[pudzian2]

I'd like to start a discussion about various strategies, principles and theories. The main topic here is fat loss: but I suppose many of the things mentioned could apply to virtually any goal (diet-wise):

I will use myself as an example: current strategy (goal: fat loss)


my maintenance calories are about 3000.

I train 4 days per week with weights and 2 days HIIT cardio for about 15-20 minutes. I rest either Saturday or Sunday.

Training Day Diet:

1.5g protein/lb LBM, and 1.5g carbs/lb LBM with fats only coming from the meats meats and supplements like EFAs and fish oils.--this is a training day. Fats will total about 15% of caloric intake but no less than 10% for optimal health.

Non Weight Training Day Diet (HIIT performed on these days):

I shift the balance to 2g protein/lb LBM and 1.0g carb/lb LBM also getting fats from the meats (chicken) and from supplements like EFAs omega 3's etc.


the # of carbs are always higher in my breakfast, pre and post training meals, the rest of the day is constant, but I cut out carbs before bed.***


The calories DO fluctuate even though carbs and proteins are traded respectively and evenly when either is increased/decreased. This is due to the extra calories from fat content in meat, etc. (also the PWO meal is deducted from non training days.

since I do not work out on one of the days; sunday or saturday (neither HIIT or weights) I typically drop carbs even lower maybe to .5g/lb LBM, and increase protein intake to make up for the loss. This will deplete glycogen....

If I do this saturday, then I will either eat at my 'training day' level on sunday or further increase the carbs to 2.0g/lb LBM and drop the protein to 1.0g/lb LBM to allow for glycogen uptake.


The Issues:

1.)-some argue (John Berardi is one) that its best to high carb on off days so as to cause glycogen supercomensation and provide fuel for the next days workout, but I haven't tried this. I feel that eating low-no carbs on a training day will just keep me from having energy for the gym.

2.)-i have heard and seen some people have success with a hybrid keto/low carb diet. "Built" over on wannabebig forums is a good example. her meals only contain carbohydrates in the pre and post training meals, NOT with breakfast. The carbohydrates are about 25% of total cals on training days, and on non training days they are about half of that. Her meals (besides the ones with carbs which contain no fat) consist of protein and fat.

Here is a link:Got Built? How to set up a diet - basic carb cycling

seems interesting but I dont really know.... any thoughts?

3.)- Chris Aceto a very well known nutritional expert promotes the ideas that my current dietary strategy is based upon. So refer to my strategies above to see what that is. ONE THING HE SAYS which is interesting is he recommends only accounting for complete protein sources when computing daily carb/protein intake. For instance...oatmeal provides protein, spinach provides protein...but he insists that only sources like meats, eggs, powders etc should contribute towards daily totals. I suppose then the other incomplete proteins are treated like fiber for example? I came to realize this when using fitday a lot to keep track of daily totals.... my complete protein source quantities needed to be lowered to compensate for the protein I was getting from my carb sources (oats, brown rice, ezekiel, spinach etc). I adjusted this according to what I mentioned I am currently doing in the opening of this post. seems to be treating me well. Chris Aceto said that dark greens like spinach, broccoli, green beans etc can be added in almost any quantity (within reason) to provide fiber, and other vitamins/minerals (benefits of veggies) at almost no caloric cost.

thoughts?

4.)- My last meal of the day is 1/2 to 3/4 cup of friendship low fat low sodium cottage cheese. the meal before contains the same amount of carbs as the rest of my daily meals (aside from breakfast, pre and post training). I train in the evening so my meal 5 is the meal after my immediately PWO meal, and meal 6 is the last of the day.


-----on NON weight days, I was considering replacing the calories from carbs in the two meals prior to the last meal of the day with the equiv amount of cals from fat.

^^ of course this would increase the % of fat in my daily macro split on HIIT days BUT it would drive carbohydrates lower. ( it is kind of my take on "Built's" principles.)

^^ its seems like this would be advantageous to the person looking to drop bodyfat at least in this sense:

carbs are eaten all day leading up to the training session, including immediately PWO and the meal soon thereafter. (on HIIT days it this would only apply to PWO meal).

glycogen stores are filled all morning/day, then expended during the training session (if training smaller body parts than extra core work or some aerobic activity after the weight session could ensure glycogen depletion) or I could simply have fewer carbs PWO. NOW, after training, carbs are eaten to blunt catabolism, take advantage of insulin, and help refill (partially) the glycogen depleting workout. then the next meal is 0-low fat with correct daily portion of carbs and protein. The following meal is either slow absorbing protein or the cottage cheese mentioned above.

!!heres the thing: I train 2 days on 1 day HIIT, 2 days on, 1 day HIIT, 1 day off, Repeat. The HIIT days would be the lower cal lower carb days. This is where I wanted to replace even more of those carbs with fat towards the end of the day, ending the day with plain protein just as on training days. Come sunday for example (rest day) fat is dropped to 10% (no added fat) carbs are up to the 2.0/lb LBM and protein is sitting at 1.0g/lb LBM.... sort of a refeed/reset day


then the week is repeated...

anyone think this is good?

[lethaljd]

That looks like a solid plan and it is basically what I have been doing for cuts for the last year or two. I find that I need to gradually add in SS cardio to the lifting days as fat loss slows if I don't want to further decrease my calories.

The same logic can be applied to lean bulking, but I typically consume carbohydrates for the first meal of the day when doing so.

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by lethaljd

That looks like a solid plan and it is basically what I have been doing for cuts for the last year or two. I find that I need to gradually add in SS cardio to the lifting days as fat loss slows if I don't want to further decrease my calories.

