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  1. Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard
    not sure I'm taking your meaning here, Dr.D - you mean that steroidal AIs are qualitatively defferent from non-steroidal AIs?

    Please explain!

    also - what's your sense of the best time to take letro? AM? PM?
    Hey Wiz! Steroidal AIs act as suicide substrates that deactivate aromatase. They don't suppress or induce enzymes so there is no rebound when you stop using them. In fact, if you take them long enough there have been reports of protracted anti-e activity long after the compound is discontinued. Letro, on the other hand, prevents estro formation. Enzymes can rebound hard if big doses of letro are taken for a few months straight. This is well documented in women using 2.5mg daily. It is unnecessary because optimal estrogen suppression occurs at 0.25mg daily. I recommend 0.1mg daily or 0.25mg EOD for an average cycle of aromatizable androgens.

    Letro has a long half-life, so just take it at the same time every day. First thing in the morning would be fine, but it probably doesn't matter too much when.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Ghosting
    Dr.D pulls through again.
    Hey G, sorry I didn't answer the whole question! Yes, letro hurts lipids, but I still love the stuff and think it has it's place. Especially on high test cycles, but Aromasin and Rebound, 2 steroidal AIs, show possible evidence of improving lipids (or at least lowering LDL), maybe due to the 17b-OH metabolites. If letro is used anyway, use the lowest dose required so that estrogen is just attenuated and not completely destroyed.
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  3. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Hey G, sorry I didn't answer the whole question! Yes, letro hurts lipids, but I still love the stuff and think it has it's place. Especially on high test cycles, but Aromasin and Rebound, 2 steroidal AIs, show possible evidence of improving lipids (or at least lowering LDL), maybe due to the 17b-OH metabolites. If letro is used anyway, use the lowest dose required so that estrogen is just attenuated and not completely destroyed.
    1 question, what do you know about ATD causing a rebound? I dont fully understand (from what I know of AI's), how a rebound would be possible.?.? In my mind you would have a reduction of the aromatase enzyme, so Im lost when people say taper AI's. Give us the Dr.D final word on this.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Ghosting
    1 question, what do you know about ATD causing a rebound? I dont fully understand (from what I know of AI's), how a rebound would be possible.?.? In my mind you would have a reduction of the aromatase enzyme, so Im lost when people say taper AI's. Give us the Dr.D final word on this.
    ATD will not cause a rebound (ironic that it's named Rebound ) because it's a steroidal AI like Teslac and Aromasin. The aromatase inhibition that they cause can be noncompetetive and irreversible, that's why they don't rebound. When people say to taper AIs they probably mean Anastrazol and Letrozole, they are enzyme inhibitors and suppress enzymes that are needed to make estrogen. The body tries to rebalance that by inducing the production of more enzymes proportional to the degree of inhibition and time that they were used. If you use an enzyme inhibitor like letro, just keep the dose low, use it for the shortest amount of time possible and taper at the end if you choose to use higher doses. It's pretty much that simple.

  5. Ooooh...cool, I could just PCT at 3 caps a day for a while, then drop to 2 maybe and call it quits? no need to taper?

    Always full of good info
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  6. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    ATD will not cause a rebound (ironic that it's named Rebound ) because it's a steroidal AI like Teslac and Aromasin. The aromatase inhibition that they cause can be noncompetetive and irreversible, that's why they don't rebound. When people say to taper AIs they probably mean Anastrazol and Letrozole, they are enzyme inhibitors and suppress enzymes that are needed to make estrogen. The body tries to rebalance that by inducing the production of more enzymes proportional to the degree of inhibition and time that they were used. If you use an enzyme inhibitor like letro, just keep the dose low, use it for the shortest amount of time possible and taper at the end if you choose to use higher doses. It's pretty much that simple.
    I get people telling all the time that AI's cause rebound and SERMS dont. of course they never answer me when Nolva is gone then what happens to all the waiting estrogen if you dont taper? They never answer why SERMs need to be tapered. This happens to me a lot. Ugh!

  7. Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    Ooooh...cool, I could just PCT at 3 caps a day for a while, then drop to 2 maybe and call it quits? no need to taper?

    Always full of good info
    Yeah, you could do a little 3,2 taper. It wouldn't hurt, but it's not required either. I actually ramp up 1,2,3 with ATD as my SERM tapers out.

  8. Ohh yeah...that's right....I remember that PCT outline

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Ghosting
    I get people telling all the time that AI's cause rebound and SERMS dont. of course they never answer me when Nolva is gone then what happens to all the waiting estrogen if you dont taper? They never answer why SERMs need to be tapered. This happens to me a lot. Ugh!
    it is teh funneh

  10. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    Hey G, sorry I didn't answer the whole question! Yes, letro hurts lipids, but I still love the stuff and think it has it's place. Especially on high test cycles, but Aromasin and Rebound, 2 steroidal AIs, show possible evidence of improving lipids (or at least lowering LDL), maybe due to the 17b-OH metabolites. If letro is used anyway, use the lowest dose required so that estrogen is just attenuated and not completely destroyed.
    Hey doc, would using say 2-3 caps of ATD on cycle be enough to 1.) Prevent gyno to the extent of say using Letro @ .25mg EOD or .1-.2mg ED as a replacement since Letro is harder on the cholesterol profile than ATD (this would be of course with a aromatizing compound like test) and 2.) Work as a OTC HCG of sorts. What are your thoughts good Doc. Hope you are doing well brother.
  11. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer
    it is teh funneh
    Now you can do a cut & paste of Dr.D to defend my honor without it looking like we are gay like we are in real life.

