New to ketogenic diet - have a few questions

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    New to ketogenic diet - have a few questions


    I'm going to be starting a ketogenic diet effective tomorrow, but I'm very new to this type of diet and am not exactly sure how to pursue it.

    My bf% is probably at 10% now. I have gotten very lean following a carb tapering diet protocol and dieting down slowly over months. My relative lean body mass is around 180 so I've been trying to take in 270 grams of protein daily with 200 grams of carbs on lifting days, 130 or so on non-lifting days, and a constant 70 grams of fat daily. These numbers have worked very well for me but now I've realized that I cannot get much leaner than I am by continuing to consume carbohydrates. So... I am looking into going ketogenic.

    For this diet I am going to try to get around 1 gram of protein for each pound of lean body mass I have, and around the same number of calories I get from protein I'll also get from fat. But I really don't feel like meticulously counting calories... so I'm going to just go by general portions and assess progress in a timely way.

    For starters, this is a sample diet I have come up with:

    Meal 1:
    5 whole omega-3 eggs

    Meal 2:
    5 oz meatballs w 2 slices melted provolone

    Meal 3:
    30 g whey with 2 tbsp peanut butter

    Meal 4:
    5 oz chicken breast sprinkled with olive oil and 1 cup asparagus
    2 tbsp peanut butter

    Meal 5:
    Same as meal 2 or meal 4

    Meal 6:
    1 cup egg whites with 2 slices provolone and olive oil

    I will also be getting protein from salmon and steak and tuna. The above are only sample meals.

    This diet is subject to a lot of change. But as for now, I'm going to overestimate a bit with the protein because I don't want to drop too low with my protein intake. 200 is 70 grams less than I've been getting so right off the bat that's less calories I'll be taking in from protein. The fats are there with the protein so I figure everything should pretty much balance out.

    Please, if anyone has tried ketogenic or is familiar with ketogenic diets can you tell me if my diet is looking alright? I'm open to constructive criticism on how to change it. I want results from this. I have been dieting for months and I'm not hesitant to deprive myself of anything, much less carbs. In fact, I tend to find I feel better after eating fats than I do carbohydrates.

    Even if you don't know much about ketogenics, I'd still appreciate some feedback here if you're reading this.

    Thanks a lot to whoever responds...

  2. countryboy
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    i know its a pain in the arse but you really do need to initially coint calories in my opinion.

    keto diet should be around 60%fat, 35% carbs and less than 30gr carbs per day.

    now the carb amount is greatly conjectured, it can be more even upto 100gr and some people still stay in ketosis, some people fall out of ketosis walking past a bakery, start low and asses.

    also there is a "metabolic" change for better want of a term, where your energy sytems switch from using carbs for fuel to using fat for fuels, you will feel ****ty and crave carbs during this period, for me it usually hits the 3rd day and takes about 48 hours to pass, once it does you will feel great.

    one last tip, get most of your fats from good sources and drink a lot of water.

    hope this helps

    countryboy
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    i'm trying to figure this CKD out too brutha. not sure how many fat grams i should be getting in per day. i'm right around 300 grams of protein per day, and about 70 grams of fat per day (fish oil, egg yolk, etc.) and i'm starting to think my fats aren't high enough but i haven't found any yay or nay evidence in either direction. any of diet guru's out there familiar with the proper breakdown?

    countryboy, 60% fat? i mean i'm all about it if that's how it's supposed to be. mind if i ask where you got that info from?
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    protein can be glucogenic

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucogenic_amino_acid

    your not going to want to eat BW x 1.5/g or more

    You'll only need to eat around .8g/lb of BW

    You just dont need as much protein while in ketosis to keep your lean muscle mass
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub View Post
    i'm trying to figure this CKD out too brutha. not sure how many fat grams i should be getting in per day. i'm right around 300 grams of protein per day, and about 70 grams of fat per day (fish oil, egg yolk, etc.) and i'm starting to think my fats aren't high enough but i haven't found any yay or nay evidence in either direction. any of diet guru's out there familiar with the proper breakdown?

    countryboy, 60% fat? i mean i'm all about it if that's how it's supposed to be. mind if i ask where you got that info from?
    I have had upwards of 75% fat per day in my diet. I don't know if c-k-d.com is still around or not but they had a cool calculator that gave the breakdown. When I lay my diet out I make sure I take in no more than 25g of carbs in a day (not including PW shake). the 1 gram of protien per pound of body wieght. The rest of your calories come from fats.

