AAS vs. PH's, should I get the real deal if I can? - AnabolicMinds.com

AAS vs. PH's, should I get the real deal if I can?

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    AAS vs. PH's, should I get the real deal if I can?


    I hope this isnt' out of place by posting this here, but considering you guys are the guys who actually use the real deal I wanted to get your opinions. I have ran one PH cycle, and was going to run a 2nd one soon, but after talking with a friend I've been informed he has a hook up to the real stuff, so, I'm asking, are AAS really that much better than PH's?

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    Yes, AAS are much better, safer and more effective than PH's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy1982 View Post
    Yes, AAS are much better, safer and more effective than PH's.
    Yes, this right here. Unless you are talking about injectible tren, there is no PH that is going to safer than an injectible AAS. For most just a cycle of test the first round can illicit 15-30 pounds of quality mass depending on how you eat and your PCT.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    you can gain 15-20lbs of mass for a first cycle with pretty much any cycle you use if you know what you are doing.even hdrol has put this on first timers ran for 6 weeks. shutdown, sides will be less than from a 12 week cycle of test, and pct will be easier as well.

    with that said, adding testosterone to any cycle no matter what it is, will be better.

    the quicker you can get in and out, the better. you can get similar, if not more gains from an 8 week cycle of test/anavar than from a 20 week cycle of test e at 600mg.

    many experts on the subject agree going past 8 weeks on supraphysiological dosages only increases hpta supression, and risk of negative side effects, with minimal if any gains from the extra time spent on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    the quicker you can get in and out, the better. you can get similar, if not more gains from an 8 week cycle of test/anavar than from a 20 week cycle of test e at 600mg.
    This is circumstantial based on the test you use. If you are using prop you will be shut down by the second week. If you are using a slow ester it will take up to 4 weeks to be completely shut down. Also I disagree with your comparison of an 8 weeks test/var cycle producing more gains than a 20 week cycle at 600mg but you are entitled to your opinion.
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    yea, too bad it isn't my opinion but data from a study comparing gains made from the two.

    8 weeks of 20mg var/low dosed test had users gain 8kg's (17lbs).

    studies show users injecting 600mg of test e for 20 weeks on average gain 17lbs or 8kg's

    superdrol=aas, hdrol=aas, anavar=aas, dianabol=aas, m1t=aas, these are all aas.

    the difference should be seen as methylated vs non methylated, as that is the difference that actually matters.

    if test is king, then test+methylated androgen is w/e is above that.


    with the theory that injectables are better, would those who believe this think 10lbs made from test a from a 6 week cycle would be different than 10lbs made from test e from a 12 week cycle?

    i mean, i dont see how it's different than the 10lbs of lean mass made from an 6 week hdrol cycle most see.
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    I'm just basing my opinion off of my experiences which is the only study I refer information from.
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    yea, thats accurate. guess you've never heard of the placebo effect.
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    I'm not a keyboard warrior here to do battle. Just giving my opinion from my personal experiences. Just disagreeing, not trying to get into a dick size contest. As I said before, you're entitled to your opinion.
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    think you are getting a little too hormonal. sorry if my bluntness is bothering you.
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    It's not bothering me, it's fine. I just didn't realize that any opinion different than yours was incorrect. After all you are a rep so you must know everything about anabolics. Thanks for your help, I'll be sure to not develop my own opinions again.
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    opinions and data based facts are two different things. it isn't my opinion about how androgens work in the body and results from supraphysiological steroids, it is studied, data based information. i think that is where you are getting confused.
    just like "the placebo effect" is also a data based proven fact. give people something they belive it to be, like say a steroid, even though it is a sugar pill, and they will believe they see a difference.
    if you have been told injectable cycles are better, and believe it, then run an injectable cycle, it is very logical to assertain you will see in your mind better results, even if it really isn't the case.
    but who is to tell you different? most likely no one will be able to, because you truly believe such. is it a bad thing or wrong? well, if in the end you are happier, work out harder, and pleased with your results, then no, it is a good thing.
    but if you are truly looking to maximize effects, comming at it from a data based approach may provide better results, esp if you want to maximize those results.
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    OK have no idea reguarding PH. Can tell U AAS is real works and is safe. If U have acess to a DR. talk to him. If not PM me regarding reasonable use of AAS. Not meaning to flame anyone! Reasonable is what I have experienced over the last twenty five years' No I don,t triple stack, cut, bulk whatever. If U want to know about Test and its effects PM. Good Luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    yea, too bad it isn't my opinion but data from a study comparing gains made from the two.

