-ass, its just so blatant bro.

Like I said before, all resistance training increases hormones, we know this, certain ones DO NOT exhibit more of T-increase than others. The point of this study was to determine if either the 1-set 10RM or the 3-set 10RM gave more of a GH/T increase than the other. The 3-set obviously gave more, due to more volume, more pronounced effects...

Apparently i read your comment wrong, i merely agree that exersise increased the amount of anabolic hormones. Which this study does indeed prove.
I thought you were implying there is no evidence to suggest that vigorous exersise increases growth hormones.

 

[neoborn]

Ok Lifted, I see your point. Now after we have attempted to prove it, can you actually disprove it as you and your friend there so adamantly proclaim?

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[ITHURTZ]

You have to PROVE something before it can be proven. go look at tnation or something, Im sure they have a article. If I have enough time tonight (which I doubt) Ill find them and post it. Buy your paying me $100 for research

 

[TripDog]

Man when I do legs / deads the day after my libido is crazy.

:toofunny: I used to be like that all day long without anything

Much Love,

Neoborn

:toofunny::clap2:

 

[neoborn]

So basically if we want to rap up this ego "I'm right, your wrong" thing is that the conclusion comes down to neither of us can prove or disprove that Squats / Deads increase T anymore than any other resistance exercise?

Sigh way too much typing in this thread to come to this conclusion. So I finish with saying "yeah it boosts T way higher than any other exercise" can you prove me wrong? No you have no form of study to back up your theory and neither do I so :thumbsup::thumbsup:

If anyone else other than IT or Lifted can prove or disprove this I am more than happy to read links or hear the (more so intelligent) discussion / povs on this.

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[ITHURTZ]

You basing everything off of rumor. And I told you, paypal me $100 and I will glady post links. Need $ for my time in research

 

[methodice]

Man when I do legs / deads the day after my libido is crazy.

:toofunny: I used to be like that all day long without anything

Much Love,

Neoborn

Based on the conclusions made in this thread, this man is in an infinite loop. Each half squat he does raises his test and enables perpetual horniness.

I would assume this regime would also help with losing fat, low intensity cardio style.

Can someone log this vs a hormonal based cutter.

 

[neoborn]

/unsub

 

[rhunt000]

This is the only thing I've been able to find so far where squats are compared to another exercise and testosterone is measured postworkout. I interpret this as saying that at 5 min postworkout, testosterone is 15.1% higher compared to preworkout for the squat and testosterone is 7.4% higher compred to preworkout for bench press. Looks like they are doing 5 sets of 10 reps for the jump squat at a weight which was 30% of the 1 rep max and the bench was 5 sets of the 10 rep max. This may not be conclusive evidence as I'm sure there are many variables to take into consideration. I'd be curious to see these types of results for squats that are closer to the 1 rep max. It appears that Jeff Volek has done some other interesting studies on exercise and nutrition. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise -- Volek et al. 82 (1): 49 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

 

[lifted]

Ok Lifted, I see your point. Now after we have attempted to prove it, can you actually disprove it as you and your friend there so adamantly proclaim?

Much Love,

Neoborn

umm, I don't know why you're acting so chilldish since all I asked for was some actual proof to back up the remarks you made. I'm sorry if I made you look out of place when you tried to back up your claims w/ posts from BB.com and useless studies. It's okay to be wrong... once in a while.

And your whole take on debating is whacked btw... if you cannot prove something with some data, then you shouldn't have stated it in the first place, especially when you act immature about it and call out a respected member as if I have no idea what I ever talk about here. :smite:

 

[lifted]

This is the only thing I've been able to find so far where squats are compared to another exercise and testosterone is measured postworkout. I interpret this as saying that at 5 min postworkout, testosterone is 15.1% higher compared to preworkout for the squat and testosterone is 7.4% higher compred to preworkout for bench press. Looks like they are doing 5 sets of 10 reps for the jump squat at a weight which was 30% of the 1 rep max and the bench was 5 sets of the 10 rep max. This may not be conclusive evidence as I'm sure there are many variables to take into consideration. I'd be curious to see these types of results for squats that are closer to the 1 rep max. It appears that Jeff Volek has done some other interesting studies on exercise and nutrition. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise -- Volek et al. 82 (1): 49 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

Thank you for that. That is the best I've seen in relation to what were talking about. variables such as only %30-1rm for jump squat and 10rm for bench are kinda misleading still. Some other variables such as the nutrition are kinda skewed as well.

