Bill Roberts 2 on 4 off

[Grahamefc]

Hi,

I've been doing alot of reading and research lately into shorter steroid cycles, I posted a few weeks ago into using long esterified steroids in shorter cycles and got some really interesting feedback, but have decided that its not for me, as if I can help it I'd like to avoid pinning every day.

Now I've come across Bill Roberts 2 on 4 off theory.

I was planning on trying this out and guinea pigging myself to see how effective this is.

I've done two previous steroid cycles both which lasted 12 weeks, and both took me an age to recover from, even with the use of HCG. My first cycle was 500mg Test E for 12 weeks, my second cycle was the same only with the addition of 400mg Deca for 10 weeks. I got good gains while on cycle but did lose a fair bit when coming off, and my sex drive was way down for a good while.

Bill's theory means that recovery happens alot quicker, because in theory the pituatary shouldn't be shutdown after only two weeks use. This really appeals to me! If recovery is quicker then gains are more maintanable, plus I keep my nuts and sex drive!

Now I know gains won't be huge, I'm not looking for monster gains, but I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather keep alot of a 10-14lb net gain (over 4 of these such cycles, which is 8 weeks cycling) than only keep a small percentage of a 20lb gain (as in one straight 8 week cycle)

From other boards and information I have gathered I hear alot of people say that 4 on 4 off is a better way to go, but I feel that time on equalling time off is slighlty too aggressive, I want recovery to be a synch and for that reason I'd like to try 4 of these 2 on 4 off cycles, plus 4 on 4 off is not what Bill Roberts case study involved or what his theory advocates. (For those of you who haven't seen the case study it was very successful! The guy made great gains and his bloodwork was fine.)

I have enough gear to run at least four of these cycles back to back. If I can get a net return of 10 -14 lbs from those four cycles without huge HPTA surpression I'd be ecstatic.

However, I'd really like some help in putting my first two week run together. (Aswell as the next three when the time comes!)

The drugs I have available to me are as follows :-

Test Prop 100mg/ml
Tren Acetate 76mg/ml and I also have Tren Acetate 100mg/ml
Dianabol 10mg tabs

All of my previous cycles have been with longer acting steroids, so I'm not used to pinning every day and I'd like to avoid this if possible. I've also never used Trenbolone before and the dreaded "Tren cough" scares the sh!t out of me! So if I can help it I'd like to leave the trenbolone for the second or third two week run.

With that in mind, I'd come up with this :-

Day 1 - frontload with 400mg Test Prop, Then 200mg Test Prop EOD, along with 40mg dianabol ED.

Ancillaries I'd run Adex .5 ED. PCT would be 2 weeks Tamoxifen 20mg ED.

I'd then have 2 weeks off completely, then start my 2nd 2 week run.

Given Bill Roberts theory, do you think this would be a good first run? Do you think it would be more beneficial to run the prop ED at 100mg, seen as I'm only on for 2 weeks? I really don't want to inject ED unless its vital! Do you think I need the tren in there from the start because of the short amount of time "on"? Again I'd like to try and avoid this.

I know there's nay sayers out there who are against the idea of 2 on 4 off, but I'd like to try it. If anybody has opinions on how I could improve it (providing you know what Bill's theory is!) or if anybody has any first hand experience please chime in and let me know. I'm really interested in seeing what shutdown and recovery is like, and whether the smaller gains will be easier maintained!

If your just going to tell me how rubbish it will be without ever having tried it yourself, or your going to tell me I won't gain as much in two weeks as I would in twelve (which is blatantly obvious!) then please don't bother.

I'll compare my gains after the four runs (with your guys help!) to the gains I made on my two previous 12 weeks straight cycles, which was about 10lbs kept from each.

 

[Libertarian]

I've posted quite a bit about the 2 on/2-4 off protocol popularized by Bill Roberts. I don't say much about it anymore, though. Too many people who have not tried it, researched it, or even understand the concept like to criticize it based on nonsense and it makes objective discussions almost impossible on this forum. You should probably go to the T-Nation steroid forum, there are lots of people there who have ran the protocol with excellent results.

I'm in the middle of a series right now. The idea, I think, is to take advantage of the fact that you can run much higher dosages given the short length of the cycle. Not that you won't experience any side effects at all, but they probably won't have time to get very bad within that short duration. When I run high doses of Test Prop and Tren Ace, the only side I've had is minor flu symptoms the first couple days or so as the compounds first kick in. Then I'm fine.

During the "off" weeks I still make gains. The gains don't really start tapering down until the 2nd "off" week for me. Also, when in the "off" phase, I feel fine. Compare that to my last 10 week cycle, PCT was awful - I had a dead libido, depression, etc for a few weeks. Such sides have been almost non-existent with the 2-on/2-off.

I would suggest using "Roid Calculator" to estimate your blood levels for injectables. You want to make sure that you don't have suppressive levels in your system anymore once the 2-week "on" period is over. See here for more info and links: http://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/2week_cycle_layout

Also, definitely frontload any short esters. I usually double the dose at least on my first injection, and start feeling "on" around the third day of the cycle.

 

[Grahamefc]

Thanks Libertarian, thats an awesome link you provided there, really helpful.

What do you think of me using the prop 200mg EOD as opposed to 100mg ED? Would this be just as effective?

