Test 500/Anavar Cycle: Questions on Aromasin/HCG
- 04-07-2012, 11:28 PM
Test 500/Anavar Cycle: Questions on Aromasin/HCG
Hey everyone, I would like to thank you for all the help you've given me so far in setting up the fine details of my first real deal cycle. Now, I have a few questions for things that I've seen conflicting information on.
First things first, my plan so far:
Test500 pinned 2x per week (Monday/Thursday), 250mg/pin for a total of 500mg per week.
Anavar oral dosed, starting at 50mg ED.
PCT: I'mg going to run a Torem/Clomid combo, which I already have on hand.
Planning on running this for a 12 week cycle, possibly front loading the first two weeks to get things going with the test.
Now, my questions are regarding the HCG:
I was planning on throwing it in for 2 weeks at 500iu 2x a week at the 8 week mark, what are your thoughts on this? I have it on hand and yes, it's the real deal. My main emphasis here is to keep the atrophy as minimal as possible and see if I can keep the natural production going as well. Yes, I'm aware of the desensitization and DHT risks, so I'm just wondering what everyone had in mind.
As for the Aromasin (Exemestane):
I have the 12.5mg tablets ready to go, but I've seen a lot of conflicting ideas on this. I've seen recommendations of 6mg every day, 12.5 EOD as well as 12.5 ED. I know this is often user dependent, but what would be a good starting point, and what should gauge the changes (if needed) to the dosage protocol?
Looking to get everything nailed to a T before getting started, so once again, your experience is appreciated!
- 04-08-2012, 12:47 AM
I wouldn't front load just run it as normal.everything looks fine. I'm not sure on the hcg and Aromasin.I'll bump this for ya for answers on that part.
04-08-2012, 02:55 PM
04-08-2012, 02:59 PM
id go a few more weeks on the hcg, say 6 weeks at 250iu 2x/week. a good starting dose of aromasin is 12.5eod beginning roughly week 4 or if you feel e2 sides earlier start then
04-08-2012, 08:23 PM
04-10-2012, 05:58 PM
04-10-2012, 06:10 PM
04-12-2012, 04:52 AM
04-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Do not do this!Originally Posted by jt339
Blast could lead to some serious problems... It can desensitize you leydig cells, which will make it harder to recover.
Here is one study. If you look at related articles etc you will find plenty more.
Bulldogs advice is spot on in fact you could even take a lower dose more often if you really wanted to (150iu 3 times a week)
Jt I hope you didnt take that personally. Lots of ppl suggest blasting but I have yet to see any research showing that blasting has any benefits. If you have any studies etc I would love to see them--i'm always trying to take better care of the "boys"
04-12-2012, 12:50 PM
04-14-2012, 10:35 AM
I went through some of the studies he uses a while back and they seemed to add up. if you have any studies showing the blast is better id like to take a look at them and see what the consensus is.
HCG - Unraveled
By Eric M. Potratz
PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.
HCG unraveled -
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.
When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) - All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.
Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960's) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.
One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production - and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.
To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)
Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.
The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)
These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).
In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn't use it on cycle.
Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it's important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body's own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)
A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body's natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG 'kick starting' dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)
Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from "on cycle" to "off cycle" thus avoiding the post cycle crash.
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Keeney DS, et al.
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Fertil Steril 33:201-203
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Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282-287
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Padron RS, et al. 1980
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New York: Academic Press, Inc.; 51-66
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04-14-2012, 11:14 AM
04-14-2012, 11:51 AM
Consider your source. Hell the opening sentence is not even true. Yes, not using hcg can shut down your balls on cycle, but this whole desensitization causing permanent shut down is just garbage. If that were the case one cycle would shut down most people permanently and we know from our gear using predecessors from the 70s, 80s and 90s that this isn't true. The studies he uses also bend to support his beliefs. Also, sentences like this SHOULD have made you think "red flag:"
So he's saying not only is it possible to lose test production it is likely. I know old meat heads at my gym who started using in the 90s and a few in the 80s that still dont use a pct and their test levels come back. Granted, they are not as high as mine, but would you expect that 45-55 year old men would have a higher test production than a 23 year old?If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function - but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won't regain full testicular function.
This is EXTREMELY misleading. Yes, hcg will do those things in high concentrations, BUT you are not recovering while on the hcg AND if you remember, the aromatase enzyme is at fault here like stated in the previous study. Also, these receptors can regenerate just as quickly as any other receptor in the body that has downregulated. From a biological perspective, it makes no sense that these receptors would stay down regulated in the conditions of decreasing hcg and low LH.Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery.
What the article is saying and what his proof is are not the same thing. He is trying to make you believe that hcg is imperative to full recovery. If you sift though his biased opinions (remember, this guy owns a company that makes products that supposedly mimic hcg), you'll see that all the article is really saying is that you become desensitized to hcg, NOT LH. So why you may need to use more at the end of a cycle blasting because you are desensitized to the hcg, this does not mean that your test production will not come back to normal or close to it. If you think that using hcg throughout every cycle is going to keep your balls producing normal amounts of test your whole life without consequence you are sadly mistaken. hcg is suppressive in itself, running it too long can shut you down. Yep, the chemical thats suppose to save your balls can shut you down if you use it long enough and happen to be unlucky.
I knew this article was going to be worthless or close to it when I saw the author. I am not even promoting blasting, using it thorughout the cycle is clearly a much better option. I just get pissed off when I see these company owners throwing together research to make the general population believe something that will benefit his/her company that isn't necessarily true. He probably didn't even write it and had someone ghost-write it for him!