 

[rhunt000]

Thank you for that. That is the best I've seen in relation to what were talking about. variables such as only %30-1rm for jump squat and 10rm for bench are kinda misleading still. Some other variables such as the nutrition are kinda skewed as well.

Well, I've always heard that more squats and deadlifts = more test (compared to other exercises) and I guess I just took it for granted. I was actually glad to see the question posed. Got me to digging around. Looks like an awesome opportunity for a study to try and prove or disprove. If I find anything else one way or another, I will post.

 

[neoborn]

umm, I don't know why you're acting so chilldish since all I asked for was some actual proof to back up the remarks you made. I'm sorry if I made you look out of place when you tried to back up your claims w/ posts from BB.com and useless studies. It's okay to be wrong... once in a while.

And your whole take on debating is whacked btw... if you cannot prove something with some data, then you shouldn't have stated it in the first place, especially when you act immature about it and call out a respected member as if I have no idea what I ever talk about here. :smite:

I am also unsure of why you may have taken my wording as childish, please feel free to explain where you see me being immature. As far as I see it I think it's good you question information other people state as fact. I was also merely doing the same thing.

I have come to the point of acknowledging to you that I cannot actually back up this statement with a study etc. I was also directing this back to yourself and IThurts because you both adamantly (strongly) claim that this is untrue, can you prove your point of view? Please don't continue to talk around this point, please just show me the studies and links to the studies / proof that squatting and deads do not in fact boost Test any more than any other resistance exercise.

I will just take it at face value that, if you cannot provide links other than your words then what you state is also untrue....is it not or should I say unproven?

I am sure that you as a respected long time member can back up what you say with proof and studies etc...right?

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.S I am totally cool with being wrong, I guess you have just taken my last statement the wrong way.

 

[rhunt000]

If I may be so bold, here is my opinion on this issue:

1st, there is an assumption that for a given workout certain conditions have been met such that there will be a
testosterone increase for some amount of time postworkout compared to preworkout. These conditions appear to be dietary, lack of overtraining, cortisol, time of day, etc. (I am in no way suggesting that all of these actually have an influence nor am I suggesting this is an exhaustive list). It appears that certain conditions can be met such that there is a decrease in testosterone postworkout --> http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n1/10/v4n1-10pdf.pdf and
Mechanical load increases muscle IGF-I and androgen receptor mRNA concentrations in humans -- Bamman et al. 280 (3): E383 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism although the timing of taking the sample for testosterone
analysis in these studies could be an issue.

Given the above assumption,

1) 1 party has stated that testosterone postworkout compared to preworkout is significantly greater for exercises such as squats and deadlifts (along with other compound movements in general) than other exercises.

2) Another party has stated that this is false, or testosterone postworkout compared to preworkout is not significantly
greater for exercises such as squats and deadlifts (along with other compound movements in general) than other exercises.

I think both parties agree that the inability to prove the proposition in (1) false does not conclude that the proposition
is true.

Please let me know if I am accurately describing the discussion.

In addition to the link in a previous post, this suggests that (1) may have some validity
http://www.uconnhuskies.com/MainLinks/UConnStrength/2005/kraemer's_article.pdf (see page 5 paragraph 3 and page 6,
paragraph 2). This write up http://dissertations.jyu.fi/studsport/9513925714.pdf also makes the suggestion on page 25.
Here is a write up by Kraemer and Ratamess http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfje/5230/resisitance-training-MSSE.pdf who have done work on the subject. There is a strong assertion on page 3 with references that I'd like to get my hands on. They may provide some data.