Also, do you find you've recovered after only two weeks off? Bill advises 4 weeks off, do you in YOUR experience think 4 weeks is too long? Do you think recovery can happen sooner than 4 weeks?

 

[Libertarian]

Actually, Bill Roberts doesn't necessarily recommend 4 weeks off. Here's how he explained it:

I generally explain it in terms of weeks on per year, and the following subjective and unprovable appraisal that being on 1/3 of the time is conservative but can be quite effective; being on half the time is pushing it a little more but is still exercising some caution and isn't extreme; and being on 2/3 or more is being quite aggressive and doesn't necessarily give much more results by the end of the year.

He's even said that he has run some 2-on/1-off cycles successfully. I personally wouldn't run 2-on/1-off, but it's been done. If you do it, make sure you give yourself a break soon after to make sure you stay within the 1/3-1/2 of the year "on" time. As for as how fast recovery takes place, Bill Roberts has said that you should pretty much be fully recovered after the first week off and based on my experience I wouldn't doubt that a bit.

I definitely "feel" recovered after those two weeks off. Haven't had any bloodwork done yet, but like I said, when recovering from a longer cycle it is very obvious that you are shutdown and it sucks. With the 2-weekers this isn't an issue. I only "feel" somewhat shutdown for the first 3 days or so into the "off" weeks, then I'm fine again. And the symptoms are very, very minor.

With Prop, you probably wouldn't notice a huge difference injecting EOD vs ED. With Acetate, I would say definitely everyday. I feel very strongly that the half life of compounds like Tren Ace is much shorter than most believe (around 1 day as opposed to 2-4 like some people say).

 

[Grahamefc]

Again, really helpful. Thanks.

What are your experiences on the whole with Tren Ace? I'm itching to use the stuff, I've just heard the sides can be really harsh.

I'll stick with a frontoad of prop 400mg on day one, then 200mg EOD for my first cycle, but eventually I'll bite the bullet and throw some Tren in there.

 

[Libertarian]

Again, really helpful. Thanks.

What are your experiences on the whole with Tren Ace? I'm itching to use the stuff, I've just heard the sides can be really harsh.

I'll stick with a frontoad of prop 400mg on day one, then 200mg EOD for my first cycle, but eventually I'll bite the bullet and throw some Tren in there.

Based on my experience with Tren Ace is I'd say the sides are over-hyped. I've ran it as high as 100mg/day without any noticeable sides other than waking up sweaty occasionally. No "extreme aggression", no insomnia, nothing. In fact, I felt awesome while on it. Again, this could be because of the short cycle duration. Another speculation I have is that the sides from Tren are more minor when ran with only a low dose of Test or Dianabol. Common advice is "You gotta run Test way higher than Tren, bro!" but that doesn't make any sense. All you really need is enough to provide a little estrogen, and that can be done with 100-200mg/week of Test. Also, it seems that when estrogen is low, Tren has an amazing re-comping effect. On my last 2-weeker, I ate like a horse, but still leaned out.

To avoid "Tren cough", just inject slowly. I haven't gotten it yet and I inject REALLY slow. I almost got it once as I was injecting, I felt it in my throat, but I just paused injecting for a moment and then continued very slow and nothing happened.

On my next 2-weeker, I will be running a very high dose of Test along with 100mg/day of Tren to see if that makes a difference with sides.

 

[Libertarian]

Also, you might find this interesting. It's Bill Roberts explaining what he thinks causes the continued gains in the "off" weeks:

I expect that strength increases off-cycle are due to biological effects often being delayed relative to receptor activation. For example, suppose that under the influence of high androgen levels, a satellite cell fuses with a mature muscle cell, thus increasing its number of nuclei. This will result in ongoing higher capacity for protein synthesis, but the muscle wouldn't have the full benefit or anything like it on the first day of this occurring. It might take quite a while.

It also may take the body time to learn to use the increased capacity of the muscle for strength. Even though it might be the case that the same nerve impulses will now produce a more forceful contraction, initially one might not have the same nerve impulses activating the muscle, as protective mechanisms may cause the higher weight to seem heavier than can be lifted.

My experience and that of anyone I've asked what they thought on it is that as one gets stronger, it is not that weights feel say half as heavy on getting twice as strong. No, a much heavier weight still feels much heavier: it's just that now you can lift it despite it feeling much heavier. But I would suppose that if somehow, magically, that example doubling of strength happened overnight, for quite some time your body would not let you do it as it felt impossibly heavy.

The same thing might be the case, though of course at much smaller percentages, with the increased capacity for strength generated in the "on" weeks. Perhaps not everything that is in fact there at that point is yet utilizable, but in the following weeks the body learns to employ it.

 

[Grahamefc]

Yeah, I've seen that info before. Your posts have been really helpful, cheers.

I've decided what I'm going to do is :-

Day 1 - 400mg test prop, get the levels right up there.
Day 2 -11 100mg test prop ED (everyday injections are gonna be a pain, but it just seems the best way, and I have to get used to them if I want to use the Tren Ace in the future.)

I'll stop injecting at day 11 so that androgen levels drop significantly enough for me to start recovering when the 14 days are up.

According to the roid calculator my active test levels will be around 100mgs ED for the 11 days. Day 12 will be around 70mg, Day 13 around 50mg, and Day 14 around 40mg, still high enough to exert anabolic activity. All 14 days should be enough for a good 4-5lb, combined with good diet and training (these two things are a given for me, on gear or not!)

