men and soy
- 06-25-2008, 11:39 PM
- 06-25-2008, 11:45 PM
heeeeeeeeeeelllllll no! Save that for soccer moms.The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
today at the airport I chose to have an unhealthy egg and cheese sandwich to get some breakfast protein vs having a fruit smoothie with added soy protein. damn them for not having whey to add
06-26-2008, 12:25 PM
06-26-2008, 02:16 PM
Although I don't recall the context of his statements, renown TRT Dr. Shippen comments in his book (The Testosterone Syndrome) that soy can lead to an increase is test under certain conditions.
06-26-2008, 03:18 PM
My lifting partner is vegan and has soy protein. I personally don't like it, I stick with isolates and Golden FinisH complex.
06-26-2008, 04:38 PM
Soy is a complicated topic IMO. Some groups claim the phytoestrogen activity is enough to shut down a male and others claim the SERM-like abilities are actually good for either sex.
I don't really like the taste of it so I have the luxury of waiting for more data. lol
06-26-2008, 05:17 PM
I think I'm moderately allergic to it haha. Good natural defense mechanism for my testosterone levels I suppose. Realistically though, I think soy would only become a problem if you were to supplement with it day after day. But having a soy protein smoothie as a snack at the airport isn't going to affect your serum test levels. It's good for the heart too, but I just wouldn't make it a habit of ingesting soy isolate on a frequent basis if you're a male.
06-26-2008, 06:20 PM
07-03-2008, 09:51 PM
I don't mega dose soy if I do take it, so I don't think I'll lactate or grow boobs like the guys in the studies. It has never been shown at a significant level to decrease test (or raise estrogen) in moderate amounts. Most studies show a slight increase of test, like Beau mentioned. I don't mind throwing 20g of soy isolate in a shake every now & then. Especially when I get it for free.
07-04-2008, 12:58 PM
yeah, i was lying above, I really just wanted the egg and cheese sandwich. I accept soy in protein bars
07-04-2008, 01:46 PM
there are times where I consume 40-60g of soy protein per day, but it's only when money is tight and I ended up buying the cheaper protein bars that tend to use soy over whey. So, it's never for longer than say, a month.
08-02-2008, 02:37 AM
I avoid it because I don't like the taste and I heard it can turn you into a liberal vegetarian commie who hates the US of A !
08-03-2008, 04:41 PM
hmm, whats the bottom of this? I eat tofu like 5 times a week if not everyday... its a cheap protein meal for me 2.99 for 3 meals w/ 25grams of protein and 14 of healthy fats not to mention the fullness factor.. Is there any link to studies that would be on the topic?
08-04-2008, 01:26 PM
08-20-2008, 09:41 PM
i have a study comparing one of the isoflavones (genestein) to raloxofen in its ability to act like a serm....
it has its place, and its place is in PCT
08-20-2008, 09:44 PM
if i am not mistaken there are some soy proteins with the isoflavones filtered out. there are also many conflicting studies on it from reducing to increasing test levels.
if its in a blend whatever i'll drink it, other than that i will not spend money on it...if you're not using whey you're fukin' up!
08-20-2008, 09:55 PM
soy protein consumption can cause breast tissue in men as well as decrease in testosterone, basically gyno believe it or not.
08-20-2008, 10:24 PM
08-20-2008, 10:26 PM
yes and no........
at high doses genistein can act as an anti estrogen,
yes it can decrease testosterone slightly butttt heres a study...
