First Test Run Proposal.

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    First Test Run Proposal.


    I'm 24 and I weight 215~ about 17% bf
    I have run DMZ solo, Epi/Super bridge with formastanzol.
    My first run was great, I lost body fat I got stronger it was great. The only thing that sucked was the back pumps at the end were too much to do deads, even with 5g or more of taurine. I ate really clean, did cardio before my lifts and didnt drink for the 6 weeks or the 4 of PCT.


    My second run which was also 6 weeks wasn't as good I had decent size gains but mostly water. I was eating as much as I could and didn't drink for the second run either. It was my winter bulk and I kept maybe 5 lbs from it but I didn't like how I looked as much. I just felt for the amount of money I spent I might as well get some test.


    So my concerns with my first run is that I don't want my hairline to be destroyed and I am gyno prone maybe because I used to be a fat kid? I am going to start sometime in April I'm waiting until my diet is on point and my routine is perfect. I finished pct in Jan. So I ran a few peptides and now I am just taking a little break from lifting heavy. I guess I should pick up Nizoral to prevent back acne too hear that helps if you get oily.


    My current lifts
    Squat 405 x 1
    Dead 465 x 1
    Bench 285 x 3
    Press not really sure what I would max at.


    My goal for this cycle is to get lean and strength from the cycle. I plan to start as a said sometime next month but I am just slimming down a little before hand closer to 10% bf. I really would like to hear what you guys think of these cycles I am leaning towards the second one. Let me know what you think. Also, I think I am going to stop using pwo with creatine in it to help me have a more lean look.


    Well here it is.


    Cycle 1
    W 1-4 Winny (oral) 50mg/D
    W 1-10 Test Enth 200mg E3D
    W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week)

    Cycle 2
    W 1-8 Test Prop 100mg EOD (Might run a blend)
    W 1-8 Adex 0.25mg EOD
    W 1-6 Var 20mg 3x/d


    PCT.
    Clomiphene or Tamoxifen Citrate I am going to order both.
    Formastanzol (maybe on cycle instead of Adex)
    Erase(maybe on cycle?)
    HCGenerate 6/day

    Tell me what you think.

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    looks pretty solid to me.though I would pick up some femara just in case even though you have adex I know femara is very effective for gyno .
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    Get that body fat down bro. Focus on losing 2lbs a week with lower carbs on off days and higher on lifting days. I have 30g fat every day, 50g carbs on off days and 200 on lifting days keeping the carbs in the first half of the day. If you just take two months to do this you can get your bf down to 12-13%. If you continue to cut on cycle you should hit sub 10% by the middle of your cycle.
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    ^^^ that bro
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    So I am like 12% not as bad as I thought. I have epi on hand should I throw that in the mix too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by w7shred View Post
    So I am like 12% not as bad as I thought. I have epi on hand should I throw that in the mix too?
    If you are 12% and looking at yourself from the front there should be nearly a straight line from the lateral ribs to the lateral ilium. and your top abs should be poking through. Is this the case?
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    17% and 12% should look quite different to you in the mirror.
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    What mad you switch from test e to prop?
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    shorter cycle would have been prop duh. And Yeah def closer to 12% just trying to choose how much var to use
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    It doesnt matter how long you're gone some things are always going to be the same... (not in a bad way)

    Cycle 1: Test is too short term. Would see true efficacy reached with another 4-6 weeks. I would ditch the winny as a kick, use tbol or anadrol. (yes wet but if your food and training/cardio on point this will much greater suit your purposes as you are not trying to diet in for a show or anything)

    Cycle 2: Short ester test is never my suggestion on a first run, it will do the trick but often yields greater sides. And hell if you're just starting chances are you've nowhere near nailed a good source yet and cheap prop hurts like a mother! Additionally The var isnt going to show through very well at such a low dose, for cost you're much better off swapping for the var as i mentioned earlier if this was truly you're ideal cycle.
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    So i decided on enth on 12 weeks with var to start the 6 but only 150 e3d of test. how much var should I run?
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    The dosage of the test is going to be by feel man. If the 450 is too little i'd have a bit on backup just in case. As for the var, still curious... Are you trying to shed down to like 7% or something? Var can yield some quality gains, dont get me wrong but i wouldnt add it unless my goal was dropping bodyfat or a very strict recomp. But my preference aside. I'd say 80-100mg ed is the sweetspot for most. With a drug this expensive i'd only dose on WO days but thats just me. In my next cut I will be going as high as 150mg every workout day but I have run var before and I'm at almost 270 currently.