They'll then taper off and active test levels will be around 25mgs by day 15 which is the start of PCT, they'll continue dropping to tiny amounts from here. This should be low enough so that combined with an aggressive 14 day PCT recovery should be quick.

I'll then start again, and do exactly the same cycle. That will mean I'll have been "cycling" for a month. I'll see what my gains are like after these 2 cycles, if I think I could still make gains on Test Prop alone I'll stick with it for the third run, if not I'll throw some Tren Ace in there.

I'll do 4 runs all told then have 8 weeks off. Hopefully I'll have made some good gains and will be able to keep them during this 8 week off period. That will be the true test! If I'm happy with the results I can start all over again!

Cheers for the help. I'll be picking your brains again quite alot throughout the next couple of months no doubt!

 

[Grahamefc]

Just a side question here.

If you click the "view active" box on the roid calculator, this tells you how much of the steroid is active on that day, right?

I took it as this and is what I've based my cycles numbers on.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

I'm in the middle of a series right now. The idea, I think, is to take advantage of the fact that you can run much higher dosages given the short length of the cycle. Not that you won't experience any side effects at all, but they probably won't have time to get very bad within that short duration. When I run high doses of Test Prop and Tren Ace, the only side I've had is minor flu symptoms the first couple days or so as the compounds first kick in. Then I'm fine.

Blast cycles. I just tried to start a thread about it dealing with orals only but none have responded.

I think this is a great route to go. You see huge gains for 2 weeks, and then your natty test production keeps it up during PCT. PCT can be as simple as a frontloaded nolva dosing for 4 weeks. 120 the first day, 20 from then on. If hcg is used recovery is WAY faster.

The biggest problem with a steroid cycle in regards to keeping gains is the suppression of hpta. If that doesn't happen, it's a gold road.

Edit: I don't see a reason to front load test prop, btw. By the time you inject next your levels will be signifigantly lower. Better to space out a prop run than to bunch it up like that.

Depending on when you inject you probably want to still inject on the 12th day.

 

[Libertarian]

Sounds like you've been doing your research - good for you :thumbsup:

Keep in mind that for most people Propionate is very painful, and Acetate is almost painless. For me, even 50mg (0.5ml) of Prop is pretty painful, but 100mg (1ml) of Ace is almost painless. For this reason I'm using Testosterone Acetate on my next 2-weeker. Also, the shorter half life allows you to run higher dosages a little bit longer and still have low enough levels to begin recovery on Day 15. If you can get a hold of it, you might want to try it.

Just a side question here.

If you click the "view active" box on the roid calculator, this tells you how much of the steroid is active on that day, right?

I took it as this and is what I've based my cycles numbers on.

Yeah, you just click "Calculate" and the far right column is what you're looking at. The one thing I don't like about the Roid Calculator is that the compounds are listed by their brand names. I would much prefer their generic names. For this reason, I just put in my own half-life info. For example, you can see towards the top of the page it lets you put in your own half-life values, well I just go down to the last one, which is Boldenone Undecylenate and put it what I need. Then, you can use the Equipoise column for calculations. So, for Tren Ace, I'd put in a 1 and use that to view the corresponding values. Hope this makes sense.

Edit: I don't see a reason to front load test prop, btw. By the time you inject next your levels will be signifigantly lower. Better to space out a prop run than to bunch it up like that.

Not sure what you mean by that. If you use Roid Calculator, you will see that when frontloading Prop with double the dose or more, you get your levels up almost immediately. On a 6+ week cycle it may not be so important, but with these cycles you want to squeeze as much as you can out of that 14 day window.

I think one of the reasons why a lot of people say Prop takes a week or so to kick in is because they aren't frontloading or dosing high enough. When I frontload, I feel it kick in usually around Day 3.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

I will start a 2 weeker of profina and 30mg d-bol next week, 50 mg test prop and 50 mg tren a ED

 

[ChrisSanderso]

bringing back the dead,lol

 

[gamer2be08]

Interesting! You say you were shutdown pretty bad, im dreading it. Only 1 more week left of my cycle.. My bud went in with me, he got off 3 weeks ago, takes his SERM rarely (idiot), and ****s about 2 chicks a day... Oh well, im subbed!

 

[ChrisSanderso]

Very good read guys

cut and paste from another awsome site.

Background:
I began BBing with a trainer from Germany. In educating me, he related to me that, in his time BBing there, European BBers were relatively without American influence. Common practice called for the use of short halflife ester injectables, the variety of which was very much greater than exists today, combined with mild orals like Anavar and Winstrol and, sometimes, Dbol. Short cycles(2-4 weeks) were also the norm. Most interesting, use of test was very uncommon, and considered a horror. What was commonly used was Parabolan, what we, today, call Trenbolone. Eight week cycles were virtually unheard of, and the desire to pack on 20-40 pounds in such a short time was unthinkable. European BBers took a much more unhurried pace of growth. Young, competitive BBers were very much smaller than those found in the US, today, due to this orderly pace of growth. It was only the very rare, genetically unusual BBer who was big at a young age. Europeans simply had a different outlook and different standards.

Early on, my trainer lamented the situation he found in the US: heavy dependance upon test, long halflife esters used in long cycles, gross overeating, poor estrogen suppression, acceptance of high bodyfat percentages, and excessive lbm development in short timespans. He was horrified at what he envisioned would be the longterm consequences of widespread use of these practices. He was associated with IFBB pros, like Zhur, el Sonbaty, Schlierkamp, and Ruhl, while in Europe. He was well aware of the health complications associated with extreme muscularity. He kept reiterating "BBing is a sport for life".

