Seperating broscience bull**** from real facts
- 10-28-2012, 04:59 PM
Seperating broscience bull**** from real facts
I'm a serious competitive bodybuilders and I'm looking for serious constructive answers.
I here alot of b.s. on the web about different drugs and their strengths/weaknesses.
For example, people say Anavar is a weak drug, and only women should use it, or guys if you are dosing it at 80mg+/day.
Another thing thats constantly perpetuated is the idea that tren is the only way to win, and nothing compares. Once again this is illogical.
Through the past few years of AAS useage and experimentation, I'm finding that a ton of these rumors are false.
Looking at the Anabolic:Androgenic ratio's of these drugs, you'll see that Anavar is rated at 322-600:24. This should mean its rated at 3.2x-6x more anabolic MG per MG than testosterone, and only 1/4 times as androgenic as Testosterone. Tren is 500:500 Given this rating, this means that 50mg of anavar/day, totalling 350mg/week is directly equivalent in anabolic activity as 1,120mg-2100mg of testosterone per week.
If you look at dbol, its rated in the 200's, meaning its LESS anabolic mg/mg then anavar.
So, this tells me, that half of the idiots on the internet think dbol is stronger, or tren is so much stronger simply because of androgenic stimulation of the CNS or because of water retention. But as far as growth potential is seems to me that VAR is perhaps the king.
Additonally, everyone believes that 500mg-750mg is enough testosterone to grow. Well, from personal experience, when coming off a "WEAK ORAL" like var at 50mg after my front load and building on my 750mg of test, I feel like it hardly compares. Why? Because 50mg of var is equial to double that amount of test.
This tells me, to have comparable results to any PH or oral steroid, if "test is best" you must be using 1.5-2g MINIMUM per week to seriously grow compete without needing orals.
So to all the var, tren, dbol, etc fans out there with your huge ass stacks, why not just take 3-5g of testosterone/week and focus on controlling your estradiol and hematocrit and blood pressure? You would be making the same gains given the A:A ratios of these orals and exotics without needing them.
We all look to a multitude of drugs to get the job done, when in reality, the answer could be as simple as we are underdosing the best hormone of all.
- 10-28-2012, 05:13 PM
The doses of test you are suggesting are ridiculous, 3-5gr a week? Unless you're 5'7" 270lbs <10%bf I see no reason where this is ever practical
I've seen guys grow, and grow well, on 300mg/week of testSerious Nutrition Solutions Representative
10-28-2012, 05:28 PM
Depending on who you are talking about, its not rediculous at all if you look to the science. I'm saying why would you take tren, dbol kick starts etc when its directly equivalent to 2-3g of test.
A typical cycle on these boards, if you agree with me on this:
500mg test-e wks 1-12
Dbol, 40mg wk-1-4
Tren 350mg wks 1-12
If you count the A:A ratio of each drug, and total out the weekly amount of A:A ratio in combination you would get the following:
Dbol -210 anabolic ratio would at 40mg = 8,400pts per day, = 58,800 per week
Tren - 500 anabloic ratio would be 50mg = 25,000pts per day = 175,000 per week
These together total at 233,800pts of anabolic rating per week. Looking to anabolic and androgenic rating this would be DIRECTLY comparable to 2,338mg/week of testosterone. Yes, 2.3g of test as far as anabolic effect.
Let me restate it in simple terms.
40mg/dbol day, and 350mg/week of tren = 2.3g of testosterone a week in anabolic rating.
So why take these drugs when you could simply things and take 2.3g of test a week?
The REASON I say this, is because its beginning to make sense to me. I feel nothing on test at 500mg/week compared to being on test and 50mg of var/day. And var is reported "weak". Well, hell not, TESTOSTERONE is weak compared to var. We just believe that we are getting gains because of water, blood pressure, etc.
I'm not advocating to use these huge amounts of gear to everyone. I'm simply stating, people think that all these other products are better then test, well thats simply because they are more potent. And many people believe anything over 500mg of test is "overkill". Well, once again, its perpetuated bs imo.
I'm beginning to believe pro's hide how much they use, and are truly using 3g+ of test mainlined weekly.