    Guarantee you hear it daily here. But suggested dosages are study tools not guidelines. Take the info and study with it in mind. EVERY substance works differently for EVERY person. No exceptions! What works for bob is not necessarily a sure thing for joe. With this being your first run, keep it simple so you know exactly which drug is doing what for you... I'd run 4 weeks of dbol or tbol if you're concerned with wet gains and then the Test solo (with the anastrazole in there keeping gains to a minimum). Your pct looks solid. And just monitor your food and sleep well so you know if its you or the test that are lagging!!
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    I just want to get ripped with strength gains.
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    The cycle will help but your best bet for getting cut is going to be diet bro. I'd take the cost from the anavar, flip it for dbol and add two more weeks to the test. Eat clean, cycle carbs, cardio 3-4x a week. And let the test do the rest so to speak. Strength will come therein, shredding can come as well from the test alone. The dbol or other kick is simply that a kickstart, something to bide the time and prime your body for the exogenous introduction of other hormones.

    I've run quite a few cycles and those are just my opinions. But like i said dont obey that, just consider it. Hope you get some nice cuts and gains from your run bro!
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    Quote Originally Posted by elementrip
    The cycle will help but your best bet for getting cut is going to be diet bro. I'd take the cost from the anavar, flip it for dbol and add two more weeks to the test. Eat clean, cycle carbs, cardio 3-4x a week. And let the test do the rest so to speak. Strength will come therein, shredding can come as well from the test alone. The dbol or other kick is simply that a kickstart, something to bide the time and prime your body for the exogenous introduction of other hormones.

    I've run quite a few cycles and those are just my opinions. But like i said dont obey that, just consider it. Hope you get some nice cuts and gains from your run bro!
    Element is spot on with this. Skip the winny and drop the var. a lot of people like dbol or you could go with a tbol if you wanted. Dbol would be better in terms of sheer mass.

    What's this test E3D? Test enanth has a half life of 7-10 days. You could split it up twice a week for the first 3 weeks but after that your blood levels are stable so more than once a week dsnt rly make sense. Like element said you want to run in for awhile. At least 10 or 12 weeks.

    Are you taking hcg? You said you had trouble keeping gains from an earlier cycle so try taking low doses of hcg (~200iu 3x a week) during your cycle so your natural test can reboot faster when you're done.

    As far as cutting down. Don't starve yourself too much. Eat clean and as long as you eat clean you'll be all set. It's better to eat more and lift or workout more. Eating more and working out harder is better than eating less and working out less.

    Test changes the nitrogen balance of your body and the nutrient partitioning. Aka you utilize more protein and more of the calories you eat go to gaining muscle. My friend calls it beast mode. Eat a ton of clean food and just go nuts with exercise. Lift, sprint, play bball, do whatever but be active and let the test do what it does
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    To me, anavar is not worth running unless you're already below 10% bf. Also, you're not going to have more sides with prop than enth, not sure why that was suggested. The only time you would run into sides with prop over enth is if you aren't injecting enough and your levels are all over the place. NEVER run var as a kickstart. That **** is next to worthless when you start your cycle. Its much better at the end when androgen levels are still high. Agreed with the above about getting some dbol and just watching your diet. Its cheaper and the strength gains are about equal. Save the winny and var for when you're below 10% as that is when they both shine.

    And don't listen to the dude above me regarding injections. Twice a week, 3.5 days apart with enth is best.
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    And don't listen to the dude above me regarding injections. Twice a week, 3.5 days apart with enth is best.[/QUOTE]

    prop is very comparable to enth. The only rly bad symptom can be the irritation and fever, which can be really bad in some people and non existent in other

    I'm not trying to pick a fight but could explain why twice a week is always better after 5 weeks of use? Obviously there is the potential to have fluctuating levels but with proper injection protocols it shouldn't matter if you are already 4 or 5 weeks in.

    You also lose anywhere from .1-.2 mls every time you inject, which adds up over a 12 or 16 week cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Storm16 View Post

    prop is very comparable to enth. The only rly bad symptom can be the irritation and fever, which can be really bad in some people and non existent in other

    I'm not trying to pick a fight but could explain why twice a week is always better after 5 weeks of use? Obviously there is the potential to have fluctuating levels but with proper injection protocols it shouldn't matter if you are already 4 or 5 weeks in.