While still a natural, I began to examine how an entire philosphy of AAS use might be developed, based upon the European experience. By the time it was appropriate for me to begin AAS, years later, I already had a plan. Initially, I quietly used myself as a lab rat. The results became quite visible, and, before too long, questions followed. My trainer asked that we work together, to develop a new way for his athletes to grow. And here we are.....

Characteristics of AAS:
There are two clearly discernable characteristics of interest to BBers. Anabolic: muscle growth/hypertrophy. and Androgenic: strength, aggression, fat burning. Most AAS possess these two characteristics in varying ratios, and in various strengths. For example, Halotestin may be seen to produce a pure androgenic response, but no anabolic response. Deca, on the other hand, will produce anabolism with no significant androgenic response. Test produces roughly a 50 percent anabolic response, and 50 percent androgenic response. Then there is strength of response. Winstrol is a moderate, pure anabolic. Anavar is a moderate, pure androgen. Trenbolone is a very powerful androgen(80 percent of total response), much more powerful than the androgenic characteristics of test. Tren's anabolic characteristic(20 percent of total response), is weaker than that of test. And so on. I have built a complete table of response characteristics of all the AAS components we use.

Site injection and localized growth:
Time and time again, we have seen localized growth response to site injected, esterless and short halflife AAS. I no longer accept that a positive response is anecdotal. It's just too commonplace, in my own work. Consequently, we no longer waste gear in glutes and quads. We identify and then site inject any and all lagging bodyparts, in a rotating injection program. And we have seen some startling responses. In nearly every case, we prefer tren and an esterless AAS, for the most powerful response. There must be weak-, or non-responders, but I have yet to find any. I owe much, in this particular area, to the work of Paul Borreson.

Cycle design:
Cycles are assembled by, first, determining the end response characteristics desired, and assembling components whose AAS characteristics interlock together to produce that end response with a minimum of overlap, over the cycle timespan desired. Consider this cycle: Nandrolone phenylpropionate(EOD), tren(EOD), Winstrol depot((ED), optional Anavar(ED). I've remarked, elsewhere, on the desireability of pairing tren with Winstrol. We require the use of a pure androgen for EVERY cycle, to insure strength, onging muscle definition, density, and post cycle androgenicity, so Anavar is our choice for this cycle. Here, Tren is our primary androgen, and nandrolone our primary anabolic. All of these agents are selected for their lack of water retention. All are either short acting or esterless, so that meets our requirements for site injection. And, yes, we do site inject it all. We begin by frontloading the estered injectables, up to three days before cycle day zero, and add the orals and esterless injectables at cycle day minus one. On cycle day zero, the AAS is already active, with blood levels increasing. We end the injectables and orals, suitably in advance of the end of the cycle, so that, on cycle day 15, the AAS is non-inhibitory, and HTPA recovery begins immediately. Add on 14 days further system recovery, and then a cycle can begin anew. Seven weeks, total. Over a year, this might be acccomplished seven times. When HCG, and an anti-e at suitable dosage, are added to the Clomid, the HTPA may be recovered in only 2 weeks. This shortens the next cycle availability point by one week.

Yes, it's a lot of injections. And the Winstrol hurts.

What might be expected, in the way of results? Bulking, we have seen as much as 10 pounds lbm. Average is five pounds. Over a year, that's 35 pounds. You say, "Hell, I can grow that much in 8 weeks". I say, let's see how many times a year you can accomplish that, and over how many years do you think you will continue to accomplish that? We have this steady, measured growing, going on and on. My guess is that this approach, using only a modest bulking diet, rather than the typical American pig-out bulking diet, can be accomplished for years and years. Due to short cycle length and rational diet design, there is very little fat gain. No pressing need to cut. No need to look like the typical big, smooth BBer, who only looks cut once a year. Our people are lean, defined, and feel healthy, all the time. They only spend two weeks out of seven(or six), cycling. And, since they get normalized quickly, they can train and grow natural, more quickly, because there is none of the weeks and weeks of getting that slow AAS out of their systems. The BBer doing the typical 8 week long acting ester cycle, exists for weeks in a kind of limbo, where the blood levels are not high enough for anabolism, but are still inhibitory, and he must wait all that extra time. My people are off, longer than they are on. Their bodies, free of drugs.

We tend to avoid test. Not completely; just most of the time. What we found is that, anytime you use test, it magnifies the sides of whatever you use with it. Tren, used in rational dosages, is relatively free of sides, and causes fewer overall sides during cycles. We use tren, like the typical BBer uses test. With tren, you get much more response, with much lower dosages, with greater androgenic intensity. Someone once wrote that tren was "the gear of the gods". Indeed, the Europeans brought to BBing AAS, a very great gift. We do use test, but only for very specialized purposes.

We only use one type of eight week bulk cycle. That for Boldenone, which now can only be obtained in a very long halflife ester. We are working with a supplier, and are patiently awaiting him to provide us with our first esterless Boldenone. Testing will begin immediately afterwords, to develop new dosage and protocols, following which, we expect to end our use of nandrolone phenylpropionate. Too many of our clients exhibit some degree of bloat from progesterone aromatization, emerging from the nandrolone. We consider any bloat, from any origin, entirely unacceptable, on health and esthetic grounds.