    Edit: I just tried the old c-k-d site and its gone, can't even find it in the wayback machine with google. Here is a decent breakdown but it doesn't include the calculator
    http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/fo...-plan-ckd.html
  6. JDF
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    shoot for between .8-1g/lb of BW for protein

    The rest should come from fats

    I typically eat ~20g of carbs daily while consuming ~2700-2900calories
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDF View Post
    shoot for between .8-1g/lb of BW for protein

    The rest should come from fats

    I typically eat ~20g of carbs daily while consuming ~2700-2900calories
    Wow that's not much protein. I'm assuming you mean total LEAN body mass as opposed to total body weight. Which would put me around 190-200 g protein.

    As helpful as it may be I'm just not going to be counting calories individually. That seems like too much of a headache. I'm taking in at least 20 g fat per meal and eating at least 5 whole meals a day, possibly 6.

    Today is day one of my diet and so far I've felt great. I just got back from the gym doing shoulders tri's and a little bi's and I just had great energy the entire time. No fatigue, no loss of strength or power. Grant it, I'm still using stored glycogen. But regardless, I've had no carb cravings. I think my body just naturally responds much more efficiently to fats than carbs.

    I'll play with this and determine what works best for me. If at any point I start to see a loss of lean muscle mass then I'll up the protein. I'm taking in 0 carbs as of now. I think if I were to take in even just 25 grams of carbs I would feel like ass so I'm just dropping it to 0. I want to go pure ketogenic as of now. Hopefully it works.

    On weekends I'm thinkin I'll do a carb refeed. Has anyone had success with this? Or would a refeed just add an unsightly sum of water weight?
  8. countryboy
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    you boys should really get yourself a copy of lyle mcdonalds e-book "the ketogenic diet" it covers all the varying types of keto diets and gives you application and ratios you need to acheive.
  9. countryboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub View Post
    countryboy, 60% fat? i mean i'm all about it if that's how it's supposed to be. mind if i ask where you got that info from?
    no problem at all mate, most of the info i got about keto style diets are from lyle mcdonalds books and site.

    just remember that 60% of calories of fat is not a lot of grams, 1gr fat = 9 cals, so 60% fat calories of total inatke of 2000 cal per day is only 133gr of fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    no problem at all mate, most of the info i got about keto style diets are from lyle mcdonalds books and site.

    just remember that 60% of calories of fat is not a lot of grams, 1gr fat = 9 cals, so 60% fat calories of total inatke of 2000 cal per day is only 133gr of fat.
    Ok good, I took in a little less than 130 g fat yesterday. I'm not necessarily goin for a set # of cals per day. I understand the importance of consistency, but however many cals I take in is contingent upon how long I'm awake any given day.
  11. JDF
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    grams cals %total
    Total: 2366
    Fat: 172 1545 66%
    Sat: 61 545 23%
    Poly: 30 269 12%
    Mono: 65 583 25%
    Carbs: 28 66 3%
    Fiber: 11 0 0%
    Protein: 180 721 31%
    Alcohol: 0 0 0%


    Thats what I was eating while cutting ( fitday.com )

    in 8 weeks I dropped 10lbs and ~2" on my waist while GAINING strength

    you dont need that much protein while on a ketogenic diet

    Im now recomping and eating ~2800 calores/day with about 225g of protein/day ( im ~ 208 )

    Still gaining mass/cutting fat like mad
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    awesome, going to apply these things and see what happens. thanks bros.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    Wow that's not much protein. I'm assuming you mean total LEAN body mass as opposed to total body weight. Which would put me around 190-200 g protein.

