Modified CKD or Anabolic Diet
- 12-13-2007, 01:21 PM
Modified CKD or Anabolic Diet
I want to experiement with a diet that is low carb on now Workout days, and medium - high carb on Workout days.
The theory is that you eat enough carbs to fill glycogen stores only for the workout plus cardio, then you deplete them from just workout and cardio, and the next day your body is back to using fat for fuel. I wonder exactly how many carbs would be enough though?
Has anyone tried anything like this?
- 12-13-2007, 03:44 PM
Everyone has a fear of eating no carbs at first since we are told our entire lives that they are necessary to fuel the body. But its a great lifestyle once you let go of this fear. Once fully adapted to the strict Anabolic Diet the weekend carb-ups will serve to supercompenate glycogen stores with enough glycogen in your muscles that it will be spared during the week. An efficient fat burner will only be using this glycogen during aerobic exercise. Honestly, the only day of the week on this diet that I don't feel like doing high rep stuff is on the day right before the carb-up and I just save that day for heavy lifting. Keep in mind I am an olympic lifter and my workouts usually last 1 hr. 45 min. - 2 hrs. (this is the same conditioning program that the football players at my school are on). I also do cardio 3x per week for about 30-45 min. Needless to say diet works great even if you are highly active. And this is running on 30g of carbs per day. Also, if you want to you can time your carb-ups so that they happen on workout days (which will be two of your workouts per week). Someone who plays sports can tweak it if they feel run down and add an extra midweek carb-up. IMO, you should try doing the strict AD first and then fine tune it to your needs if you feel your workouts are suffering (and I highly doubt this will be the case).
The metabolic diet was made more for the general public. It allows you to play with the ratios of carbohydrates during the day and you may go up to as high as 100g of carbs. Everybody is different, and some might need more carbs during the day but about 80% of people will be humming along smoothly on the strict AD.
You can also try variations of this diet like the Natural Hormone Enhancement diet, which would have you consuming about 50g of simple carbohydrates post workout if you think it will help. But if your goal is to burn fat at an optimum rate it will serve to help you to skip these post workout carbs because post workout is one of the best times to take advantage of the extra fat burning effects you will achieve without the spike in blood sugar. Additionally, research shows that once you are fat adapted your body doesn't need carbohydrates post workout because IGF-1 shuttles glycogen into the muscles. The same holds true for doing cardio, why would you want to eat carbs right before cardio if your goal is to be as lean as possible? You have people telling you time and time again that if you are a carb-user then you should do fasted cardio in the morning to see the greatest fat burning benefits. But on the AD it doesn't matter what time of day you do cardio because you will still have the same effect on fat burning. Another reason why you might be more interested in the Natural Hormone Enhancement diet is that instead of carbing up two days in a row it would be split into a carb up midweek and one on the weekend.
My advice to you would be stick to the strict AD for a while before coming to the conclusion that you need more daily carbs. People have this fear that if they drop carbs they won't gain muscle, but I assure you this is only a myth. Last carb-up I consumed 12,000 calories over the weekend and I'm looking LEANER this week and my triceps are pumped and looking jacked. This is the supercompensation I was talking about. There are also many other versions of the diet that will allow you to eat more carbs, but IMO don't fix something thats not broken. You should start here and then you can branch out if you feel the need.
Fat satiates and as a result you will not be hungry on this diet. You will have a more stable mood and consistent energy from a steady release of dopamine. I've heard stories from people who did the post-workout carbs or going up to about 100g of carbs a day and the spike in blood sugar may deprive you of the consistent energy this diet affords (usually people feel tired after consuming the post workout carbs) as well as the benefit of never being hungry (or full).
Depriving your body of those carbs during the week will trigger a constant release of growth hormone in the body. And one benefit this diet affords that others don't is that on the first day of your weekend carb-up, your body is still using fat for energy but since you're eating carbohydrates it triggers a huge release of insulin. What does this mean? That your body is RELEASING GROWTH HORMONE AND INSULIN AT THE SAME TIME. Not to mention that during your carb-up your body will release a cascade of hormones triggering a huge rise in testosterone. But it gets better, this cascade of hormones you experience on the weekend will be followed by a large rise in testosterone during the week. Both the weekend carb-up and the absence of carbs during the week are effective because they counter against each other. Why am I telling you all this extra stuff that you didn't ask about? Because IMO, knowing the principles behind the diet will only serve to enlighten you as to why you are/should live this lifestyle. Forgive me if this is information that you already knew, but it will also give the onlookers who know nothing about the AD a chance to hear it too.
- 12-14-2007, 11:25 AM
Had to give some rep's for that one
Could you post what your typical food intake looks like for the day, I just started a CKD again about 2 weeks ago and I am getting sick of eating the same things every day?
12-14-2007, 12:14 PM
Today is the second day. I'm just afraid I'm going to get fat eating all of this fat... and I worry my carbs are too high.
