This question is for the doctor of AAS lol
- 04-08-2012, 09:27 PM
This question is for the doctor of AAS lol
So I'm thinking about the whole new fasination of blasting and cruising.I'm in week 12 of my cypo/eq cycle and its going great didnt use any orals and thinking I should cruise.let the eq out of my system. Does anyone who has allot of experince in thiS ever changed the type of test they are using? it seems my body has gotten used to cyponate when pertaining to libido and gains seemed to have platued. Should I switch to prop and just stay on test. or maybe test e i know prop would be good for summer. Proviron might be nice cuz my SHCB or what ever mightedhave drpped but there is too many sides for that, any thoughts.
Another question that I have been pondering is instead of PCT'ing with CLOMID or Nolva. why cant I use ADEX and HCG,the reason for this thinking is the sides of Clomid make me emotional so do the Nolvadex. Clomid is way worse I'll cry get emotional paranoid hah well not that bad but I heard it was common. Lets me know ur 2 cents guys and thanks in advance.
- 04-08-2012, 11:32 PM
- 04-08-2012, 11:40 PM
Adex is an ai
Arimidex (Anastrozole) : This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.
AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.
HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) : HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, but im unsure of this from practical experience. The most favorable way is to use it in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 500iu ED. The trick is to end the use of HCG just as the last AAS is running out of your system. So, 3 weeks before the the last ester leaves your blood, you would start the HCG/nolva combo. HCG at about 500iu ED and Nolva 20mg ED. This is done before Nolva/aromasin (for example) PCT starts, and runs about a few weeks longer than the end of the HCG. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. Be careful not to overdose on HCG and permanently desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days
Nolva and clomid are serms
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.
Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT.
SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) : These block certain estrogen receptors, ***ending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a positive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno. Commonly used during PCT, and less often used while cycling. A SERM like nolvadex is widely used in PCT to help kickstart the HPTA back to normal function, in conjunction with other beneficial drugs. To learn how this works, please refer to Anthony Roberts PCT in the PCT section.
They do different things. So no you can't switch nolva/clomid for adex and hcg
04-08-2012, 11:42 PM
04-08-2012, 11:44 PM
04-08-2012, 11:45 PM
Proviron is a strange drug due to the fact that it has many different uses in the bodybuilding world. In this article the main feature I will discuss is its effective properties as an anti-estrogen during a steroid cycle.
Proviron is used during a cycle of steroids because it acts as an anti-estrogen in that due to the drug's unique structure it has a higher affinity to the aromatize enzyme than testosterone, but at the same time it does not convert to estrogen.
This in turn means that if you administer Proviron with testosterone, Proviron will bind to the aromatize enzyme very strongly, which will not allow the testosterone to convert to estrogen and bind with the receptor. This will prevent the usual estrogen build up seen with testosterone like compounds.
Due to Proviron's mechanism of action, using steroids and employing Proviron will prevent the estrogenic side effects and water retention seen while using some of the more androgenic steroids. It has also been noted that Proviron will increase levels of testosterone during a cycle. The mechanism of action for this effect is difficult to explain, but it allows for more of the synthetic testosterone employed during your cycle to be used more efficiently, and not be converted to the hormone estrogen.
Proviron is seen to be effective at dosages from 25mg all the way up to 150mg. For the reasons discussed in this article 25mg to 50mg ED is sufficient for its purpose. Another aspect worth mentioning is that Proviron should not be used post cycle. Proviron should only be used during a cycle because it is an androgen, and when coming of Proviron you could experience some negative effects with your body's natural testosterone levels.
The cost of this drug is very reasonable, so it could be a good addition to your next cycle to prevent estrogen build up.
04-08-2012, 11:49 PM
I've read theses already but thanks greg at what point of your cycle have you thrown in proviron I heard it helps free up free test which helps libido. any recommendations on how much to take or when o for how long on a 16 week cycle?
04-08-2012, 11:54 PM
test is test. The only difference is the esters.Originally Posted by davidq
And i would only recommend doing it if you are experienced with it.