04-15-2012, 02:17 PM
1) permanent shut down does not mean 100% of your balls go away. If i do a cycle and do a bad pct, i could only get back to 99% of my pre-cycle test production--that is permanent shut down. he never says your balls will stay the size of peanuts and that you will have zero test. losing one percent adds up.
2) referencing guys from over 40 years ago makes absolutely no sense. I'm talking about research and studies. have you checked these old guys out? do you know how well their balls are working?
3)yes this guy uses qualifiers because he hasn't personally done these studies. he is using facts and principles from studies that have been done and is applying them... it wouldn't be ethical to take a group of guys and purposely destroy their balls... thats why it is LIKELY.
4)how do you know if their levels come back unless you're taking sperm counts or something... you keep bashing everything i put up but you fail to produce a single study.
5) so its only the aromatase enzyme? thats the only reason? if you were speaking from a biological perspective you'd show some evidence
6)if you are actually trying to tell me HCG and LH are so different that your body dsnt react extremely similarly to them, you're insane. They are so similary that too much of one effects the other. HCG exerts its effects because it binds to many of the same receptors. those receptors can become desensitized, which effects LH. that is a simplified explanation but it still holds true.
7)HCG suppresses your natural LH because your body thinks its the same thing... how could it be suppressive if it was so different? the suppression proves they are so similar that they are almost interchangeable in this scenario
8)You just suggested he blast. thats how all of this started..... you also just said taking throughout is a better option....so you're just arguing with me and misleading people for the fun of it?
get as pissed off as you want but don't put it on a forum without any evidence. I am 100% willing to be wrong if you can prove it
04-15-2012, 02:27 PM
The recommended dose by almost every informed doctor and AAS veterans is 250iu, twice a week, during cycle. I'd personally recommend continuing into PCT at the same dose.
04-15-2012, 04:17 PM
Say what you will, but I will take field tested over well-researched any day of the week in any circumstance. I review their blood work for them. I'm a med student so it gives me some practice and most of them don't know how to interpret it.2) referencing guys from over 40 years ago makes absolutely no sense. I'm talking about research and studies. have you checked these old guys out? do you know how well their balls are working?
Again, our definitions of permanent shut down were different. This makes more sense now.3)yes this guy uses qualifiers because he hasn't personally done these studies. he is using facts and principles from studies that have been done and is applying them... it wouldn't be ethical to take a group of guys and purposely destroy their balls... thats why it is LIKELY.
As stated, I review their blood work for them.4)how do you know if their levels come back unless you're taking sperm counts or something... you keep bashing everything i put up but you fail to produce a single study.
Bro, you provided the study that said it was the aromatase enyzme.5) so its only the aromatase enzyme? thats the only reason? if you were speaking from a biological perspective you'd show some evidence
Not saying they are extremely different. FYI, desensitized = receptor down regulation usually because of too much substrate, in this case, hcg. Down regulated receptors will up regulate when their substrate is low unless pathology is present. This is basic cell bio, I learned it as a sophomore in undergrad.6)if you are actually trying to tell me HCG and LH are so different that your body dsnt react extremely similarly to them, you're insane. They are so similary that too much of one effects the other. HCG exerts its effects because it binds to many of the same receptors. those receptors can become desensitized, which effects LH. that is a simplified explanation but it still holds true.
Its suppressive because stimulation of GnRH is shut down. No GnRH = No FSH and LH = no test.7)HCG suppresses your natural LH because your body thinks its the same thing... how could it be suppressive if it was so different? the suppression proves they are so similar that they are almost interchangeable in this scenario
Because I'm assuming he has 2000iu's which isn't much. I never suggested using an appropriate amount of hcg thoughout his cycle (500iu's a week which I am assuming he cannot do as I'm assuming only 2000iu's) was an inferior option.8)You just suggested he blast. thats how all of this started..... you also just said taking throughout is a better option....so you're just arguing with me and misleading people for the fun of it?
get as pissed off as you want but don't put it on a forum without any evidence. I am 100% willing to be wrong if you can prove it
Relax bro, I wasn't pissed at you. I was pissed at the article itself. Although admitedly I'm less pissed now that permanent shut down has been cleared up.
04-15-2012, 04:19 PM
04-15-2012, 04:58 PM
04-15-2012, 09:12 PM
04-15-2012, 11:53 PM
04-17-2012, 02:38 AM
04-17-2012, 06:24 PM
04-17-2012, 06:55 PM
var isnt too potent in itself, for this reason most ppl dont like starting with it. ive never heard anything bad about dbol, itll def kick things off for your. most ppl use var during a cycle or as a bridge cuz it helps you keep gains without suppressing recovery too much
if you cant get more hcg, id run 200iu every 4 days or so for as long as you can at the end of your cycle--prolly the last 5 or so weeks. it definitely wont be as effective as running it throughout but id worry about desensitizing by using too much at once. thats just me tho. im not sure what input other ppl will have
04-18-2012, 01:52 PM
Well I guess I should mention that I have 5,000 iu of HCG on hand and can easily get more...
Can we go from there?
04-21-2012, 04:12 PM
so you do have enough hcg to run it through the entire cycle haha.
run 200-250 iu every 3 to 4 days throughout the cycle. i wouldnt start it up until week 3 or so and then run it up to pct
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