    8 weeks of 20mg var/low dosed test had users gain 8kg's (17lbs).

    studies show users injecting 600mg of test e for 20 weeks on average gain 17lbs or 8kg's

    superdrol=aas, hdrol=aas, anavar=aas, dianabol=aas, m1t=aas, these are all aas.

    the difference should be seen as methylated vs non methylated, as that is the difference that actually matters.

    if test is king, then test+methylated androgen is w/e is above that.


    with the theory that injectables are better, would those who believe this think 10lbs made from test a from a 6 week cycle would be different than 10lbs made from test e from a 12 week cycle?

    i mean, i dont see how it's different than the 10lbs of lean mass made from an 6 week hdrol cycle most see.
    I normally browse through here once a month, and don't respond to the bs on this forum anymore bc that is all it has become.

    I love how a guy who is 5'9'' 175, is giving out advice on how to run "cycles"...laughable. What personal experience do you have with ANY of this? At 5'9'' I would imagine little to none. These "studies" you are referring...PLEASE reference them. I am LOL'ing especially the guys running 20mg of var (a completely irrelevant dose) and "low" dose test...gaining 17lbs. Neither of those doses with the var or the test are going to cause any water retention, so on "average" these "studies" show guys are gaining 17lbs in 8 weeks. Donut/McD's diet? Nice "study". That's ****ing hilarious. You should keep your advice in a forum where you actually have a clue what you are talking about, and have actually experienced the things you are talking about rather than hearing from someone who told someone.

    At least Troy is speaking from experience...
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    ask, and ye shall recieve..

    Low dose of testosterone plus a couple of oxandrolone tabs just as effective as a megadose of testosterone


    If you get men to train for 20 weeks and inject them with 600 mg testosterone enanthate, they’ll gain 8 kg extra fat free mass, according to some studies. But it’s possible to make the same gains with less, doctors at the University of California discovered. You can achieve almost the same results with a light course of oxandrolone and testosterone enanthate, and you only have to take them for 8 weeks.





    In 1999 the researchers published the results of a trial in the prestigious JAMA. It was a reaction to studies in which researchers had given HIV-infected men heavy doses, such as 600 mg nandrolone decanoate per week. The HIV subjects also did weight training (IN THAT STUDY, THE DECA/WEIGHT TRAINING GROUP GAINED A LITTLE OVER 5KG http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/84/4/1268.abstract). The researchers don’t think high doses are necessary. So they decided to do a trial using 22 HIV patients, giving some 20 mg oxandrolone daily, and all a weekly 100 mg injection of testosterone enanthate. The course lasted 8 weeks.





    The men did 1 hour of weight training 3 times a week. Under guidance from a trainer they did 6 basic exercises for the main upper body muscle groups and 3 exercises for the lower body. They used weights that were 80 percent of the weight at which they could just manage 1 rep [1RM].


    Eleven of the men were given a weekly injection of 100 mg testosterone enanthate and took a placebo. The other eleven men were given 20 mg oxandrolone each day.


    The figure below shows that the oxandrolone group had gained almost 8 kg fat free mass after 8 weeks. (the anavar + test group gained 4kg more than the just test group)












    The men in the oxandrolone group also gained strength faster than the other men. The gain in maximal weight for the bench press and the leg press was 10 and 20 kg respectively for the placebo group. For the men in the oxandrolone group the figures were 20 and 30 kg.


    The men in the oxandrolone group also lost a few ounces more fat than the men in the placebo group.









    So it’s not necessary to do a 20-week course of 600 mg to gain 8 kg fat free mass, the researchers conclude. It’s possible to achieve the same results with lower doses.


    But even the mild oxandrolone-testosterone course was not without side effects. In the oxandrolone group, 1 patient had to stop when his liver started acting strangely. Analysis of blood samples also indicated that the addition of oxandrolone to the modest testosterone course reduced the body’s endogenous testosterone production even further. The oxandrolone group’s LH and FSH production also decreased by more the researchers discovered. FSH and LH are hormones that stimulate the testes to produce testosterone.










    Some of the men were also taking retro-viral medicines, but these did not influence the effects of the steroids.


    "The combination of resistance exercise with a moderately supraphysiologic androgen regimen that included oxandrolone resulted in significantly greater increases in lean tissue and muscle strength than resistance exercise with physiologic testosterone replacement alone in eugonadal HIV-infected men with prior weight loss", the researchers conclude. "The use of protease inhibitor therapy did not affect the lean tissue response".
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    now, on the other side, if you run just test, it is relatively safer than other compounds.. (oh yea, this is the study men injected 600mg of test e for 20 weeks, lifted, and gained about 8kg of mass)

    Higher testosterone doses: more effect on muscle mass and few side effects


    Young men who do power training build up more muscle the more testosterone enanthate [structural formula shown below] they inject. The higher the dose, the more effect on muscle mass and power that a course of testosterone has. American researchers reported this eight years ago in the American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology and Metabolism. The side-effects of higher doses of testosterone are not too bad. At least, as long as you're not too concerned about HDL.