Bodyfat gain on cycles:
Ever notice how productive of muscle, a cycle usually is, during the first four weeks, and how it slows down and bodyfat accumulates, during the second four weeks? You end up eating more, in the attempt to return things to the former rate. More bodyfat. Finally, the whole process slows down for good. What's going on? The common explanation is that you are getting bigger, so that requires more nutrition. We say no. We say the body realizes what is going on, it exhausts and compensates, and body metabolism and developmental processes simply will no longer support this process. But you continue to eat. And that food has got no place else to go, but be turned into fat, with unproductive lbm production.

Our short cycle designs, whether for 2, 3, or 4 weeks features tren, as a foundation, which is a potent fat burner, due to powerful androgenicity, and will not aromatize to estrogen. And a diet, which is clean, and appropriately sized for rational lbm gain, while minimizing conversion to fat. Later, the body is clean of AAS, and primed for most sensitive and effective response, before the cycle begins. The conversion from nutrition to muscle takes place under optimum conditions, at low bodyfat levels. The AAS ramp-up is swift and full, and the cycle ends before the system can de-sensitize and cause spillover of nutrition to bodyfat.

Estrogen pileup is another cause of bodyfat accumulation, during the typical 8 week, long halflife ester cycle. I suggest that readers visit the AE zine Issue 46, and download the blood concentration calculator from the excellent article on blood concentration of various halflife esters of AAS. Then, plug in your long halflife ester cycle components, and witness the startling blood level concentrations of what you are injecting, late in the cycle. Using the typical paltry anti-e dosages of the typical BBer, is it any wonder that, late in the cycle, estrogen levels build up out of control, and bodyfat follows?

 

[ChrisSanderso]

I know it's long but these UK guys know what there talking about

Estrogen and anti-e:
It is an obsolete belief that estrogen is necessary in any cycle. Indeed, ANY amount of estrogen is BAD in any cycle! There is not one study which supports the notion. But the idea lived on in yet another obsolete notion; that water weight is good weight, in a cycle. That, water introduced into the muscle, causes increased lifts, and by lifting heavier, greater growth is obtained. The experts would purposely advise minimal amounts of anti-estrogen drugs, only to minimize the chance of gyno, but to insure lots of this, supposedly, desireable water weight. On the AE boards, I have witnessed these experts advising NO anti-e's, but only to have some Nolvadex at hand, to deal with gyno, should it appear. Not only do you end up with fake strength and fake muscle size, but, at the same time, the estrogen buildup causes high blood pressure, electrolyte imbalance, and a host of health issues. There is water buildup in the lower back to the extent that posts frequently document BBers in pain, cramps, and difficulty, attempting deads. The champions of this approach say "Oh just take some ibuprofen, and you will be just fine". Try asking your liver what it thinks about that approach. Following the cycle, the water disappears, along with the strength and size it fooled the user into believing was real muscle. This often causes depression, and chases the user into a course of Creatine, to re-introduce that fake size and strength. The muscle character appears smooth, and the density is poor. When the BBer diets down, all this is lost, and the truth is seen. It's no wonder that certain other experts advise that BBers never come off AAS, so this scenario may never be exposed for what it is: a rollercoaster of reality versus water weight. I agree with them. It is not healthy to run back and forth between lost size and fullness caused by water weight. But it also is not a good thing to stay on AAS, all the time, either. This is a totally brain dead approach to AAS use. And the BBer who engages in it never attains the quality, defined physique he deserves. It's just alot of smooth water weight and high bodyfat.

And bodyfat. Everyone should know that the presence of excess estrogen causes fat deposition. The greater and the longer the exposure to elevated levels of estrogen, the greater the bodyfat accumulation. Endos, listen up; stay away from any situation which creates elevated estrogen levels. Everyone, listen up; it is OBSOLETE cycle technology to enable anything but minimal levels of estrogen, at any time. Estrogen is evil, and it is NOT your friend. Using anti-e's cannot reduce estrogen to levels below which the male body cannot function properly. It requires very little estrogen to function, and no anti-e removes it all.

What to do? Begin, with an entirely different approach. Say that ANY water weight is BAD weight. That estrogen must be banished, to the fullest rational extent. And that the muscle you grow and see is, in fact, muscle, and not water. That the muscle produced will be dense and well defined. A quality physique. How, then does one obtain that increased strength, which the water provided, to enhance growth during the cycle? As stated, we first kill off the estrogen and bloat. Second, we emphasize the introduction of powerful androgens into the cycle structure. I am speaking, once again, of tren and anavar. Together, these components make you VERY strong. And with NO bloat or estrogen required. The concentrated androgenicity encourages intense, aggressive workouts, while also encouraging fat burning. It is very commonplace to observe body recompositions during such cycles. In other words, you get big and lose bodyfat, simultaneously. The androgenicity also produces significantly increased muscle density and definition. At cycle end, what you end up with, is the real deal. Solid muscle, growth, and increased definition. No need to rush to the nearest container of creatine to stem your losses. And that strength is yours, to keep. And no test.....

Now, go back to that blood concentration calculator, and compare the blood concentrations of the typical 75 mg EOD of tren, to what you were subjecting yourself to, with that long halflife ester cycle. No stress caused by estrogen pileup, either. Now, you tell me which alternative is better.