    As helpful as it may be I'm just not going to be counting calories individually. That seems like too much of a headache. I'm taking in at least 20 g fat per meal and eating at least 5 whole meals a day, possibly 6.

    Today is day one of my diet and so far I've felt great. I just got back from the gym doing shoulders tri's and a little bi's and I just had great energy the entire time. No fatigue, no loss of strength or power. Grant it, I'm still using stored glycogen. But regardless, I've had no carb cravings. I think my body just naturally responds much more efficiently to fats than carbs.

    I'll play with this and determine what works best for me. If at any point I start to see a loss of lean muscle mass then I'll up the protein. I'm taking in 0 carbs as of now. I think if I were to take in even just 25 grams of carbs I would feel like ass so I'm just dropping it to 0. I want to go pure ketogenic as of now. Hopefully it works.

    On weekends I'm thinking I'll do a carb refeed. Has anyone had success with this? Or would a refeed just add an unsightly sum of water weight?
    i hated counting cals, protein and so on until someone told me to go to www.fitday.com ........the best thing i ever did, you can put in custom foods and get the values of beef, chicken, vegis, fruits and so on......i personally didn't know that things like carrots had so many carbs in them....stuff like that. go there, plug in all your custom foods and keep track on your other foods you consume throughout the day and every night or morning put them in there and you'll see where your macros are at. best things about it....it's free and simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    i hated counting cals, protein and so on until someone told me to go to www.fitday.com ........the best thing i ever did, you can put in custom foods and get the values of beef, chicken, vegis, fruits and so on......i personally didn't know that things like carrots had so many carbs in them....stuff like that. go there, plug in all your custom foods and keep track on your other foods you consume throughout the day and every night or morning put them in there and you'll see where your macros are at. best things about it....it's free and simple.
    Yeah i should utilize fitday. I'm just lazy. I've been doing things by portions and assessing progress in the mirror instead of counting cals meticulously. That only works until a certain point though I guess.

    I'm thinking about adding in Arachidonic Acid to supplement my diet since it's already so high in fats. Any thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    Yeah i should utilize fitday. I'm just lazy. I've been doing things by portions and assessing progress in the mirror instead of counting cals meticulously. That only works until a certain point though I guess.

    I'm thinking about adding in Arachidonic Acid to supplement my diet since it's already so high in fats. Any thoughts?
    how long have you been tracking your progress with what you are doing? the reason i ask is, whenever one starts a change in diet or a change in training, one should wait and see if he or her needs to supplement anything. otherwise your just throwing money at something that you may not need to.....make sense. if what you've been doing for a bit needs attention, and you've been tracking it and staying strict with it, then by all means add or remove whatever makes sense. i don't think that "A.A." will hurt you i just know it's kind of pricey considering you have to run it for about 50 days or so to get the results that you might hear about, that's all.....
  16. countryboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    Yeah i should utilize fitday. I'm just lazy. I've been doing things by portions and assessing progress in the mirror instead of counting cals meticulously. That only works until a certain point though I guess.

    I'm thinking about adding in Arachidonic Acid to supplement my diet since it's already so high in fats. Any thoughts?
    keep a food journal for a week, record everything, sit down for one day work it all out, adjust where necessary, surely your not to lazy to almost guarantee your results?
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    I really started to see results after I began logging my food
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    keep a food journal for a week, record everything, sit down for one day work it all out, adjust where necessary, surely your not to lazy to almost guarantee your results?
    Well, I know what I eat. I make sure to get the same portions from each meal and relatively the same number of macronutrients each day, but this may vary based upon how long I'm awake. I'm not too lazy to make sure I eat the right amounts. But I don't really see a point in counting cals necessarily.