Thank you

 

[ClintCanada]

Look -- if you concede that any exercises increase Test -- this increase is due to the effects of that exercise. Since Squats, deads etc. are MORE stimulating to the body that doing forearm curls, it would MAKE SENSE that they would result in a greater Test increase than forearm curls (or smaller body part/exercise). Without research to back this, most reasonable people would agree that this makes sense -- this is the point Neo is making.

 

[MashedPotato]

Look -- if you concede that any exercises increase Test -- this increase is due to the effects of that exercise. Since Squats, deads etc. are MORE stimulating to the body that doing forearm curls, it would MAKE SENSE that they would result in a greater Test increase than forearm curls (or smaller body part/exercise). Without research to back this, most reasonable people would agree that this makes sense -- this is the point Neo is making.

(shhhh, dont spoil the fun , Im just wondering how many different ways neo can point out this fact, he has was more patience than me.)

Although it seems it cannot be "proven", based on current evidence of test increase w/exersise, it would be "safe" to assume that larger body parts, those requiring more physical exertion, would result in a higher test increase.

The point here seems to be that it cannot be "proven", per say, and even if it does cause a higher release of test, how much more, and whether it is even a significant increase (an increase likely to yeild results other than in a lab test).

 

[neoborn]

It has been proven over and over it does not raise test levels.

:toofunny:

?:study:?

:type:

 

[FrankJ]

You basing everything off of rumor. And I told you, paypal me $100 and I will glady post links. Need $ for my time in research

ROFL- thats most clever best way to avoid losing an arguement Ive ever seen! Claim you are right but demand 100$! Nobody will take you up on that, lol!

Gotta love the internet.

 

[ITHURTZ]

The claim he is trying to make it doing legs is like roids. Lifting causes test. Small muscles make less, bigger muscles make more. Will squating make more test than forearm curls yes. Will doing squats make your entire body explode from the holy grail of a test increase? NO

 

[ATH3386]

Bump, squats and deads raising hormone levels is a myth. I don't even know why this assumption ever got started in the first place. no offense neo

Try dermacrine and/or dermacrine sustain from primordial performance. Lot's of great user feedback...

You state that squats and deads raising test is a myth. This is to be interperted by any normal individual as "Squats and deads don't cause increases." Now, your points as of now are, "All exercises increase hormone levels" while your original idea was that squats and deads didnt. Either your english is faulty or your logic is faulty. I believe it is logic.

If there is a study on test differences from squat( as you are telling neo to find one), there would be one on either increase or decrease. So telling neo that its his job to prove is the same as you disproving. Why should he have to prove a common believe that he has shown proof for? I think you should show proof for your disbelief of a common thought. There has been evidence showing exercise increases test. Your original thought was that squat and deadlift DONT increase test. This would mean that not all exercises increase test.. which is the idea youre advocating to use at the moment.

also..
I highly doubt any lab would specifically study the effects from ONE exercise. There are studies out there showing that heavier exercise increases test more than lighter exercise due to the secretion of hormone to repair the muscle damaged. One would have to use a small amount of common sense to link this to the idea that since squat uses every muscle under the bar(a mostly true saying). This would mean all of these muscles "request" a release of hormone. Overall, this results in a greater amount of test released vs. those who do pull ups, military press, or some other exercise that focuses on less muscle groups.

Please, do not come back with the "study" excuse. If that is the first thing to come to your mind, I suggest re-reading my post a few times until it sinks in and you can admit that you are wrong.

OR you can find a study disproving this. To say there wouldnt be a study is rediculous. There are plenty of disproving studies out there about certain things. Thats why its called exerimentation. If everything was in a cookie cutter layout.. we would know everything about anything. Look at trib.. They tested its ability to raise Test levels. They disproved that myth.. So you can disprove this one if that what you feel so strongly about.

 

[ITHURTZ]

When I get poor and go bankrupt ( give me by the weekend) Ill post the myth.

p.s email myth busters about this also