10-28-2012, 05:34 PM
Oh ok, I understand what you're getting at now. It was a bit unclear with that intro post. My apologies.
I agree with you in that aspect. People forget these drugs weren't created to make you huge, all serve different purposes and fail to look at the science behind them.
With that come desired effects from anabolic ratings vs. androgenic ratings and the functions DHT, 19-nor and test derived chemicals have on the body.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
10-28-2012, 05:38 PM
I would agree, 1-3gr/test + deca is likely all they run until show time gets closer.Originally Posted by monsterbox
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
10-28-2012, 05:40 PM
Bro I think the real reason people take PH/DS and oral-only stacks is to avoid injecting. Injecting has a bad stigma (let's face it, it's true) and is definitely a big step for anybody in the field of anabolics.The internet definitely perpetuates the idea of the crazy stack. Way too much bs on the web, hell even on this forum at times.
10-28-2012, 06:16 PM
I appreciate the responses guys.
I've been so afraid of running more than 1g of test because the internet has made me to believe that when you hit 1g of test you turn into a bloated freak and explode to death.
Well, I can't handle npp, deca, or tren. They all make me feel like absolute garbage, the prolactin etc. I also, do not like the idea of pounding orals like var, dbol or whatever.
I would much rather run 3,000mg of test a week, (working my way up there of course) and feel healthy and safe, knowing the only things to watch are blood pressure, and blood thickness, and estrogen.
I still don't want to get to far over 2g of test, so I may keep the ceiling at 2grams and add in 1gram of primo and run that for 6 months.
I am hypothesizing that 2g of test + 1g of primo will equal the power of a 500mg tren cycle with orals, without any of the sides.
10-28-2012, 06:21 PM
Simplification once again for all new readers:
Tren is nothing more than a 5x potent steroid to testosterone in all aspects, except for the fact that its not very clean, is known to stress the kidneys, and has progestin side effects.
If its 500:500 anabolic:androgenic ratio, and you want to run 500mg/week, you could get the same results running 2.5g of test. But wait? noo everyone thinks 2.5g of test is crazy....u tell me
10-28-2012, 10:39 PM
from what ive read i believe the aa ratios are just a comparison of muscle growth(anabolic) to prostate growth(androgenic) in lab rats so there effects on people may not be exactly the same. just a thought
also i dont understand what the benefit of running high test is opposed to favorably anabolic steroids. isnt one of the benefits the ability to get the same growth without all the extra androgenic sides??
btw. i have no doubt the pros use obserd amounts of test, several grams, most of the year. and of coarse they dont reveal any of their doses because ppl my attempt to try the same things without doctor supervision.
also when comparing test to tren the aa ratios may be similar but tren has a profound ability to strip fat while gaining and this effeect is prety unique to tren. idk if its true or not at all but i read a hypothesis on another forum about trens ability to increase the thermic effect of carbohydrates thus burning ore fat.
10-29-2012, 12:37 AM
dont forget to mention that 2-3grams of test a week would cost like $100. thats a lot of fun on the wallet for 16 weeks lol
and the buggest reasons people do orals over injectables are the needle thing, and the illegal source. and lets be honest, what percent of wives/gfs aprove of injectable steroids? 10%? now how many approve of pills, regardless of how much worse they are? a lot more because pills arnt needles
10-29-2012, 01:10 AM
Here's the cycle of an IFBB pro... the only thing missing is his insulin dosage. I'm sure it is quite high, though.
2100mg test cyp ew
1200 mg deca or eq ew
900mg tren e is used when not on the deca or eq
25mg proviron ed
8iu's GH ed
1mg adex eod
800mg test prop ew
1200mg tren A ew
900mg masteron or primo ew
25mg win ed - up to 50mg the last 3 weeks
30mg halo - up to 60mg ed in the last 3 weeks
20iu's GH ed
1mg adex ed - 2.5mg letro the last 2 weeks
Not to mention the DNP, Clen, and other random **** that is thrown in throughout the year.
No SERM, No Cycle, No Problem.