Honestly the only carbs I get are from brocolli, cucumbers, spinach, they few in whey, and the few in flaxseeds. I don't eat any fruit, bread, etc.....
12-14-2007, 12:47 PM
Secondly, don't count fiber toward your daily carb intake. If your flax seed is the milled version the only carbohydrate it should have in it is fiber. This is a good thing and I use about 10 tbsps. every day which gives me 20g of fiber. You should opt for around 30g of fiber per day. And whatever vegetables you are eating the same thing holds true. It sounds like you are on the right track. I eat loads of spinach and for every 3.5 cups you only have 1g carb that counts toward your daily cal intake and an additional 3g of fiber. I am the same way as you bro, I get most of my daily carbs from veggies which is the way to go. The extra fiber will only serve to lean you out more and improve cholesterol levels. Oh, and did I mention once you have been on this diet for 3 months that you can eat all the green veggies you want and don't count them toward your daily cals?
Don't get discouraged if you add a little fat in the beginning of this diet as your body needs time to adjust to using fat as its main fuel source. The first few weeks of the diet I gained a few pounds of fat and then at the same cals I started to notice a reduction in bodyfat past the level of where I started. Stick with it, this is a lifestyle change and not just a quick fix.
12-14-2007, 12:49 PM
Also, make sure your counting every carb you put into your mouth. I mean be as careful as to count the air you breath. Carbs are hidden in a lot of things. People think its alright to consume stuff like gum that has sugar alcohol but these must also be counted as carbs. Its especially important to do this during the break in phase.
12-14-2007, 12:55 PM
Jeff, this is what I ate yesterday:
Breakfast: 6 eggs scrambled w/ 1/4 cup cheese and 2 tbsps. heavy whipping cream, 3.5 cups spinach.
Post Workout: 40g Whey Protein w/ 10 caps fish oil.
1 Hr. Later: chicken breast w/ 1 tbspn. butter and 1.5 tbsps. extra virgin olive oil.
Lunch: 40g whey protein, 1/4 cup heavy whipping cream. 5 tbsps. milled flax seed.
Supper: ground turkey, 2 tbsps. natty peanut butter, 1 tbspn. extra virgin olive oil, 1 oz. cheese.
Dinner: steak, 3.5 cups spinach w/ 2 tbsps. extra virgin olive oil. 5 tbsps. milled flax seed.
I also switch it up during the week so this isn't set in stone. The only thing that is a staple is the scrambled egg breakfast to get me going
12-14-2007, 01:02 PM
I am a HUGE proponent of CKD. I practically drink EVOO. LOL. It's a pretty amazing diet really, the only diet that I know of where you can be in a Hypercaloric state while losing bodyfat and gain lean mass! Once your body acclimates itself to trace carbs, you'll find it's surprisingly easy to make progress with your physique and in the gym
After the new year I am going to change it up though. I am gonna log P-slin and I will be doing CKD wit the exception of 75g carbs from oats 1st thing in the am 1 hour preworkout.
12-14-2007, 01:46 PM
Here's what mine has looked like thus far:
Meal 1: 6 oz chicken breast with 1 TBLSpoon Omage 3 mayonaise, 2 peices cheddar cheese melted over 2 cups brocolli. 1 scoop whey, 1 TABLEspoon flaxseed milled.
Protein: 66 grams, Fat: 33 grams, Carbs: 4 from whey
Meal 2: 1 scoop whey, 1/2 TBLspoon natty PB, 1 Tablespoon milled flax
Protein: 27 grams, Fat: 10 grams, Carbs: 4 from whey, 1.5 from PB = 5.5
Meal 3: 1 can of chunk lite tuna mixed with 1 Tablespoon Omega 3 Mayo. 1 TABLEspoon natty PB, cucumbers, 2 cups brocolli with 1 peice cheddar cheese. 1 Tablespoon Flax milled.
Protein: 45 grams, Fat: 30 grams, Carbs 3 from PB
What do you think?
12-14-2007, 02:04 PM
12-14-2007, 02:04 PM
Are you sure you guys aren't just genetic ecto's who can eat anything and not have concequences? I'd like some feedback from an endo.
12-14-2007, 02:09 PM
nah dude, I'm definately an endo, no doubt. That's why I say you'll be amazed at how effective this regimen is. Just knock yourself out on it for 21 days... you'll see results. I wouldn't carb up for 10 days though once you start, to properly deplete glycogen levels. After your 1st couple of refeeds, you;ll be sold
12-14-2007, 02:27 PM
12-14-2007, 02:31 PM
Also, should I be hypocaloric or subcaloric right now?
I've been eating 3000-3200 calories a day which is slightly below maintenance.
12-14-2007, 02:49 PM
12-14-2007, 02:50 PM
12-14-2007, 03:01 PM
12-14-2007, 03:04 PM
Cool, thanks for the information.
I'm curious, what does a refeed day look like for you, and a 'regular' day?