04-09-2012, 12:01 AM
I know good point there is a differnce in the amount of water retention. potency as well. take test suspension for example that stuff is strong as hell
04-09-2012, 12:02 PM
04-09-2012, 03:53 PM
different esters are more potent because of the weight of the ester so the larger the ester the less test is suspended in the solution. for example test e has about 65mg of test in a 100mg/ml shot while prop has something like 89mg in a 100mg/ml shot i would only assume test suspension is close to 100mg because it is not attached to and ester chain and enthanate and cypionate are about the same because their esters are of similar weight. test prop only causes less water retention because it is in your system for less time therefor giving it less time for more of the test to aromatize. but as far as its effects test is test
as far as the clomid nolva pct question the emotional sides are usually caused from the high amount of estrogen and low test(ur hormones similar to a girls, u act like one) i have this effect no matter what serm i use. if i were u i would use a serm to be on the safe side because it is a site specific estrogen blocker it has properties similar to estrogen so it binds to estrogen receptors in breast tissue blocking actual estradiol witch would cause gyno. id rather act like a b!#ch then have tits like one.
another suggestion just because its a trend i see alot off people use winny as a bridge to pct while the esters clear to dry up.
hope this helps
btw, im not a doctor and i havent even injected yet just like to do my reasearch lol
04-09-2012, 03:56 PM
You could have just posted the forum you got all of this from.... hypermuscles.com/f27/anti-es-great-read-193/Originally Posted by gregg1494
As for your questions. I would never take more than 250iu hcg at a time and I would not take it with pct. hcg is used to maintain some testicular function while your hpta function is surprised. Taking it after your cycle is counter productive. Exogenous hcg will interfere with your natural production of LH and other similar hormones. Taking hcg during the cycle keeps them stimulated so they have less ground to make up when your body starts signals for them to reboot.
If you take high doses of hcg like 500-1000, you run the risk of desensitizing. Desensitizing them results in them not responding your body's natural LH.
250 is widely held to be a safe dose. Take it 2-3 times a week. You can even take a lower dose if that works for you. I usually stick around 200.
When it comes to nolva and clomid etc, that's really just research and risk analysis. Nolva might make your cry but I'd cry if I lost all my gains haha. Joking aside you can't rly switch adex for nolva. They are different drugs like the above synopsis says. Fyi: I'd suggest staying away from the Anthony Roberts pct
As for test. Switching to test enanthate won't make a difference because it's almost the exact same as cyp. You could try adding an oral with a high affinity for SHGB like winny (as you mentioned proviron has this same characteristic).
If you want to take something dif all together test prop or Tren or any of those shorter acting compounds will certainly elicit results. Like Gregg said, I'd wait until next time to try those unless you have proper pct etc ready and/or don't care about your little swimmers .. Most ppl use tren or prop to prep for a show because they are very effective but they can have hash sides and shut down your hpta function very very quickly.
04-10-2012, 05:23 AM
Wow props to you guys for giving such great answers.I mean they were great. I just want my libido to be back up I think the proviron wouldbe good tofree up my test and SHGB,AND ERICS IDEA of bridging while the test leaves my body is an excellent idea how about I use anavar instead of winny.BTW if I knew how to give reps I would give it to both of you The storm that was the best answer of my life you too eric.
04-10-2012, 05:25 AM
So anthoney roberts whole nolva stimulates test 3 times better than clomid and blocks estrogen better is a load of crap? I don't doubt it.thanks storm I was gonna use hcg during pct but now I'lll jsut use it right before.
04-10-2012, 07:49 AM
You are very welcome sir.Originally Posted by davidq
I would definitely add something to bridge. I used winny and it worked rly well for me. You could definitely use var if you wanted but you'd want to be sure you took something with a high affinity for SHGB (like proviron).
Winny and proviron have this high affinity for shgb which allows for a greater percentage of free test. Stacking winny and proviron would be an ideal combo in this respect but proviron and var would also work and it would probably be better for your joints. Turinabol is another oral that can bind to SHGB and be very effective at a low dose...
As for the Anthony Roberts stuff...a lot of the information he gives is accurate. I personally prefer nolva to clomid. I just don't like the overall pct. 500iu a day for 3 weeks? That alone will suppress your natural test. Not to mention the overkill of aromasin and nolva.
04-10-2012, 10:27 AM
this thread is what i wish the rest of AM was like theres almost a little joy in helping someone whos tried to help their self first with a little reasearch. and the fact that ppls advice is coming from scientific evidence and actual personal experience not some 16 yr old lying about his age asking what to take to get huge in 4 weeks lol
04-10-2012, 10:48 AM
couple articles on nolva vs clomid
Article from William Llewellyn:
I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell.
And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.
clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor.
In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant.
What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of clomid. With the price of both a 50mg clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.
Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.
The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).
As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.