  12. i cant find the thread it was in, i looked at everything i posted in but cant find it.
  13. Ghosting
    Ghosting's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioneer
    i cant find the thread it was in, i looked at everything i posted in but cant find it.
    Likey story. You just dont want anyone to know we are gay. Its cool, I wont let anyone know.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Grassroots082
    Hey doc, would using say 2-3 caps of ATD on cycle be enough to 1.) Prevent gyno to the extent of say using Letro @ .25mg EOD or .1-.2mg ED as a replacement since Letro is harder on the cholesterol profile than ATD (this would be of course with a aromatizing compound like test) and 2.) Work as a OTC HCG of sorts. What are your thoughts good Doc. Hope you are doing well brother.
    I'm doing fine bro, it's always great to hear for you. I pray you're doing well too. I have not experimented with ATD in this way much, but plan to. 1 or 2 caps should be plenty. It may prove to be a great letro replacement with fewer sides and better anti-gyno effects. 3 caps may be overkill, I'm just now sure at this point.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    I'm doing fine bro, it's always great to hear for you. I pray you're doing well too. I have not experimented with ATD in this way much, but plan to. 1 or 2 caps should be plenty. It may prove to be a great letro replacement with fewer sides and better anti-gyno effects. 3 caps may be overkill, I'm just now sure at this point.
    Thanks Buddy
  16. Question for Dr. D


    Airmidex and Letro work the same way, correct? Would using airmedex at .5-1.0 mgs per day be overkill on a cycle? Should I use it as you recommend letro (lower dose as to not totallly kill estrogen)? If so, what dose do you recommend?
    Thanks! Your posts are always very helpful!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by workin2005
    Airmidex and Letro work the same way, correct? Would using airmedex at .5-1.0 mgs per day be overkill on a cycle? Should I use it as you recommend letro (lower dose as to not totallly kill estrogen)? If so, what dose do you recommend?
    Thanks! Your posts are always very helpful!
    Arimidex is not dosed the same as letro for some reason. It takes a full dose of it to cause optimal suppression, so 0.5mg/d if you just want to control estrogen, or 1.0mg to truly inhibit it. That's why I like letro better, they are equally effective, but letro is about 4x stronger.

  18. so .5 of airmidex would = about .125 of Letro, correct? Same effects?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by workin2005
    so .5 of airmidex would = about .125 of Letro, correct? Same effects?
    Right. Roughly equal effect. About 60-70% inhibition at that dose if I remember the studies correctly.

    BTW, lookin' real sliced with that 6pk action in your Av, impressive my man!
  20. Wink


    thanks for the info bro and the complement!

  21. The discussion's about SERMs and AIs, and Dr.D's posting. The ideal circumstances for me to post a question

    Some people reported getting gyno from Ergomax or SD. I know that normally this isn't very likely to happen, but as we see it can happen, even if the chances are low.
    Now, as an estrogen-sensitive person previously operated for pubertal gyno, I'd like to eliminate all risks gyno-wise. What should be my on-cycle drug(s) of choice and dosages in this regard?

    P.S. : As I live in Turkey I have easy access to all the drugs cited in this thread - except that arimidex is ridiculously expensive so out of the picture.

  22. You shouldn't have much of a problem with Gyno on cycle w/ Letro bro even a really low dose like .5mg or .25 every other day might even be too much but it does the trick for me. Nolva/Clomid for PCT has always been good to me as well.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by turkish
    The discussion's about SERMs and AIs, and Dr.D's posting. The ideal circumstances for me to post a question

    Some people reported getting gyno from Ergomax or SD. I know that normally this isn't very likely to happen, but as we see it can happen, even if the chances are low.
    Now, as an estrogen-sensitive person previously operated for pubertal gyno, I'd like to eliminate all risks gyno-wise. What should be my on-cycle drug(s) of choice and dosages in this regard?

    P.S. : As I live in Turkey I have easy access to all the drugs cited in this thread - except that arimidex is ridiculously expensive so out of the picture.
    Letro 0.1-0.25mg/d, Rebound 25-50mg/d, or Nolva 10-20mg/d in that order of preference

  24. Grassroots and Dr.D : thanks a bunch for the quick replies. I appreciate the help.

  25. Checked the prices, letro is also too expensive. Back to ATD.

    Wouldn't raloxifene be good in preventing gyno while on cycle, since it seems to be effective for reducing it?
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