What do we use to suppress Estrogen? Well, we formerly used grams of Arimidex per day. Arimidex is now an antique for us. We use Femara. We prefer one 2.5 mg tab ED. Our clients are kept dry as a bone. We will begin to study Aromasin, in mid-September. Aromasin utilizes a different approach to Estrogen control, which promises to be even more powerful than Femara. But research indicates that IGF-1 production is not suppressed by Femara, but may, in fact, be enhanced by it. We do not see that with Aromasin. Time and experimentation will tell.

Most importantly, we keep our people on anti-e, post cycle, during the HTPA recovery process, and later. This both speeds recovery of the HTPA, as well as minimizing fat buildup, while hormone levels fluctuate wildly.

Androgenicity and quality:
BBers commonly justify their long cycles by saying that they need the long cycle to enable "consolidation". They observe that this effect only occurs late in the cycle. Why is this? It's because the androgen level of the Sustanon test, typically used, takes that long to pile up and affect the muscularity of the BBer. But what about Trenbolone? Almost without fail, users commonly report density and hardening to appear within a few weeks. Why is this? Because the androgenic response of tren is so much more powerful than that of test. You can get this response to produce quality muscle at dosages of only 75 mg EOD, in less than a month. In a Sustanon test, it takes many weeks to accumulate an immense blood concentration, to achieve the same result. It is commonplace to observe tren users burning fat, while they cycle. Sust users never report this effect. Why? Once again, the androgenic response of tren is so much greater than that of test. Intense androgenicity induces fat burning. If Anavar is added, the androgenicity effect is intensified, still further.

Ever hear of the term "muscle maturity"? It describes muscle which is dense and defined. The commonly accepted belief is that it takes years and years to acquire this muscle characteristic. But why? Because, using test, the exposure to the muscle hardening androgenicity only occurs for about two weeks in the typical long cycle. And that cycle can only be repeated a few times a year. In the tren/anavar-based short cycle, the exposure to muscle hardening androgenicity occurs for longer periods, and the cycle can be repeated many times a year. "Muscle maturity", and quality, appears with rapidity, and not with years and years. I see muscle quality in only one year of regular short cycling, which I never see in the typical long cycle BBer, unless it occurs for years. Which would you prefer?

The issue of health:
There are those who say the typical American method of cycling, using long acting ester cycles, for 8 weeks or more, and eating 7-10,000 calories per day, for all that time, is no danger to health. To that, I say this: in the millions of years of human evolution, at no time, ever, has the male of our species been exposed to the barrage of hormonal, metabolic, and developmental pressure and manipulation, as occurs during the long acting ester eight week cycle. Do you really believe our bodies were engineered and evolved to deal with this attack, as well as the stress of being forced to add 20-40 pounds of lbm and bodyfat in this same timespan, over and over, again? Don't be a fool. If you believe so, then you are whistling past the cemetery. And there are additional fools, who would have you believe that staying on this course, continuously, can do you no harm. This is, currently, an unprecedented, uncontrolled lab experiment, taking place all over the world, with thousands of men as lab rats. The long term outcome cannot be predicted by anyone, today. True, every single one of us will die, someday. My people and I have no intention of hastening the arrival of that inevitable day, just to look big in a coffin, as we are laid to our eternal rest. What the hell is YOUR hurry? And, what if you don't die? What if you are forced to leave your beloved sport, and spend the rest of your days, living with hypertension and heart damage due to tachycardia. And kidney damage caused by the hypertension. And still other health issue possibilities. Is this any way to live? It's a personal value judgement and risk assessment process. Step back for a moment, and re-evaluate your position and priorities.

The end game:
One other matter, which few consider. Everyone has a genetically pre-programmed maximum of lbm, which their body will suppport, regardless of whether you reach it, via AAS. The faster you approach it, the sooner your gains will decline, no matter how much juice you cycle, and how often you cycle it. You will end up spending money, juicing larger quantities of gear, and stressing your body, for diminishing returns. Finally, you are tapped out. All the slin, growth hormone, IGF-1, and whatever else you toss at it, will never get you past that limit. In a minority of individuals, they will attain immense lbm gains, over time. The rest of us, face the remainder of our BBing careers, re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All we accomplish is staying right where we are, until we leave the sport in frustration.

BBing is a sport for life. Why exhaust yourself and your body, in a hurry to arrive at the end of the journey, earlier than you need to? I'm 48 years old, and I look forward to growing and growing, for as long as I remain in the sport. We have a 65 year old client, who last competed 11 years ago. We did a few short cycles with him, dieted and prepped him, and he walked away with a second prize trophy, healthy and happy. Have any of you ever considered that you might still be able to lift and compete at that age? You better forget it, if all you can think of is slamming on endless pounds, today and tomorrow. Your time in BBing will either end in poor health, or the frustration of having reached your limit, and going no further.

Summary:
I have presented, above, only the most basic introduction to my philosophy and approach to short cycling, and offered only a simple example out of a program which I spent years developing. I have devised an entire series of special-purpose cycles, each of which embody most, if not all of the above principles.

