Legendary PIP. Gear crashing in muscle... How to fix?
- 11-10-2011, 11:02 PM
Legendary PIP. Gear crashing in muscle... How to fix?
So I got some really high concentration sust-like-blend from "A". You know who it is, you know what it is... So ok, most people are complaining of some seriously legendary PIP on this gear. I thought I'd ask the vets here... How do I fix this stuff?
From my understanding of it, gear can crash after injection if there's not enough solvent to hold the hormone once it's exposed to an aqueous environment ie your body. My idea would be to add a little bit of ethyl oleate to a pin, but... how much? 450mg/ml gear would presumably have 2%BB and 20%BA, but that's just a guess. Could I just add some EO to a pin? Additionally, I was reading that if the gear is such a high concentration your body will absorb the oil first, leaving the hormone and ester behind, causing it to crystallize in your muscle tissue. Additionally I could add +/- 1ml of usp grapeseed oil to the pin instead of EO. I could tinker either way as well to see what works.
Here's some backstory on my injections; pin 1 was ok until 2 days after... then the pain was unbearable. I pinned the 2nd on day 3 and same thing, 2 days after BAM. The leg that had pin 1 is ok now, and I'm switching to weekly inj instead of e3d. I figure it's made for that anyway. I don't need test flu. Leg with pin 2 is still made entirely of wood. The pain is the stuff of legends.
I KNOW it's not an infection because leg 1 is fine now after 6 days. No redness, no swelling. Sorry for detailed explanation, I know some guys like to disassemble what you type down and look for mistakes.
So gents (ladies?) how do I fix this botched up kitchen work from our "friends" at "A".
- 11-11-2011, 05:47 PM
2. Buy a 20ml sealed vial, and fill it with 10ml of filtered oil. (cottonseed or grapeseed are my favorites) To filter it, just draw it up and push it through a whatmans filter. Then, transfer 'A's' sus blend into the vial with the filtered oil.
That should make it half the concentration and half the BA/BB concentration as well. That should keep the pain way down.
11-12-2011, 01:43 AM
I don't think the pain is because of the BA/BB, bro. This stuff is crashing in the muscle... it has to be. This isn't normal "oh man my leg hurts" kind of pip. This is "oh i just got beat out of a gang with rusty pipe wrenches" sort of pip. It's not right, dude. Not right at all. If you're saying that changing the concentration will change the fact that its crashing... OK. I'm going to try it. I think I'll just add the oil first, and if somebody gives me an answer about the EO then i'll try it with just that, and then 1/2-1/2 of both. Ideally I'd like to still shoot as little volume as possible. I mean... that was the whole point, right?
11-29-2011, 04:13 AM
i had some real bad pip from a test-enanthate once. it crippled me completely. drawing it up at a 1:1 ratio with grapeseed oil in a syringe and pinning it, helped a little, but not much and it still left awful pip. the issue, i think, is you have no idea how much solvents were used in the oil, in my case it could have been crashing due to too little bb which would mean it would still be crashing when diluting the oil further with more oil, at least that was what i postulated. i think if you mix it with eo, assuming you aren't allergic, then it will help immensely, and honestly if it's crashing that badly i would dilute it to the point where absolutely 0 pain or discomfort is felt as the pip is what causes scar tissue build up.
11-29-2011, 03:38 PM
I've diluted it in grapeseed and it did help... a little. My right quad accepted it pretty well, but when I did my left I felt pain even when I was injecting. The muscle started spasming and cramping directly after and has been since. Guess I hit a nerve or something? I should have pulled out when I started getting pain but I just kept going.
12-04-2011, 08:16 PM
bump and update
Just to bump and give a quick update:
Last quad inject was super painful even diluted with sterile oil. Cramping all week. I'm guessing because I hit the rectus femoris rather than the vastus like usual. Today... my entire thigh (the one I injected a week ago) is covered in red itchy welts. Crazy allergic reaction to the gear or coincidence? Benedryl calmed it down, luckily.