The same logic can be applied to lean bulking, but I typically consume carbohydrates for the first meal of the day when doing so.

so are you saying you follow "built's" plan? or one similar to the one that I will be following at the conclusion of my post.

I ask because you say you usually eat carbs with breakfast when lean bulking...so I assume you are referring to built b.c she doesn't

[lethaljd]

Yes, pretty much exactly like built's plan. Typically no carbs until pre/post workout. I actually prefer to consume a blend protein (whey/casein) along with fish oil prior to bed, rather than cottage cheese, just to keep the insulin spike as low as possible.

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by lethaljd

Yes, pretty much exactly like built's plan. Typically no carbs until pre/post workout. I actually prefer to consume a blend protein (whey/casein) along with fish oil prior to bed, rather than cottage cheese, just to keep the insulin spike as low as possible.

good idea about the cottage cheese. I was thinking that myself.

anyway... I am thinking about adjusting to my outlines above, and if that works then stick with it, but I eventually will want to try the carbs only with pre/post and maybe breakfast approach.

[CryingEmo]

Carbs before and after WO conflict with most CKD methodologies, and AD. It would work for TKD, but you aren't supposed to be spiking insulin PWO on AD/CKD. That is saved for the carb up day.


Also, if you want your carb up to fall on the day before and on training day for energy, the start your carb up later in the afternoon and finish it the next day after training earlier.

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by CryingEmo

Carbs before and after WO conflict with most CKD methodologies, and AD. It would work for TKD, but you aren't supposed to be spiking insulin PWO on AD/CKD. That is saved for the carb up day.


Also, if you want your carb up to fall on the day before and on training day for energy, the start your carb up later in the afternoon and finish it the next day after training earlier.

im not necessarily running CKD or any specific protocol. I make my own by what works for me...

[Distilled Water]

Pudzian here's what I did when I lookd my best, 165-170lbs at 6-7% BF, I wasn't very strong but I lookd damn good. Like I had said in another thread I found my diet plans from then (amazeing what you find when it's moveing time)

I trained weights Mon-Fri, cardio 30-45 min post workout. Here's exactly how I ate

Breakfast
6 egg whites
1scoop Whey Isolate
1/2 cup oats, dry

Meal 2 & 5
8oz chicken
1/2 cup Brocolli

Pre-Workout
2 scoops Protein (1whey/1egg)
1/3 curp Brown Rice, dry

Post Workout
2 scoops Protein (same blend)
1/2 cup White Rice, dry
2TBS honey

Before Bed
6 egg whites
1 scoop Casien or Milk Protein
2TBS Flax Oil

On weekends I was going out and partying....hard. I'd eat anything and everything (High Carbs) all day saturday and early on sunday. Then once I returned home I was back on course with the diet and would usually do Meal 2 &5 and before bed meal. Then back to the grind on monday

[Distilled Water]

I wasn't taken many supps

(4) Beverly Ultra 40's with meal 1,2,5
(4) Beverly Mass Aminos with meal 1,2,5

Take before Breakfast and Pre Workout
25mg Ephedra
200mg Caffeine
(1)mini aprsin

5gr Glutamine before each meal and 10 post workout
5gr Creatine Mono before breakfast, pre, post workout

I drank 1/2-1 gallon green tea/day (brewed with 4-5 bags Wal-Mart cheap Green Tea) useing a grean tea maker. I'd mix it into 1 gallon water chug of half H2O and half green tea

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

I wasn't taken many supps

(4) Beverly Ultra 40's with meal 1,2,5
(4) Beverly Mass Aminos with meal 1,2,5

Take before Breakfast and Pre Workout
25mg Ephedra
200mg Caffeine
(1)mini aprsin

5gr Glutamine before each meal and 10 post workout
5gr Creatine Mono before breakfast, pre, post workout

I drank 1/2-1 gallon green tea/day (brewed with 4-5 bags Wal-Mart cheap Green Tea) useing a grean tea maker. I'd mix it into 1 gallon water chug of half H2O and half green tea

thats what im doing right now (supps included) but I have 1-2 more meals due to my long days.

[Distilled Water]

Originally Posted by pudzian2

thats what im doing right now (supps included) but I have 1-2 more meals due to my long days.

Well.........Damn Pud'z your gonna be lookin' like a real bad ass in about 8 weeks lol.

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

Well.........Damn Pud'z your gonna be lookin' like a real bad ass in about 8 weeks lol.

i started 'dieting' about 4 weeks ago and have testing/tightening up what works. Im starting to feel that I respond best to a low carb environment. I will however keep adjusting. 6-7% bf is AWESOME bro. I really want to achieve that soon. im about 10-11 with some water (IGF-1 + pGH=WATER RETENTION for me)

[Distilled Water]

I start on my pGH as soon as it gets here. It's kinda of depressing seeing myself that lean and haveing "decent" size.

I was stupid and tried a few different diets since then that haven't worked the greatest. Pair that with some injuries and the strain of baseball season and have really added some fat mass and maybe a few lbs lean body mass. I just need to get back to my roots,lol.

[pudzian2]

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

I start on my pGH as soon as it gets here. It's kinda of depressing seeing myself that lean and haveing "decent" size.

I was stupid and tried a few different diets since then that haven't worked the greatest. Pair that with some injuries and the strain of baseball season and have really added some fat mass and maybe a few lbs lean body mass. I just need to get back to my roots,lol.

yea it happens to all of us. Injuries, distractions, FAT etc hahah at least you have already found what works for you. should be easy to get back there,.