    The researchers used the GnRH-agonist Decapeptyl to deactivate testosterone production in sixty healthy men aged between 18 and 35 ‘with prior weight-lifting experience. Then they gave the men a twenty-week course of testosterone enanthate injections. The men got a weekly dose of 25, 50, 125, 300 or 600 mg testosterone. A 25 mg dose is just enough to keep men’s sexual functioning intact. The highest dose of testosterone that men can inject weekly without incurring acute medical problems is 600 mg, at least according to published studies. Not everyone in the steroids world agrees with this figure.


    The men kept a diary of their sexual activities, but there was no sign of any effects. It made no difference whether the men injected 25 or 600 mg. The graph below shows the relative changes.













    The higher the testosterone dose, the more fat-free mass the men developed. And the number of kilograms they could shift with the leg-press increased, the more testosterone they injected. You wonder what would have happened if the men had had a 1200 mg shot of testosterone enanthate.










    The fat free mass consists only partly of muscle mass. But the muscle mass also increased with higher testosterone doses.










    Researchers are most concerned about the relationship between anabolic hormones and cancer. When it comes to androgen hormones, researchers are particularly worried about the effects on the prostate. A marker of prostate condition is the ‘prostate cancer protein’ PSA. The more of this there is in the blood, the worse the state of the prostate is. But the men who injected more testosterone did not have a higher PSA level.










    The higher doses of testosterone made the blood a little thicker, but nothing for the men to be concerned about. [The effect is more serious in older men - Ed.]


    More of a problem is the effect of higher doses of testosterone on the ‘good’ HDL cholesterol.










    The researchers conclude that testosterone isn’t a hundred percent safe. That’s why they argue for the development of SARMs in their conclusion. "Selective androgen receptor modulators that preferentially augment muscle mass and strength, but only minimally affect prostate and cardiovascular risk factors, are desirable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    I normally browse through here once a month, and don't respond to the bs on this forum anymore bc that is all it has become.

    I love how a guy who is 5'9'' 175, is giving out advice on how to run "cycles"...laughable. What personal experience do you have with ANY of this? At 5'9'' I would imagine little to none. These "studies" you are referring...PLEASE reference them. I am LOL'ing especially the guys running 20mg of var (a completely irrelevant dose) and "low" dose test...gaining 17lbs. Neither of those doses with the var or the test are going to cause any water retention, so on "average" these "studies" show guys are gaining 17lbs in 8 weeks. Donut/McD's diet? Nice "study". That's ****ing hilarious. You should keep your advice in a forum where you actually have a clue what you are talking about, and have actually experienced the things you are talking about rather than hearing from someone who told someone.

    At least Troy is speaking from experience...
    I gues you've probably never heard of Dan Duchaine, or if you have, then you've never seen what he looked like.

    But in case you dont know, he wrote some books you may of heard of, "Underground Steroid Handbook for Men and Women" and "Underground Body Opus: Militant Weight Loss and Recomposition"



    yea, you're probably right, size has everything to do with intelligence and knowledge, i mean, who ever read any thing that skinny guy said right? cause you obviously being so big and tall, has gotta mean you know what your talking about and has nothing to do with using what your mommy and daddy gave you.
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    What dose was the HIV and how long did they run it.
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    i believe they were running a viral dose, and i believe it is ongoing, possibly indeffinate.
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    Subbd for entertainment purposes.
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    I'm pretty sure the original author of this thread is just as confused on taking ph or injectable as he was prior to posting , but I'm enjoying the battle....so, wage on my friends!
    You are born small and weak, you die small and weak...How you look in-between is entirely up to you...
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    Whooo ooooo, just having fun doesn't really matter to me hahaha!
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    My point wasn't if you read that somewhere and could you copy and paste it. My point was that you have never run either of the compounds listed or you wouldn't say what you said. That is the whole problem, a bunch of skinny guys running around this forum with no experience whatsoever - just studies on paper and bro-knowledge...people like you, giving out advice on steroids. I can absolutely promise you that you will not find one person who gained that many lbs of muscle on 300-400mg of test and 20mg of var. If you actually had any real world experience in this, you would know how laughable that is. You would be running a little over the amt of test your body already naturally produces (depending on the person) and a dosage of var that is on the low end of recommendation for women.