The purpose of the short cycle is to employ moderate dosages of short halflife ester and esterless injectable and oral AAS, combined with moderate and healthy diet, to promote moderate stress anabolic growth, over time. This same process results in very high quality muscle production, which only increases with each cycle, and minimal health impact. It assumes a long term outlook. It is intended for the mature and rational BBer, who expects to remain in the sport for the rest of his life. If you truly love BBing, you never want to leave, and you want to keep your interest and grow, then consider how the short cycle might be what you need for your future in our beloved sport.

Finally:
I want to take the time to publically thank my very special friends and clients, who put their faith in me, and assisted me by using my protocols. Through their invaluable feedback and experience, they enabled me to refine and perfect my overall program. Without them, this all would be nothing but theory. Some are former and present members of this fine board.

And thank you, for taking the time to read all these words. I hope they help you in your journey, as BBers.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

I can't remember hoew to start a thread, any help would be great guys, thanks

 

[jpcf]

Can you do a layout of a cycle like the one you explained above?
Thanks

 

[ChrisSanderso]

Can you do a layout of a cycle like the one you explained above?
Thanks

I am trying to start a thread, just so you know I did not come up with this idea, it was a copy and paste from another forum

I am doing a cycle of Profina (100 mg test prop and 100 mg Tren A). I will do daily injections at 50 mg test prop and 50 mg Tren A everyday , along with 50 mg of d-bol per day for two weeks. A-dex at 1mg per day and clomid at day 15 for 2 weeks. I will front load the first day at 1.5 ml, 3/4 ml in each bicep of test prop and tren A 75mg of each in each bi. So the total front load of 150mg of test prop and 150 mg of tren A.

Pct clomid at 300 mg first day and 50 mg per day for 13 days

 

[jpcf]

i am really interested in seeing your results, i am also planning something similar in a near future please keep us posted¡¡
Good luck

 

[ChrisSanderso]

I will try n start a log

 

[Libertarian]

Injecting Prop into the biceps? Sounds very painful. Have you done that before?

 

[jpcf]

Can this cycle be done using npp instead of tren:

test prop 50mg ed
npp 50mg ed
Dbol 50mg ed or maybe winstrol 50mg ed
Thanks

 

[Libertarian]

Can this cycle be done using npp instead of tren:

test prop 50mg ed
npp 50mg ed
Dbol 50mg ed or maybe winstrol 50mg ed
Thanks

Does NPP have the same half life as Test P? If so, then yes. Just make sure it is out of your system at suppressive levels by day 15.

 

[jpcf]

i think npp is a little longer ester maybe 1 day or less thanks

 

[bigzach1234]

prop is 3 dayhalf life... phenyl prop.. is 4.5

 

[jpcf]

ok thanks for the info

 

[ChrisSanderso]

Injecting Prop into the biceps? Sounds very painful. Have you done that before?

No to be honest this will be my first time with ed injects

 

[ChrisSanderso]

prop is 3 dayhalf life... phenyl prop.. is 4.5

So maybe I should stop my last inject on day 12 and d-bol on day 14 and pct on day 15. There is alot on conflicting info on these cycles but I will give it a try.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

Yeah, I've seen that info before. Your posts have been really helpful, cheers.

I've decided what I'm going to do is :-

Day 1 - 400mg test prop, get the levels right up there.
Day 2 -11 100mg test prop ED (everyday injections are gonna be a pain, but it just seems the best way, and I have to get used to them if I want to use the Tren Ace in the future.)

I'll stop injecting at day 11 so that androgen levels drop significantly enough for me to start recovering when the 14 days are up.

According to the roid calculator my active test levels will be around 100mgs ED for the 11 days. Day 12 will be around 70mg, Day 13 around 50mg, and Day 14 around 40mg, still high enough to exert anabolic activity. All 14 days should be enough for a good 4-5lb, combined with good diet and training (these two things are a given for me, on gear or not!)

They'll then taper off and active test levels will be around 25mgs by day 15 which is the start of PCT, they'll continue dropping to tiny amounts from here. This should be low enough so that combined with an aggressive 14 day PCT recovery should be quick.

I'll then start again, and do exactly the same cycle. That will mean I'll have been "cycling" for a month. I'll see what my gains are like after these 2 cycles, if I think I could still make gains on Test Prop alone I'll stick with it for the third run, if not I'll throw some Tren Ace in there.

I'll do 4 runs all told then have 8 weeks off. Hopefully I'll have made some good gains and will be able to keep them during this 8 week off period. That will be the true test! If I'm happy with the results I can start all over again!

Cheers for the help. I'll be picking your brains again quite alot throughout the next couple of months no doubt!

Just wondering if you got your cycle started and if so hows it going

 

[Libertarian]

No to be honest this will be my first time with ed injects

I've never injected into the bicep but I know if you do it wrong (hit the lymphatic system) you will be in a LOT of pain. Just be careful.

Prop also hurts like hell for a lot of people. My first Prop inject into my quad burned all the way down to my knee right after injecting. Prop is the only thing I've ever injected that provides immediate pain. There are sources out there that use special combinations in their oil solutions that is supposed to reduce/eliminate that pain but I've never had anything like that yet.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

Almost time to start my cycle.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

anyone else got any input on these types of cycles

 

[jart45]

I want to try one

I really want to try these two week cycles it makes perfect sense to me. The only problem I have is that the only thing I have available to me is injectable winny and test E. I have this thought (hopefully I dont get flamed) could I use those to do a two weeker like this? First day only of each two weeker 500mg of test E then 100mg of winny EOD for 2 weeks then cease then go for two weeks? then go for it two more weeks then off two more weeks?