So I'm going to try adding some EO and see what happens. I have no idea how much to add, but I'll search around the net and see what I come up with. If anybody wants to add their insight, I'd sorely appreciate it.
12-05-2011, 06:54 AM
If I were u id trash it and get something else. Ive never had welts from a pin. The only juice that i get pain from is test p.Originally Posted by tbonesteakboy
12-05-2011, 11:01 AM
So it's 450mg/ml... pretty high concentration. Agreed though, maybe I'll just get rid of this off and get something different. I'd MUCH rather just try to make this work and not deal with busting up my cycle... but I swear if I get one more bad reaction that's it. Game over man.
I mixed in about 30% EO to this last pin... Felt nice and easy going in. Easiest pin I've had in a long time. Glute hurts a bit this morning but totally manageable. Also, since I didn't have 1.5" pins I had to bury to the hilt and it snagged the skin when I pulled out... a bit of blood after removing it, too. Hoping the pip I have now is all I'll get, but that hasn't been the going rate for this stuff. Tomorrow will be the deciding factor. If I feel like an amputee tomorrow... then that's it. I'm getting rid of it.
Forgot to mention I'm using epistane as well to control estrogen, and keep the gains semi-dry. It's been working very well for that so far now that the gains are starting to roll in. No water retention, using AI once every 4 days or as needed.
12-05-2011, 11:09 AM
I get pain from tren injects in my quads every time. I've noticed that if I do a minimum of 30 minutes of cardio working my legs within 2 hours after injection, it eases the pain almost completely. I do cardio now after every workout for this very reason.
12-05-2011, 11:52 AM
12-05-2011, 12:36 PM
Haha, I know the feeling all to well. The elliptical machine is where it's at. Half a mile on that sucker should get enough blood flow to the leg to help dissolve the crystallized gear left behind in your muscle. The elliptical is low impact plus you should be doing cardio anyway. Think of it as a forced win win situation. As long as the site isn't red or swollen like hell or bruised, you should be alright. Virgin muscle also tends to be more sensitive than muscle that is used to getting gear pounded in. So the more you do it, the easier it gets. Here is an interesting post on another forum that's worth a read.
Pain is caused when the oil/solvents are absorbed by the body and crystals are left behind.
Short esters (propionate or acetate) are harder, more painful crystals with melting points in the 100c range.
A hormone with a longer esters (excluding cypionate - cyp is long but also high melting point) can have a melting point in the 20c-40c range. not far off from human body temp.
Pain is also caused by concentration of your gear.
Building off of point 1: Let's say it takes the body 24 hours to absorb 1mL of a certain oil/solvent blend, and 24 hours to absorb 50mg of Testosterone Propionate . If 50mg (or less) of testosterone propionate is in 1mL of that oil, this injection should be painless. On the other hand, if 100mg of testosterone propionate is in that same 1mL of solution, then after 24 hours the body will have absorbed 50mg and 1mL, leaving 50mg behind in the injection area, crystalized and painful.
Its better to shoot 3mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate than 1mL of 150mg/mL Testosterone Propionate .
This is also why water based suspensions (Testosterone base/no ester, Winstrol ) hurt the most, water is very easily absorbed in the body
The solvents used can cause pain in 2 ways. Benzyl alcohol (BA) is used at 1%-2% as a preservative and antiseptic. If the alcohol content is too high the gear will burn. Pain in the first 24 hours is usually caused by heavy solvents, pain in the next few hours is usually cause by crystalization. Another way is a bad recipe. if someone used 2% BA, and the rest of the solution oil, the mg/mL would have to be low due to oil's weak ability to hold crystals. On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful.
If you inject too quickly it can tear tissue.
If your muscle is new to the hormone , it will absorb the hormone very slowly, but absorb the oil/solvent very quickly. This will cause more crystalization and pain. As your muscles recognize the hormones, they will be absorbed more quickly, thus less pain. The deeper you inject into the center of a muscle group, the better.