The Estrogen clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2).
This paper looks at the effects of clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over clomid.
This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.
Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.
In next month's follow-up article I will be discussing the role anti-estrogens play in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Most specifically, I will be detailing what a proper post-cycle ancillary drug program looks like, and explain why anti-estrogens alone are not effective during this window of time.
04-10-2012, 12:33 PM
04-10-2012, 01:33 PM
Well played, Gregg. I'm a big fan of silownia and that Llewellyn article is one of my go-to sources.
I definitely agree with Eric, there is something very refreshing about a thread that uses expert opinions and scientific studies instead of bro science. There is a whole lot of bro science out there. look at the media--everything they say about steroids being deadly, causing psychosis and all that other stuff is bs bro science. Those idiots get in front of the camera and spew garbage with no actual evidence. It's completely untrue and can even be dangerous.
A good friend of mine who will be legitimately competing for his pro card this year thought fat made you fat for all 20 or so years of his bodybuilding career. He ate carbs and protein, thats it and it worked well for a while. As an older guy, he wasn't too excited to listen to me and the other younger guys when we explained his cutting would be much more effective by substituting carbs for healthy fats, after showing him study after study he tried it and had his best showing ever.... All this is to say that a person with a great physique or decades of experience may not fully understand what they are doing and the science behind it. They know it works for them and that is great because knowing what works for you personally is important. Unfortunately, what works for you dsnt mean your methods are correct or the best.
That's where research and expert opinions come in--they can control for certain variables and accurately assess the risks and consequences of different drugs for different people. While experience is important, your methods should always be based on science.
Ok I'm done preaching haha.
Any other questions comments or concerns?
04-10-2012, 02:58 PM
No I just want to thank you guys Eric, greg , and the storm for being so helpful taking time out of your lives to help and give me advise it means allot I mean we are all busy, but taking the time to help means allot.Yes I would say us four are allot more educated than some of things I read or hear people ask on these forums.Most of the time I dont even write anything or comment just shake myhead at their questions,, the famous "whats PCT"? or ohh I need to add test? i cant just cycle tren or deca alone" lol ? or I'm 15 and wanna get big I'm going to injecting 1200 mg a week of test is okay right>?but there are the intelligent ones like you guys.I've been reading allota smart things from a guy named man beast and unreal machine. We'll i'm going to take winney and test for now gonna start winny in a coupledays when I get my hands on some. Use it even after I drop the test all the way before PCT since it leaves your system quilky. Last cycle I just stopped the sustonon and waited untill it cleared my system before PCT so i probably lost allot of my gains from that I should have at least used an oral while i let it clear my system.
The proviron sounds good. i just need my sex drive back, this happened last cycle boners all day and night like crazy untill week 8 then 9 and bam no motivation or wood like before.I heard since winny helps SHgB whatever maybe i'll stay on longer it just sucks being single and worrying about it, The only thing that stopps me from trying proviron is the hair loss I keep reading about winny seems like the safer way to go for raising SHGB or lowering it and the added benifit of muscle mass and shape. Yea I Dont understand why everyone says the whole only clomid works. I trust this chart that I will post for you guys it seems in my exprience allto be true but there we have it again it says that nolva does not boost test at all what gives. I'd choose nolva over clomid anyday cuz clomid makes me paranoid.I dont want to be in PCT for 4 weeks paranoid and emotional, its not from the low test either I have taken comid off and on cycle just to seee what happens and the sides are the same for me, I turninto a nervous wreck, check out this chart and tell me what you guys think. I love nolva and hopfully I love winny too wont lift too heavy becasue of the whol dry joints thing.oh and can i mix the oil and water injectable lol.test and winny or differnt syrings thats allota jabs hahaa owell
04-10-2012, 03:00 PM
04-10-2012, 04:41 PM
y not use oral win or use the win u have orally its the same thing. never used it but hear its a painful everyday injection
04-11-2012, 02:31 AM
04-11-2012, 10:36 AM
04-11-2012, 10:42 AM
My bad. I didn't see the above comment.
If you can get tbol that would be another good option. Fairly high affinity for SHBG solid gains and much cheaper than var. a low dose of tbol goes a long way
04-11-2012, 10:10 PM
Tbol is turnabol right well i've taklen m-drol and h-drol which I know arn"t the same h-drol is pretty close, but I like how anavr sounds sounds like a dream no sides, keeping gains, lean fat that stays off, counds like a miracle
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