Titre du document / Document title
Genistein administration decreases serum corticosterone and testosterone levels in rats
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
OHNO Shuji ; NAKAJIMA Yonako ; INOUE Koichi ; NAKAZAWA Hiroyuki ; NAKAJIN Shizuo ;
Résumé / Abstract
The phytochemical flavonoid genistein has been shown to act as a potent competitive inhibitor of human adrenocortical 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and cytochrome P450 21-hydroxylase activities in vitro [J. Steroid Biochem. Molec. Biol. 2002; 80: 355-363]. In the present study, we evaluated the effects of large amounts of genistein continuously administered to weanling rats, particularly on steroidogenesis at the pubertal stage in vivo. Serum concentrations of free and total genistein were significantly higher in the 40 mg/kg genistein administration group when compared with the control group. In genistein administered rats, adrenal weight was significantly higher. Furthermore, a clear expansion of cells was observed in hematoxylin and eosin stained tissue at the zona fasciculata and zona reticularis of the adrenal cortex. However in the testis, no differences in weights or histologic changes were observed. Serum corticosterone concentration significantly decreased to 50% of control levels by 40 mg/kg genistein administration and testosterone also tended to decrease with this dose of genistein. On the other hand, although serum follicle stimulating hormone was unchanged, adrenocorticotropic hormone and luteinizing hormone levels increased with genistein administration. These results suggest a significant effect of genistein on steroidogenesis in the adrenal gland and testis of rats, and this effect appeared to be more evident on steroid production in adrenals than in testis in vivo.
i dont know how it can do both, but it does....
i have a billion studies,,,, but this is why it should be used with something like 3-OHAT
10-02-2008, 06:56 PM
the plant sources of estrogen in soy are weak estrogens, approximately 1/1000th the activity of synthetic estrogens.
a moderate amount of soy containing foods should not be a problem.
soy products, such as tofu, contain compounds which are very similar in structure and function to estrogen, therefore they have both anti-estrogenic and estrogenic effects.
these compounds are called isoflavones.
10-06-2008, 03:31 AM
10-06-2008, 03:34 AM
AST Article on Soy:
Soy protein is just not a very good protein for building muscle. Its biological value is low and it contains large amounts of naturally occurring toxins that many food scientists refer to as antinutrients. Among these antinutrients are enzyme inhibitors that block the action of trypsin and other critical enzymes involved in protein digestion. These inhibitors can cause gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. Studies have also shown that diets high in trypsin inhibitors can be carcinogenic.
Soy contains haemagglutinin, a clot-promoting chemical that causes red blood cells to clump together. And soy also contains phytic acid that can block the uptake of essential minerals - calcium, magnesium, copper, iron, and zinc - in the intestinal track. These chemicals are called "growth inhibitors".
An equally nasty component of soy protein is its high isoflavone content. Isoflavones are estrogen-like compounds also called natural estrogens. In fact just 100 grams of soy protein has the estrogenic equivalent of a typical birth control pill. Studies have also shown isoflavones inhibit the synthesis of certain steroid hormones and inhibit beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase - the key enzyme that converts pro-hormone compounds into testosterone.
It amazes me that some supplement companies ignorantly continue to market isoflavones such as chrysin as a way to promote testosterone production and inhibit estrogen when, in fact, it does just the opposite. It increases estrogen and decreases testosterone. Ever wonder why those andro supplements that contained chrysin never worked? Now you know.
These are a few major reasons why soy protein and its isoflavone content are not only poor nutritional sources for building muscle, but there is mounting evidence that they can actually stunt growth and may be harmful to your health.
I know this is probably exactly opposite of what you've been told by the "spin-doctors" that are promoting their supplements, but if you take a good look at the research you'll discover there are many things they say that doesn't mesh with the science.
10-06-2008, 03:37 AM
by Dr. Paul Cribb Ph.D. CSCS.
AST Director of Research
Many athletes use protein supplements to achieve high protein intakes. Aside from quantity, one reason is that athletes understand that different types of protein have beneficial effects on muscle metabolism and therefore, have the capacity to improve muscle and strength gains during training. Now, a recent study has confirmed that not all protein supplements are the same in what they contribute to muscle gains during training.
In a group of young men that completed 12 weeks of resistance training (5 days a week), those given a dairy milk protein supplement after each workout showed greater gains in lean mass and larger muscle fibers compared to those given a soy protein supplement. The truly interesting part of this research was that both supplements were high quality, hydrolyzed proteins that contained the same amount of protein.
However, dairy milk and soy proteins differ tremendously in their amino acid profiles. Previous studies have shown that this aspect affects the way in which the amino acids are absorbed and presented to muscles. Dairy milk proteins stimulate anabolism and promote gains in muscle protein, whereas soy protein is shown to actually encourage protein loss breakdown (increased urea production).
Source: J Am Coll Nutr 24, 134S-139S, 2005.
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