    You also lose anywhere from .1-.2 mls every time you inject, which adds up over a 12 or 16 week cycle.
    Fever with prop? That means you have an infection or you have test flu which you can also get with enth. I have found that sides are less if you inject prior to each half-life. 3.5 days is about 2 days short of enth and will keep levels very stable. If you don't think this is of much use, try injecting tren ace eod vs. ed. Made a huge difference for me. Concerning losing your gear in every injection, get some filtered oil and this won't be an issue. Plus, it makes PIP less intense or non-existent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt339

    Fever with prop? That means you have an infection or you have test flu which you can also get with enth. I have found that sides are less if you inject prior to each half-life. 3.5 days is about 2 days short of enth and will keep levels very stable. If you don't think this is of much use, try injecting tren ace eod vs. ed. Made a huge difference for me. Concerning losing your gear in every injection, get some filtered oil and this won't be an issue. Plus, it makes PIP less intense or non-existent.
    Soreness and fever are fairly standard with test prop, much more so than test e and from what I understand it's rare w test e and usually at higher doses.


    Comparing test enanth and tren acetate is tough

    ....So injection frequency is determined by the pharmacokinetics of the drug you're using. Test e has a half life of around 8-12 days (most believe it to be around 9). It takes awhile for your blood levels to stabilize regardless of what drug you're taking (approximately 4 half-lifes).

    So if you take 400mg test e, 10 days later you will have 200, 10 days after that you will have 100 etc etc. the reason it kicks in after several weeks is because all of the half lives from the previous 4 weeks build up in your system and stabilize at the dose you are using.


    While your point about tren does make sense, it really only applies to tren. Tren has a much shorter half life and kicks in faster. The shorter the half life, the more acute the effects and the more susceptible that drug is to fluctuation. Because tren works very differently from test e, it can't rly be compared. I'm sure injecting ed is dif compared to eod but that is a very dif compound.

    Basically, assuming you are injecting into the muscle belly and not going into blood vessels, the test e will decrease slowly, and once you have stable blood levels, injecting once a week is all that's actually necessary. If twice a week makes you feel better--go for it. But based on the science, it isn't necessary
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    Being on TRT I can tell you from experience that every 3.5 days is far superior to once a week with test e and test cyp for keeping blood levels stable.

    Not sure where you get the .1 - .2 loss statistic from. I use a 1 ml 25 ga and there is nowhere near .1 left after injection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Storm16 View Post
    Soreness and fever are fairly standard with test prop, much more so than test e and from what I understand it's rare w test e and usually at higher doses.
    Soreness is, fever is definitely not.


    Comparing test enanth and tren acetate is tough
    I used tren as an example as it usually has the most sides. When levels are fluctuating too much you will see more sides.

    ....So injection frequency is determined by the pharmacokinetics of the drug you're using. Test e has a half life of around 8-12 days (most believe it to be around 9). It takes awhile for your blood levels to stabilize regardless of what drug you're taking (approximately 4 half-lifes).


    So if you take 400mg test e, 10 days later you will have 200, 10 days after that you will have 100 etc etc. the reason it kicks in after several weeks is because all of the half lives from the previous 4 weeks build up in your system and stabilize at the dose you are using.

    Half life is 5.5 days, active life is around 10.5 days. These are not the same things.

    While your point about tren does make sense, it really only applies to tren. Tren has a much shorter half life and kicks in faster. The shorter the half life, the more acute the effects and the more susceptible that drug is to fluctuation. Because tren works very differently from test e, it can't rly be compared. I'm sure injecting ed is dif compared to eod but that is a very dif compound.
    I was using it to demonstrate how fluctuating hormones can cause you to have more sides, not comparing test to tren.

    Basically, assuming you are injecting into the muscle belly and not going into blood vessels, the test e will decrease slowly, and once you have stable blood levels, injecting once a week is all that's actually necessary. If twice a week makes you feel better--go for it.
    Research half life versus active life.

    But based on the science, it isn't necessary
    Misinterpreting definitions and trying to form arguments based on those misinterpretations is hardly science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post

    Not sure where you get the .1 - .2 loss statistic from. I use a 1 ml 25 ga and there is nowhere near .1 left after injection.
    Its from changing the needles on the syringe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt339 View Post
    Its from changing the needles on the syringe.
    I don't change the needles. 25ga slides right in even after dulled from plunger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    I don't change the needles. 25ga slides right in even after dulled from plunger.
    Well I'd say you're part of the minority. That's pretty hardcore though haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt339 View Post
    Well I'd say you're part of the minority. That's pretty hardcore though haha.
    Sissies! lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt339 View Post
    Soreness is, fever is definitely not.




    I used tren as an example as it usually has the most sides. When levels are fluctuating too much you will see more sides.




    Half life is 5.5 days, active life is around 10.5 days. These are not the same things.



    I was using it to demonstrate how fluctuating hormones can cause you to have more sides, not comparing test to tren.