    I weigh a little less than 200 and I'm around 10% bf. So I'm going to start shooting for 180 grams of protein each day with at least 130 g of fat daily and zero carbs. After two weeks I'll assess my progress and see if I made any results.
  19. countryboy
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    I weigh a little less than 200 and I'm around 10% bf.
    is that you in your avatar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    is that you in your avatar?
    Yeah but that's not a recent pic. That's me from last November when I was bigger but had a higher bf%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    Yeah but that's not a recent pic. That's me from last November when I was bigger but had a higher bf%.
    good stuff mate, just a couple of tips to help you with the sweet cravings you may or may not get.

    drink cold water, eat diet jelly, sip hot green tea, chew ice cubes, i have found all these to be really effective to get over that crave, which in all honestly last maybe 2-3 mins tops.
  22. countryboy
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    also forgot to mention broccoli and baby spinich and green beans are your new best friends, they add bulk to meals and will help keep you regular.
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    also forgot to mention broccoli and baby spinich and green beans are your new best friends, they add bulk to meals and will help keep you regular.
    Ya I actually picked up an unflavored fiber supplement which I need to start tanking at least 4 times a day. Thanks for all the tips bro. I'm usually pretty good with cravings but somethings they do come. I usually favor the drink water approach haha.

    I'm not really sure how many total cals I need each day so I'm going to ball park it and guesstimate with the portions I eat. For my body type, does 190 g protein and 130 g fat seem reasonable to you? I'm going to try to go 60-70% fat and 30-40% protein. Eating about 6 times a day each meal contains 30 g protein and 20 something g fat.
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    body weight multiplied by 11 will give you maintence calories. 205lbs. x 11= 2255.
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    sounds good to me, try it for 2-4 weeks and if it isnt working then switch up the macros a bit
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    what lennox and jdf said
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    i weighed myself just now. i am 187 pounds which is almost 15 pounds lighter than what i was just a few weeks ago at the beginning of may (i.e. 200). and i know the majority of what i lost is fat and water weight because i lost size around my midsection and lower back and seemed to stay strong and keep my size elsewhere. my goal before i started dieting was to get down to a lean 185.

    so using 187 as a benchmark, my "maintenance" cals should be in the vicinity of 2057. so to cut i guess a good strategy would be to subtract 200 and shoot for 1850 cals per day? using this number and going by the 60/40 plan i should be taking in about 120 grams of fat and around 185-190 grams of protein per day.

    another question though i have is this: directly after a workout, should i have just protein or protein with some fat... say, 1 tbsp coconut oil?
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    I dont usually take in fats right after I work out as it will slow the digestion of the protein


    you'll want to lower your protein intake ( BW x ~.8 ) and the rest should come from EFA's
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDF View Post
    I dont usually take in fats right after I work out as it will slow the digestion of the protein


    you'll want to lower your protein intake ( BW x ~.8 ) and the rest should come from EFA's
    Yeah. I'm just afraid to drop it that low so fast. I just feel like I'll feel really soft and lose some muscle mass if I drop right away as opposed to slowly lowering protein intake.

    As of now, all my fats are coming from egg yolks, olive oil, macadamia nut oil, various fish and coconut oil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebab View Post
    i weighed myself just now. i am 187 pounds which is almost 15 pounds lighter than what i was just a few weeks ago at the beginning of may (i.e. 200). and i know the majority of what i lost is fat and water weight because i lost size around my midsection and lower back and seemed to stay strong and keep my size elsewhere. my goal before i started dieting was to get down to a lean 185.

    so using 187 as a benchmark, my "maintenance" cals should be in the vicinity of 2057. so to cut i guess a good strategy would be to subtract 200 and shoot for 1850 cals per day? using this number and going by the 60/40 plan i should be taking in about 120 grams of fat and around 185-190 grams of protein per day.

    another question though i have is this: directly after a workout, should i have just protein or protein with some fat... say, 1 tbsp coconut oil?
    no fat after exercise is better. you want to consume carbs and protein right after exercise to replenish what you've used up during intense lifting. due to your size a "ball park" estimate of carbs is around 30gr. and around 40gr. of protein. a whey protein shake should be adequate, if your doesn't have enough carbs in it, add some dextrose or sucrose
  31. JDF
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    no fat after exercise is better. you want to consume carbs and protein right after exercise to replenish what you've used up during intense lifting. due to your size a "ball park" estimate of carbs is around 30gr. and around 40gr. of protein. a whey protein shake should be adequate, if your doesn't have enough carbs in it, add some dextrose or sucrose

