Dosing protocols

[EasyEJL]

Someone who has been banned from here was asking me about dosing, and why they should or shouldnt use a kickstart, etc. So I started dicking around with Roid Calculator - half lifes steroids ester half-life looking at halflives and overall buildup, etc.

What was interesting was that the common "you won't see much from test cyp or enan till week 4-5" makes sense as it doesnt hit maximum blood concentrations till then using a standard 500mg/week as 250mg day 1/ day4. But in using that calculator and playing with it, if you dose as

wk 1 600mg day 1/200mg day 3/ 200mg day 5
wk 2-11 250mg day1/250mg day 4 (since you used the extra 500mg in week 1, its a week shorter for same total amt of test)

you are at peak concentrations week 2, and your max level is less than 5% higher than what you hit at max anyhow. (shows 82mg for the day on the middle of week 2, in normal 250 2x a week peak is 80mg)

Does this make sense? Or is there some other reason to not do it this way and either front load with prop or use dbol or some other oral?

 

[bubbachew]

Interesting, Easy. I'm curious as to what people have to say...

I ended up jump-starting my Test E. cycle with some Prop. and I am loving it...thanks jjohn!

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Does that calculator use only elimination half-lives, Easy? I cannot recall. There are other considerations like hormone protein-binding and ester cleaving that can alter total bio., levels of these hormones; half-life is very much an important consdieration, though not the only one!

 

[EasyEJL]

It may be just half life that he is using for calculations, i could pull apart the javascript to try and see, but i'm not that motivated

 

[Mulletsoldier]

It may be just half life that he is using for calculations, i could pull apart the javascript to try and see, but i'm not that motivated

Well, if that is the case [only half-lives] than the issue is appreciably more muddy than the calculator presents.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, for sure. It was interesting though, playing with it. I'll have to look around some more to see if there are more complete ones

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Yeah, for sure. It was interesting though, playing with it. I'll have to look around some more to see if there are more complete ones

Definitely. Specific steroids also induce specific effects on serum protein-binding, which then alter the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] of the hormone itself. Under ideal conditions, the MCR of a sex-steroid is inversely proportionate to its binding affinity to SHBG [the clearance of protein-bound hormones is inhibited by SHBG]. Certain steroids alter albumin and SHBG action, which have 'net' effects for all steroids being taken at the time in terms of MCRs and/or recovery thereafter.

 

[sethroberts]

Definitely. Specific steroids also induce specific effects on serum protein-binding, which then alter the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] of the hormone itself. Under ideal conditions, the MCR of a sex-steroid is inversely proportionate to its binding affinity to SHBG [the clearance of protein-bound hormones is inhibited by SHBG]. Certain steroids alter albumin and SHBG action, which have 'net' effects for all steroids being taken at the time in terms of MCRs and/or recovery thereafter.

A lot of the really important questions have either never been answered or never been published. Are different AAS inducers of different CYP enzymes? What is the volume of distribution of each AAS? What is the clearance? The answer to these questions, in addition to the ones posted by mullet soldier would really be necessary to do what that calculator is attempting to do. Even then, a multi-drug system is going to behave differently than a single drug system. The calculator is fun to play with but that is about it.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

A lot of the really important questions have either never been answered or never been published. Are different AAS inducers of different CYP enzymes? What is the volume of distribution of each AAS? What is the clearance? The answer to these questions, in addition to the ones posted by mullet soldier would really be necessary to do what that calculator is attempting to do. Even then, a multi-drug system is going to behave differently than a single drug system. The calculator is fun to play with but that is about it.

The CYP-group issue is definitely a consideration deserving of accord as well!

 

[XplodeWithMe]

Cosign on the calculator being worthless.

Front loading is worthless considering that it just messes with your hormones more and doesn't really have a good effect on you at all. Kickers are more for getting gains started while the Test esters begin to work.

 

[sethroberts]

Cosign on the calculator being worthless.

Front loading is worthless considering that it just messes with your hormones more and doesn't really have a good effect on you at all. Kickers are more for getting gains started while the Test esters begin to work.

Frontloading is not necesarily worthless -- it is a legitimate dosing protocol that is more commonly called a loading dose. It largely eliminates the build up to steady state that can take weeks with longer esters.

 

[dlaw54]

i have some questions. i am new. is this where and how i ask for some advice on my upcoming cycle?

 

[UnrealMachine]

From what i've read on frontloading, YMMV. Some people like it, others say it doesn't work. It should work in theory and so it's probably worth a try if you're interested.

 

[sethroberts]

From what i've read on frontloading, YMMV. Some people like it, others say it doesn't work. It should work in theory and so it's probably worth a try if you're interested.

It all depends on what you mean by "work" and also whether or not it is being done properly. Really, the only advantage to frontloading is reaching a targeted plasma level of drug sooner than you would without frontloading.

 

[EasyEJL]

Frontloading is not necesarily worthless -- it is a legitimate dosing protocol that is more commonly called a loading dose. It largely eliminates the build up to steady state that can take weeks with longer esters.