How do I prevent pain before I inject?
Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate , and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate - pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate . This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.
Before you shoot, it can help to warm your gear some (especially suspensions). You could put the vial in the bathroom sink and let hot water run over the vial for 2 minutes, and shake well. This will lower the oils viscosity also making it easier it pull into the syringe.
Inject slowly, take 30 seconds per mL. Use a 25g pin to inject so it forces you to move slowly.
If none of these work you could have dirty gear. Its possible there could be particles (although bacteriostatic) in the gear that are not causing infection, but still cause in site infection that made it through a filter.
How do I deal with pain once I have it?
The worst thing you can do is ice it. Cold will help the crystals fall out of solution/suspension .
Its okay to take some ibuprofin to decrease the swelling, and help with pain.
Also being in a hot tub, or jacuzzi, or warm bubble bath will help melt the crystals down. Using a heating pad can help also.
12-05-2011, 12:39 PM
Ive made gear with 50/50 EO/GSO so I'm sure you could dilute it at least that far without problems. EO is a great solvent and holds higher concentrations well so that might help some. Anytime you get a concentration that high its going to cause pain because its doing exactly what you touched on earlier. Once it gets into your body the solvents get absorbed and it begins leaving the hormone behind faster than your body can absorb it. The only way you are going to get around it is to dilute it as much as you can. Personally I would cut it 50/50 with EO and plan on pinning twice as often.
12-05-2011, 01:05 PM
Yep. I've tried all the above such as heating pads, hot tubs, etc... it does help, but only while the heat is on. Doesn't really reduce the time that I'm in pain.
What explains the allergic reaction? When I use it straight or cut with GSO it gives me hives and itchiness about 5 days after at around the same time the pain subsides. What's with that?
I'm hoping this EO will work... I used 30% EO of the whole volume of the pin. Only a slight pain today, but like I said, and was confirmed in an above post... the crashing happens 2 days after. I hope this stuff holds.
12-05-2011, 01:17 PM
My quads feel like somebody beat me with a lead pipe. Extremely tender. Nobody said short esters were painless. Suffer through 30 minutes on the elliptical and it should alleviate the pain to a bearable level. The days I do no cardio after injects, I regret. If somebody so much as touches my leg I'll go into a spasm of pain. When I do the cardio, the pain is nearly non existent. Just try it and see. A little cardio never hurt anyone.
12-05-2011, 01:33 PM
So... all bs aside on the tren issue, how bad are the sides REALLY? One big issue for me is the lack of motivation for sex. Can this be turned around with a small amount of test? How bad is the andro-brain? Do you feel like you're going to snap? That would be a huuuuge change for me. I'm always calm and cool and collected and never blow my top... unless i'm driving. And how bad is the acne in comparison to test?
12-05-2011, 01:48 PM
As far as the tren goes, sides are different for everyone. I've never been prone to acne so that's no problem for me. I'm also on 200mg a week of cypionate, and it's plenty for me to think about sex every second of the day. The tren suppresses the occasional inappropriate test boner, which is fine with me. Do I feel the need to hump something every other minute? No. do I still have the drive to sex my wife up every chance I get? Absolutely! As far as andro-brain goes, I feel a little shorter fused when having marital arguments, but as far as day to day things go its easily controllable, and almost non existent. There is just something about women that frustrate me i guess. I don't think you have to run test alongside with tren but when you run test, it will cut down on andro-brain and lack of sex drive. Personally I've never run tren solo, so I don't know how it would effect me. I've never experienced tren cough, but I can taste it and smell it immediately after every injection. I guess all those years of epic bong rips acclimated my lungs to suppress coughing, who knows.
12-09-2011, 04:40 PM
Ethyl Oleate definitely fixed it. I added 30% of the total volume and I get very little pip. It's crazy how good I feel now that I don't have so much pain. Invincible mode activated.
Still get itchy, though... Must be slightly allergic to something in it.
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