10-29-2012, 03:36 AM
LIke some one said above me- The AA ratios are a bunch of crap, and I have to assume most of the data is not even accessible any more either. You have to take into account methods of administration. Due to overall hormone blood serum levels there are going to be a lot of secondary and tertiary and quaternary conversions via the 5 alpha and local tissue conversions as well.. So in reality we dont know what the androgenicity of any given compound really is.
Plus anecdotal evidence is what we are really more concerned with, of course pharmacokinetics is important, but not if it does not translate into an "in vivo" experience- than really what's the point.
10-29-2012, 09:57 AM
Well if the AA ratio's are inaccurate then that changes the whole story.
But if assuming they are even somewhat representative,
Then "trens magic fat burning affect" is really because 350mg of tren is super strong. Its 5x anabolic, and 5x more androgenic then test.
I have a hard time believing that 350mg of tren is better at "burning fat" or promoting growth than 2.5grams of testosterone.
This is my point, people say not to run over 750mg of test, unless you are 300lbs and a pro bodybuilder, but they recommend 350mg of tren on a average gym rat cycle. Can't count how many times I've seen people state to others "thats way to much test for someone your size"
if you are going to run 350mg tren, you can't say that 2.5g of test is too much. Its the direct equivalent.
10-29-2012, 10:00 AM
10-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Honestly, I dont really ever hear people claiming that 750 is high.. I have ran 1g of test numerous times and I know A LOT of people who always run 1g or higher...I guess it depends in what circles you find your self in.
Getting back to the AA ratio thing...You to remember that results and effects are not simply mediated solely by the binding of the hormone to the androgen receptor.. For example.. Trens fat burning qualities dont come from it binding so heavily to the AR or else we would see that with Cheque Drops or Methyltren.. It could be do to increased localized prostagladin activity in target specific tissues. I havent seen any reference of studies of marker of metabolite excretion for any synthetic compounds in maybe 25+ years, and you're not going to. This is because these products dont have a market by big drug companies so they are not going to throw a bunch of money at doing new studies on a hormone that they cant sell and profit from.
10-30-2012, 09:29 AM
I think it's important to realize that the mechanisms of action have a cascade of consequences. We've been talking a lot about tren and it's affinity for androgen receptors, which are found in fat and account for a lot of its fat burning properties. It's also important to consider nutrient partitioning, catabolic responses and how all this processes affect metabolism and the body's homeostasis. While test and tren could be dosed to be equivalent by an androgenic/anabolic ration, the various mechanisms of action dictate the unique properties of each drug....that wasn't too clear so let me rephrase.
If we take trens effects on androgen receptors, those effects change the bodies glucose metabolism and insulin levels. Changing insulin responses fundamentally alter homeostasis in general. What I'm saying is that the over AA ratio does not really take into account the far reaching consequences of each drugs mechanism of action. Winstrol is another example in that being a DHT derivative, many of its benefits like inhibiting estrogen and progesterone, increasing free T via SHBG, and increasing nitrogen retention when injected versus taken orally, cannot be judged by its relative AA ration.
So while I agree that a lot of the bro science dsnt make sense, I'm not sure AA rations are the best way to judge the effectiveness of a given compound
10-30-2012, 10:00 AM
As already said several times, A:A ratings are very misleading. For example, look at the A:A rating of methyldienelone, which is a 1000:200-300. Now, on paper, this is much more powerful than dianabol or anadrol, but real-world feedback and results are worlds apart between them. Trying to use A:A ratings to quantify doses is absurd and falls into broscience more so than many other claims. Vida's ratings are just one of the tools used when evaluating the potential efficacy of a drug, but it has proven to not be overly reliable.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
10-30-2012, 10:39 AM
With A:A ratios being taken with a grain of salt, I still think the OP is on to something with the stacks some of these guys run when simply bumping test dose up would suffice for what they're doing. Especially when adding size
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
10-30-2012, 09:25 PM
10-30-2012, 10:44 PM
I appreciate all the input, this is very interested.
You know, I'm not too convinced that A:A is extremely misleading.