    Not saying you aren't a smart guy and a good reader. And probably know CEL's products really well. But you should let people who actually have experience with the substances in question be giving out the advice, or at least qualify yours with "well, I read (here) that they said this".
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    well, man, im suprised you know so much about me, you are right, i have never injected testosterone enanthate.

    I have ran anavar though in the past. I have also ran 1 gram of 4-androstenediol e/d a couple of times.

    now just being moderate, because 4-androstenediol doesn't need to convert to interact with the androgen receptor, but, even if you only had a low 10 percent of that direct precursor to testosterone convert, that would amount to 700mg of straight testosterone per week.

    okay, lets be even more modest, lets say 5 percent converted, that would give 350mg of straight testosterone per week.

    and this would be just the testosterone, nothing to do with the weaker binding diol compound that didn't convert.

    most like to quote the in vivo studies done on 4-androstenediol having a 15% conversion rate, but i dont like to look at that, cause that would mean i had 1,050mg of straight testosterone with no ester running in my system each weak.

    and dont even want to think if i had better conversion.

    I had always thought test is test, but maybe im wrong, and there are different kinds of non estered testosterone.

    now, maybe some day when im older, and much more wiser, i will inject a long ester testosterone, and it will be way better than testosterone with no ester. i dont know, so I can give the benifit of the doubt on that experience.

    but the point of my argument is gains. stop looking at orals which are more powerful than the derivatives they are based from (test, dht, nor test).

    i've yet been able to have someone explain to me how someone who gains the same amount of weight, but runs different cycles, say, a 6 week cycle of test suspension, the other runs a 10 week cycle of test e, if both gained 15lbs, why is the longer cycle's weight different? both are actually on cycle for about the same amount of time.

    but like you said, i have no experience with large amounts of injectables, only steroids that can pass as vitamins or supplements, meaning orals. and the non esterfied testosterone made from the hormone 4-androstenediol is obviously different than the non esterfied testosterone you inject (which i hope you can help me to understand the differences in testosterones)

    me being a rep has only a minor amount to do with my knowledge on aas, as i didn't become a rep for cel until after we stopped producing those famous compounds.

    but it does have to do with other companies paying me with cash for my info on aas, which is nice, cause i dont ask anyone for it, they come to me. must be cause im so cool though, since i dont know squat about all the various compounds i've tried for myself.

    ( If I am completely wrong about the subject of testosterone, I appologize, but im just not seeing the experts in the field of aas who have used injectable testosterone, disagreeing with the studies, or touting the same things big guys who get a little bigger using steroids are saying)

    but im done, and will have to agree that we disagree. this is pointless, others aren't going to provide data based facts, just anecdotal, and im just going to keep asking for that like an ignorant bastard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    well, man, im suprised you know so much about me, you are right, i have never injected testosterone enanthate.

    I have ran anavar though in the past. I have also ran 1 gram of 4-androstenediol e/d a couple of times.

    now just being moderate, because 4-androstenediol doesn't need to convert to interact with the androgen receptor, but, even if you only had a low 10 percent of that direct precursor to testosterone convert, that would amount to 700mg of straight testosterone per week.

    okay, lets be even more modest, lets say 5 percent converted, that would give 350mg of straight testosterone per week.

    and this would be just the testosterone, nothing to do with the weaker binding diol compound that didn't convert.

    most like to quote the in vivo studies done on 4-androstenediol having a 15% conversion rate, but i dont like to look at that, cause that would mean i had 1,050mg of straight testosterone with no ester running in my system each weak.

    and dont even want to think if i had better conversion.

    I had always thought test is test, but maybe im wrong, and there are different kinds of non estered testosterone.
    The oral activity of 4-AD is about 10% and about a 10% conversion rate. 1000mg x 10% x 10% = 10mg/d x 7 = 70mg/week testosterone
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    I normally browse through here once a month, and don't respond to the bs on this forum anymore bc that is all it has become.

    I love how a guy who is 5'9'' 175, is giving out advice on how to run "cycles"...laughable. What personal experience do you have with ANY of this? At 5'9'' I would imagine little to none. These "studies" you are referring...PLEASE reference them. I am LOL'ing especially the guys running 20mg of var (a completely irrelevant dose) and "low" dose test...gaining 17lbs. Neither of those doses with the var or the test are going to cause any water retention, so on "average" these "studies" show guys are gaining 17lbs in 8 weeks. Donut/McD's diet? Nice "study". That's ****ing hilarious. You should keep your advice in a forum where you actually have a clue what you are talking about, and have actually experienced the things you are talking about rather than hearing from someone who told someone.