    I wouldnt take in 30g of carbs while on a CKD in one sitting, to high and i think you risk being kicked out of ketosis
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    AHHH crap.....your right i was thinking cal-restriced diet, where one replenishes carbs after w/o...........
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    Yeah. I think I'm just gonna pick up some xtend when i get paid next and do a protein/ BCAA shake PWO, then a protein/ fat meal an hour later. I try to stay clear of any carbs. There are 5 grams of carbs in my protein powder, which is pushing it, but it's tolerable. Any other carbs will come from veggies but I haven't been eating many... I take a fiber supplement a few times a day for regularity.

    I've found that I am extremely insulin sensitive as of now. I'm not sure if this means I am in ketosis or no... I have to pick up ketostix to assess that... but case in point the other day I ate some honey roasted macadamia nuts which only had 7 carbs and directly afterward I felt so tired as if I had eaten 100 grams of carbs on a normal diet. Definitely seratonin kickin in to give me that feeling, but either it was induced by my urge to eat carbs or the fact that I am very sensitive to carbs right now. Makes sense either way I suppose.
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    I never show my body is in ketosis on the ketostix

    They have the slightest change so dont be discouraged if no change, you can by the "side effects" - Vivid dreams, dry mouth, bad breath, weird smelling pee, etc

    BCAAs helped me to recover better after an intense WO and I believe another couple of good supps to take while on a keto diet is CM and BA to help endurance since your body is lacking the carbs for energy
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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    good stuff mate, just a couple of tips to help you with the sweet cravings you may or may not get.

    drink cold water, eat diet jelly, sip hot green tea, chew ice cubes, i have found all these to be really effective to get over that crave, which in all honestly last maybe 2-3 mins tops.

    Also, diet jello with heavy whipped cream... tasty! and ketogenic friendly. I indulged a bit too much in this when I was on the diet but still lost fat lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDF View Post
    BCAAs helped me to recover better after an intense WO and I believe another couple of good supps to take while on a keto diet is CM and BA to help endurance since your body is lacking the carbs for energy
    I never showed that I was in ketosis on the ketostix until I stopped taking BCAAs. They can convert to sugar, you have to be careful. L-Leucine is safer for this use.
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    Very true, certain amino acids are glucogenic and some are ketogenic with Luecine being ketogenic.

    I could still tell my body was in ketosis even though the ketostix didnt say so.

    I experimented: one week on BCAAs and test then one week off BCAAs and test and I didnt notice much difference on the ketostix


    Moral of the story is just because the stix say your not doesnt mean your not, your body may just be efficient at using the ketones
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    True, it was my first time, so I wanted to see the stix turn a dark purple to let myself know I was definately in ketosis. It was odd, I didn't notice a huge crash in energy and I think I even felt much better overall when I was in ketosis. A low carb diet does me well.
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    likewise, my cals have increased by about 900 per day since i changed it around and i'm still dropping slowly but surely, and not lacking on energy at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    True, it was my first time, so I wanted to see the stix turn a dark purple to let myself know I was definately in ketosis. It was odd, I didn't notice a huge crash in energy and I think I even felt much better overall when I was in ketosis. A low carb diet does me well.
    When I hit ketosis I usually dont loose a lot of energy but I do loose muscular endurance.

    I've been doing an HST routine and when im trying to max out every other friday it really takes its toll on me. Im usually completly spent by the time I walk out of the that gym, even with no cardio.

    A low carb diet/high fat/moderate protein diet makes me feel good; euphoric feeling almost all the time, constant energy w/ no crashes, I have a more alpha male kind of feeling ( aggressive ), and I feel like my test levels are just higher - which they should be, supposedly.

    Im an endo who puts on mass/fat as fast as I want to, I was 215lbs eating ~2300calories a day and putting on mass/dropping fat. My only supps were whey, multi, and fish oil.

    This diet has done me wonders and im glad its helped many others!
  

  
 

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