Why? I'v made most of my gains on 100mg/var, its incredible. Blows the doors off of anything I'v ever used, including test alone at 1.4grams of prop.
Many people would say 100mg/var daily is just barely anything to bark over. Yet, most would say 1.4grams of prop is insane LOL. I'm just trying to point out that some of the "weakest" drugs can be truly amazing. Don't look to my avatar, its 4 years old lol.
One thing that lines up with the A:A rating its Halotestin. With an androgenic rating of 1900, its rated insanely high over testosterone. Well, in my last show, I utilized 700mg/week of masteron for hardness and definition. The last 2 weeks I ran 20mg/day of Halotestin. A mere 20mg gave me INSANE results. It made masteron feel like childs play. I didn't even use an AI into the show because of the amount of hardness promoted. I was in pretty much ketosis for about 5 days, and was almost as strong as 6 weeks earlier. My focus was unreal, and my anger was uncontrollable along with sex drive.
I do realize the A:A ratio's should be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm just beginning to believe that higher doses of mother natures hormone testosterone (if you can tolerate it) and the drugs we write off as weak, can be your best friends in the long run.
10-31-2012, 03:10 AM
this comes down to doing your research knowing your body and doing what works for you.sure there is a ton of bro science out but being able to weed through it and find the truth within is key.this comes with experience.
10-31-2012, 04:08 AM
In for good info..
PEScience Representativehttp://pescience.com/insider http://facebook.com/pescience
11-02-2012, 02:54 PM
I agree with the op in the aspect of testosterone is better at higher doses. The AA part... I have always taken with a grain of salt. Just purely because you can't go by numbers. People's bodies react to exogenous hormones differently and what works for me might not work for you. So in that aspect AA is garbage.
Test being run 1.5g+? Yes for the experienced guys. I ran test E at 900mg and feel like another 300mg ew would have been perfect. Should everyone start going past 750mg ew? I don't think so but I will be at 1.5g Ew for my next cycle.
I applaud you OP for bringing this up and it is a very interesting discussion.
The advice I give is just that... Advice, purely my opinion. Not medical advice
11-02-2012, 02:58 PM
11-06-2012, 04:48 AM
Test is garbage..And is very weak in terms of steroids.. Why do u think people r shifting towards low dose test with high dose anabolics .. Let the orals and other injects run the magic.. High test just equals sides. Orals create a huge surge of igf.. Which is why they r so effective to grow and lean out .. Test over 1g is useless unless on gh.. 8-10iu gh for 1000mg test .. 15-20iu for 2000mg of test.. Besides
250mg test with 700mg weekly tren ace will alwYs have better gains then
2000mg test only.. Your using half the total mg weekly which means sides would also be less.. Test is a base.. High Test is not utilized unless hgh is in the picture.. A:a ratios don't tell the whole pic.. Has something like dbol creates a huge igf spike which causing gains.. Orals will always blow the doors off injects unless you r using something like tren base.. Test suspension, bold no ester.. Which does the same as orals . Causing a huge spike of hormones flooding the blood at one time
Test at 250-350mg weekly as a bases for your orals.. Injects(primo ace, tren ace, bold, npp)
Also adding gh will mitigate your sides on all these injectables your having issues with
I could go into more detail on what each oral does additionally which creates better gains.. Then injects for u.. As most injects r inhertly weak.. Unless very fast acting like I stated.. I just don't feel like it..
Also i wanna touch on the synergy of steroids together..
I read a medical study that compared high dose test to.. Moderate dose test and deca at the same total mg.. Gues which was better.. Same for most steroids.. Do your 1000mg of test cycle.. Now do 450mg test with 75 mg anavar daily.. Same total mg. Total mg is the same it's the synergy.. This will always be.. Less total mg of each steroid individually equals better gains always as well as less sides.
11-06-2012, 04:58 AM
11-06-2012, 06:41 AM
Here bro.. Here's a medical study showing whAt I said.. Same website I got the thing about moderate dose deca/test being equal to high dose test only .. Study showing 100mg a week test plus anavar giving same if not better gains then 600mg a week test only.
11-06-2012, 09:48 AM
M.Ed. Ex Phys
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