    At least Troy is speaking from experience...
    Thank you sir! I'm done arguing about this topic with this guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pillsRgood View Post
    I'm pretty sure the original author of this thread is just as confused on taking ph or injectable as he was prior to posting , but I'm enjoying the battle....so, wage on my friends!
    I'm confused, but interested and amused at the arguing in my thread lol
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    Bottom line is that there are many factors when considering injectable vs ph's... Personally I believe in injectable over ph's reason for it is that the supplement industry isn't regulated very well at all. While taking Sd, m1t, 4ad ect does yield great gains, it is unknown what exactly your consuming.. the supp companies can put dog **** as a filler in those pills and just call it proprietary blend... At least with injectable test, from a trusted source, you know what your getting.... Just my opinion, battle on my friends...
    You are born small and weak, you die small and weak...How you look in-between is entirely up to you...
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    okay, okay, i cant argue the point since i havn't ever injected testosterone, just ran all kinds or oral aas & pro hormones. But i will, and then i'll be back!
    this should give you time to find data supporting your argument that injectable steroids produce better gains then an oral aas, when both are ran at typical dosages for the same amount of time.
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    Damn, looks like I'm tardy to the party
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy1982 View Post
    Thank you sir! I'm done arguing about this topic with this guy.
    You'll learn, pretty much the reason I only come here 2x a month. Usually when I'm bored. No longer useful for information but great for laughs
    To get un-naturally big, you gotta do un-natural things
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    Quote Originally Posted by pillsRgood View Post
    Bottom line is that there are many factors when considering injectable vs ph's... Personally I believe in injectable over ph's reason for it is that the supplement industry isn't regulated very well at all. While taking Sd, m1t, 4ad ect does yield great gains, it is unknown what exactly your consuming.. the supp companies can put dog **** as a filler in those pills and just call it proprietary blend... At least with injectable test, from a trusted source, you know what your getting.... Just my opinion, battle on my friends...
    i agree with this, while I can't talk about the gains as I have never ran real AAS, I do agree that they have to be much safer, for the reasons you gave, and that PH's are still very new products, totally untested and the people who use them are more or less the lab rats for them, while AAS has been around for years and is well documented in long terms sides and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    okay, okay, i cant argue the point since i havn't ever injected testosterone, just ran all kinds or oral aas & pro hormones. But i will, and then i'll be back!
    this should give you time to find data supporting your argument that injectable steroids produce better gains then an oral aas, when both are ran at typical dosages for the same amount of time.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archiv...106747001.html
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    Good post David, that was quite informative if you read the whole thread.
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    Is that the sound of crickets I hear in this thread?

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    Careful, when the broscience stops and the facts show up, people run away fast, lol!
    If my direct and cynical approach bothers you, just ignore it. I'm just saying what you need to hear ;).
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    im not sure what the point of that link to that thread was? there is no new info in there, only thing missing is that after 90min post oral administration, 100mg of 4-androstenediol boost testosterone levels a little over 50%.

    who knows what 200mg's ever 3-4 hrs will do, if only 100mg goes a little higher than 50%

    no one can know what % will convert. that is why i posted so many different percentages, also why I posted the "in vivo study" which is where people get the 15% all the time.


    but i wanted to just leave it alone with my last post, and not argue with your post on the oral availability and percentage conversion of 4-androstenediol, which is made up.
    no one knows what it is, not even the man who has the patent for it, patrick arnold, i know, i asked him.

    5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, who knows, it is anyones guess what will make it to be converted, and how much converts.

    what is known is it converts at a high rate, becomes test and w/e test metabolites form in the body.

    800 plus mg is a high dosage to see dramatic results. I have seen high dosages like 800 plus mg's compared to injectable test, but like i said before, i havn't injected test yet, so all the data on the subject means nothing, it's the anecdotal stuff that matters to you guys.

    dunn, have you ran 4-androstenediol at a gram or more e/d before?
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    Quote Originally Posted by oufinny View Post
    Careful, when the broscience stops and the facts show up, people run away fast, lol!
    what bro science? you mean the stuff everyone else is pushing? I seem to be the only one showing data in this thread.

    want to read the actual data on 4-androstenediol? here

    http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&...page&q&f=false
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    my thread has blown up into a entertaining yet educating and intelligent argument.
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    Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    Now when taken orally you have low bioavailablity just like you have low bioavailability with oral testosterone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
    Talking about its % of conversion doesnt really matter much when orally its the least effecient way to use it.
    I'll get some more.
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