I was also (based on some little tidbits you've mentioned from your book in other posts) considering how you could work in some additional front loading by hitting different body parts so you end up with different halflifes/release times and coordinate those to come to peak more rapidly without necessarily going significantly higher than you would with a standard 2x a week gluteal injection

 

[bubbachew]

From what i've read on frontloading, YMMV. Some people like it, others say it doesn't work. It should work in theory and so it's probably worth a try if you're interested.

I'm gonna give it a go on my next cycle...although, I am loving Prop as a jump start...it's just a lot of pinning...

 

[XplodeWithMe]

I was also (based on some little tidbits you've mentioned from your book in other posts) considering how you could work in some additional front loading by hitting different body parts so you end up with different halflifes/release times and coordinate those to come to peak more rapidly without necessarily going significantly higher than you would with a standard 2x a week gluteal injection

I understand where you're going with this, but there should be no correlation between what site you inject and release times and whatnot.

 

[sethroberts]

I was also (based on some little tidbits you've mentioned from your book in other posts) considering how you could work in some additional front loading by hitting different body parts so you end up with different halflifes/release times and coordinate those to come to peak more rapidly without necessarily going significantly higher than you would with a standard 2x a week gluteal injection

One could attempt to do this but what you would likely end up with is inconsistent plasma levels. The goal should really be to pick a plasma level that produces maximum gains with minimal (or acceptable levels of) side effects and maintain that plasma level for the desired time frame with as little variation as possible.

 

[EasyEJL]

I understand where you're going with this, but there should be no correlation between what site you inject and release times and whatnot.

Whether there should or shouldn't be there definitely IS. Even the volume of injection matters. 1ml into the delt has a different profile than 2ml into the glute as far as release time goes, which affects effective half time of dose.

 

[sethroberts]

I understand where you're going with this, but there should be no correlation between what site you inject and release times and whatnot.

Why shouldn't there be? Never mind that it is documented to be so. Have you ever eaten beef? have you ever noticed that different cuts of beef (or pork or whatever) have different textures or tenderness? This is due to differences in fat and connective tissue content of the different muscles. Add in the fact that different muscles also have more or less blood vessels density and it makes perfect sense that intramuscular injections into different muscle groups will have different absorption rates and therefore, different half-lives.

 

[XplodeWithMe]

That's like arguing for site injection to increase site enhancement. If you can produce some study or something I would like to see it involved IM injection and the site effecting the release time.

 

[sethroberts]

That's like arguing for site injection to increase site enhancement. If you can produce some study or something I would like to see it involved IM injection and the site effecting the release time.

Free text available online:

1: J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1997 Apr;281(1):93-102. Links
Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in oil vehicle: effects of ester, injection site and injection volume.Minto CF, Howe C, Wishart S, Conway AJ, Handelsman DJ.
Department of Anaesthesia and Pain Management, Royal North Shore Hospital, University of Sydney, Australia.

We studied healthy men who underwent blood sampling for plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin measurements before and for 32 days after a single i.m. injection of 100 mg of nandrolone ester in arachis oil. Twenty-three men were randomized into groups receiving nandrolone phenylpropionate (group 1, n = 7) or nandrolone decanoate (group 2, n = 6) injected into the gluteal muscle in 4 ml of arachis oil vehicle or nandrolone decanoate in 1 ml of arachis oil vehicle injected into either the gluteal (group 3, n = 5) or deltoid (group 4, n = 5) muscles. Plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin concentrations were analyzed by a mixed-effects indirect response model. Plasma nandrolone concentrations were influenced (P < .001) by different esters and injection sites, with higher and earlier peaks with the phenylpropionate ester, compared with the decanoate ester. After nandrolone decanoate injection, the highest bioavailability and peak nandrolone levels were observed with the 1-ml gluteal injection. Plasma testosterone concentrations were also influenced (P < .001) by the ester and injection site, with the most rapid, but briefest, suppression being due to the phenylpropionate ester, whereas the most sustained suppression was achieved with the 1-ml gluteal injection. Plasma inhibin concentrations were also significantly influenced by injection volume and site, with the lowest nadir occurring after the nandrolone decanoate 1-ml gluteal injection. Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men.

PMID: 9103484 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[UnrealMachine]

he should buy your book now, lol

I'm gonna give it a go on my next cycle...although, I am loving Prop as a jump start...it's just a lot of pinning...

I hear that i'm running 100mg ed

 

[XplodeWithMe]

Not buying the book... no offense, just don't buy books really. Besides Anabolics2007 of course. The BIBLE of anabolics, some of the cycles and **** in there is a lil ****ed, but besides that it's gold.

In that study I'll concede it had an effect from what they observed.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Not buying the book... no offense, just don't buy books really. Besides Anabolics2007 of course. The BIBLE of anabolics, some of the cycles and **** in there is a lil ****ed, but besides that it's gold.

In that study I'll concede it had an effect from what they observed.

I feel Seth's book is a bit more 'on-point' than Anabolics; all due respect to BL, in saying that.

 

[XplodeWithMe]

I'll take a look at it. I appreciate the input