    Research half life versus active life.



    Misinterpreting definitions and trying to form arguments based on those misinterpretations is hardly science.

    the half life is not 5.5 days. active life is around 15-17 days. lots of bro science says the half-life is 5.5 days but thats not right. the bro science is based on older studies with varying doses and very questionable validity, which is evident form reading over the methods and discussions of the studies...idk what studies this guy is talking about tho cuz he hasnt given any.


    half life around 7 days in normal males
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772547[/url]

    test e and test cyp have same half-life.
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502321/[/url]

    cyp half life 8 days
    mesomorphosis.com/downloads/uspi-testosterone-cypionate.pdf

    annual review of medicine says "For the treatment of testosterone deficiency in the adult male, one of the two long-acting esters of testosterone, testosterone enanthate or testosterone cypionate, should be administered by intramuscular injection, 200 mg every two weeks or 300 mg every three weeks." this is the protocol for hrt. doses are given before test levels fall below normal. 200mg after 2 weeks would be 50mg. 300 after 3 weeks would be 75mg. a 5 day half life would also put these levels in a lower but somewhat normal range which is why its important to note that a 2006 urology study found "The pharmacokinetics of testosterone cypionate are similar to those of testosterone enanthate. [20] Nankin" ..... using intramuscular testosterone cypionate 200 mg showed that serum testosterone levels rise to peak values 2-5 days following administration, with levels falling to basal values by days 13 or 14...7 day half life makes 50 mg basal (true). 5 day half life would mean 25 is basal (not true).

    full texts of these and other studies exist but they require login information through my school. if anyone goes to med school or is at a university with some sort of medical school program, it isnt hard to find recent studies that reliably test the pharmacokinetics of these and other drugs. hopefully everyone can find someone who has access to these resources. maybe its your friend or a friend of a friend or whatever.

    My good friend who is an ortho got this site from an endo he works with who happens to be a bodybuilding enthusiast. he recommends this site for anyone looking for information go to silownia...net

    jt339, idk who you are or what you do. you may be a trainer or a doctor or an accountant-idk. if your an endocrinologist or med student speak up, otherwise this isnt gonna go anywhere and we will disagree all day. we both "know" we are "right".
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Storm16 View Post
    the half life is not 5.5 days. active life is around 15-17 days.
    After looking over the actual research it appears the enth half life is around 7-7.5 days and the active life is around 14. You were right, however, it doesn't change how I would dose this.


    test e and test cyp have same half-life.
    ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502321/
    This doesn't say they have the same half life, it says they are similar. Cyp is one carbon longer than enth and thus has a longer half-life.

    I took this as common knowledge and didn't bother to look it up myself. My mistake. However, I still wouldn't inject once every seven days. I get bad acne just from injecting prop eod and that is one day before the half-life. I've always been told that you should take your gear at half the half life, but I had never thought about why I injected 3.5 days later with enth. Turns out the half life is 7 days. Makes sense I suppose.

    Its not relevant, but I am a medical student with a biochemistry background.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt339


    Its not relevant, but I am a medical student with a biochemistry background.
    Haha I'm in the same path.

    I only emphasize this because a beginner friend of mine was under the impression he had to pin three times a week for all 12 weeks. He didn't spread out his sites enough which attributed to the infection he got.
    Twice a week is good and there's evidence to support its benefits but if you aren't comfortable rotating sites and such it isn't the be all end all.
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    So I am in week 6.
    in week 2 I threw in Epistrong at 15 mgs 3/day
    and just finished the Var, Still at 600 mgs Test E. I ran out of epi, just 4 weeks of it and I feel as if my erections aren't as hard as they have been. Should I pick up another bottle of Epi? I was going to get proviron but I hate going about my only way of getting it. And I am trying to be cautious of my liver. thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by w7shred
    So I am in week 6.
    in week 2 I threw in Epistrong at 15 mgs 3/day
    and just finished the Var, Still at 600 mgs Test E. I ran out of epi, just 4 weeks of it and I feel as if my erections aren't as hard as they have been. Should I pick up another bottle of Epi? I was going to get proviron but I hate going about my only way of getting it. And I am trying to be cautious of my liver. thoughts?
    Wait in confused. Are you saying the test is messing with you? Stopping you from getting good wood?
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    no the stop in epi made my sex drop a little bit enough to notice though
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    Quote Originally Posted by w7shred View Post
    no the stop in epi made my sex drop a little bit enough to notice though
    oh ok... but your sex drive should still be off the charts with or without epi, compared to when you arent on cycle i mean...is that the case?
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