 

[Libertarian]

I really want to try these two week cycles it makes perfect sense to me. The only problem I have is that the only thing I have available to me is injectable winny and test E. I have this thought (hopefully I dont get flamed) could I use those to do a two weeker like this? First day only of each two weeker 500mg of test E then 100mg of winny EOD for 2 weeks then cease then go for two weeks? then go for it two more weeks then off two more weeks?

Not a good idea. Bill Roberts has already advised against using Enanthate for 2-weekers (in fact I think you posted in that thread at Tnation). Either it will be in your system for too long at too high of levels, or you won't be able to use enough to make a difference.

If you can get Winny and Test E, why can't you get Dianabol?

 

[jart45]

The gym where I workout is really the only place I know to get gear. that is about all they use around there deca, test, winny. But I will try to get I try to get a hold of dianbol if I can could I run it with winny for two weekers?

 

[Libertarian]

The gym where I workout is really the only place I know to get gear. that is about all they use around there deca, test, winny. But I will try to get I try to get a hold of dianbol if I can could I run it with winny for two weekers?

Dianabol always is good to add to cycles that don't have other aromatizing compounds and for the most part is a reasonable alternative to Test. I think Dianabol & Winny would work, but liver values are always a concern when running multiple orals. That said, even 10-15mg/day of Dianabol would be enough to give you that estrogen you need. Though, I am not sure how much you would gain with just those two compounds, I wouldn't expect much. Tren + Dianabol is probably the most popular stack for 2-weekers and I would argue probably one of the most effective as well (without having to deal with harsh sides).

 

[jart45]

I know I cant get tren lol I bet people at my gym havent heard of it lol. they all like looking like big big big puffy guys! I just want to be healthy strong and lean. the winny is liquid if that helps.

 

[Libertarian]

You didn't say where you live, but if you're in the states you can easily, legally, and cheaply buy fina pellets and make your own Tren at home. It's not too hard and you have the added bonus of KNOWING that you're running legit Tren at a legit dose. This is a comforting feeling as I feel strongly a LOT of people are running underdosed Tren or Tren that is mixed with Test.

On a side note, if you ever decide to brew Tren, DON'T bake it! It's a myth that it is not effected by heat. If you search, Bill Roberts has posted up a "no heat" method to brewing Tren that looks really easy to follow and you won't damage your gear. EDIT: here is that thread if you or anyone else is interested: https://tnation.tmuscle.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/my_current_fina_formula

 

[jart45]

So is D-bol hard on the liver and lipids? I had always heard the perfect cycle was test E and deca? but this 2 on 2 off makes more sense far as shutdown perspective goes. Sorry to keep asking questions I am just trying to learn. I just want to do something safe and effective if there is such thing.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

No to be honest this will be my first time with ed injects

So no glute or quad injections? What was the evidence on the site injections stuff that it creates localized growth? I don't doubt it, as I've read of some protocols based around this idea, but I'm just wondering your/their reasoning.

 

[Libertarian]

Any methylated oral is going to alter liver values, some more than others. If you are able, I suggest getting regular bloodwork to keep and eye on where you at if you plan to run a lot of orals.

 

[ChrisSanderso]

So no glute or quad injections? What was the evidence on the site injections stuff that it creates localized growth? I don't doubt it, as I've read of some protocols based around this idea, but I'm just wondering your/their reasoning.

I will do quad injects just to rotate site, as well as hoping for localized growth. For me I cannot argue whether this will work but there is a huge amount of aa users reporting amazing growth in the delt areas from site injects. As well as over localized growth but more so on the delts

 

[Totenkopf]

I'm gonna give this a go

I want to try this as well, but want to know if anything else needs to be taken into consideration.

I've only run one cycle before, which was a 2.5 week (18 days) cycle of Superdrol, using a cycle support blend that took a long period of careful research, and a 3 week PCT that included Nolvadex. The only reason I had to cut the cycle short was because of some rather nasty GI issues that I took care of via an elimination diet.

The minimum amount of shutdown I perceived, coupled with me feeling even better than recovered on the first day of the third week of PCT, makes me feel that this cycle plan might work well for me. I'll definitely be logging it if I go this route.

So, with my positive experience with a cycle almost as short as two weeks, and that I was able to recover from said cycle in a similarly short time period, am I right in thinking this 2 on/2 off plan is right for me?

No I don't have bloodwork, although I am giving serious thought to shelling out the extra money for it in the near future.

Also, on another post
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/144423-liftingstuds-2wk-2wk.html

The plan features Epistane being stacked with Superdrol for one or two of the on periods. I have some on hand, only enough for one two week period at 30mg a day, but I don't take the idea of mixing methyl's lightly. Is the 2 on/2 off protocol easier on the liver? I don't see a rationale for this given the use of Nolva between cycles, but thought I would ask anyway.

Perhaps I'll shoot a pm to LiftingStud for this one. I imagine his bodyweight and cycle experience probably played a role in deciding to do this.

 

[jart45]

I have some winny and dbol and want to run some two weekers out of it. I actually started winny @ 50mg and dbol @ 25mg. Does that look like a good place to start for now? Not real sure if I am going to run 2 on 2off or 2 on 4 off, I am in no real hurry just want a litttle bump in quality gains. What do u think?

 

[jgassen15]

props

 

[jart45]

anyone lol?????