12-14-2007, 03:05 PM
LOL, that looks real familiar. Except I Have been putting coconut oil in my shakes instead of the whipping cream. My new best friend are deviled eggs, take the yolks out of the hardboiled eggs and mix with a bunch of mayo and some hot sauce (I am bad about cooking breakfast, so I can make these ahead of time).
12-14-2007, 03:06 PM
12-14-2007, 03:18 PM
grams cals %total
Fat: 227g 2044 64%
Carbs: 43g 103 3%
Protein: 258g 1030 32%
Keep in mind the carbs are not net carbs, that figure includes the fiber from various nuts and veggies
As for refeed... I don't tally that any more either. I just try to keep the fat really low and the carbs 300-350g and the protein 200-225g, which is actually less cals than my low carb days. So far I am down 22 lbs in the past 7 weeks and have lost ~4 inches on my waist
I hope that helped
12-14-2007, 03:53 PM
I don't feel as hungry with the same number of calories as I do when high carb/very low fat.
I just had
1 TABLEspoon PB, 1 Tablespoon Milled flaxseed, 1 Tablespoon Omega 3 mayo, 1 can of tuna, 2 oz chicken breast, 1 peice cheddar cheese, 1/2 cup spinach and 1 oz cucumbers.
Fat: 30 grams, Protein: 50 grams, Carbs: 3 + 3 grams fiber = 6
12-14-2007, 04:04 PM
12-14-2007, 05:16 PM
CryingEmo, Leggo has given you great advice. During the break-in phase your cals should be 18x bodyweight. If you are still feeling hungry feel free to bump that number up a bit. Do not go below maintainance cals during the break in period. Its up to you whether you want to do a 12 day break in phase or start with the 5 on 2 off. I personally did the 5 on 2 off right from the start and didn't have any problems. I also came into this diet straight from a diet of 500+g of carbs per day so the transition may have been harder for me than it will be for you. If you stick it out for the initial 12 days you will adapt quicker. Also, your protein intake for you first meal is out of proportion with meal 2 and you should try to bring those numbers closer each meal. They don't have to be perfect but I personally wouldn't go as high as 60g of protein during a meal because the extra protein that your body can't digest is going to be broken down into sugar through gluconeogenesis which will be counterproductive. Also, you shouldn't be concerned about eating too many carbs as long as you are counting them, just write down how many you eat during each meal and you will be able to adjust at the end of the day. For instance, if you've had 4 tbsps. PB then just know that its going to be 10g of carbs that count against you, and if you come to 29g of carbs by your last meal just don't eat carbs during that last meal of the day. If you stick to writing down everything you eat for the first few weeks it will become second nature (and I know writing it down can be a ***** sometimes). In one of your posts it seems like you were still adding the fiber as carbs against you (you put 3 + 3 = 6, but don't count that as 6, count it as 3). Also, let me assure you I am no ecto I was a fatass up until about 2 years ago when I got into dieting.
Jeff, you can piss on all the ketostix in the world for all I care but its a worthless endevour. The goal of the anabolic diet is NOT to be in ketosis. Ketosis is catabolic and you will not be making progress this way. That is why you are supposed to be eating around 30g of carbs per day, just enough to be hovering above ketosis but not enough to kick your body out of burning fat for fuel. And yes it is true that coconut oil uses a different energy substrate than other fats which can kick your body out of fat burning mode if you use too much. Dr. DiPasquale covers this in the anabolic diet. But if you're using like 1 or 2 tbspn a day I don't think it will matter much.
Leggo, I also drink EVOO like its going out of style.
Last edited by Botch; 12-14-2007 at 05:38 PM. Reason: spelling error
12-14-2007, 05:25 PM
12-14-2007, 05:26 PM
refeeds should be at 60-65%carbs/20-30%fat/10-15%protein. Its up to you to play with those numbers but you really don't need to be eating much protein at all during the refeed. DiPasquales saw his athletes have the best results around 10%protein during the refeed. I personally opt for at least 400g of carbs per day on the refeed (this ends up being more like 600g for me though). If you skimp on the carbs during the carb up you will certainly be feeling it during the next week when you're working out. Also, keep it 70% clean and then you can have whatever goodies you want to fill up that extra 30% and this will not hinder results. This is the great thing about the diet, you can have a couple pints of ice cream on saturday night or order a pizza from your favorite pizza place without the guilt. Oh yeah, and you can also drink alcohol guilt free during the carb ups as well.
12-14-2007, 05:27 PM
12-14-2007, 05:27 PM
CryingEmo, I'm going to see if I can pull up a couple posts for you about some pure endo's results with this diet. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
12-14-2007, 05:35 PM
I decided to try it out for the 1st time about a year and a half ago and made great progress with it.
When you start a CKD, it will f*ck with your head a little but keep at it and you will like the results. I think CKD works best for those who are endo IMO
12-14-2007, 05:42 PM
12-14-2007, 05:47 PM
What do you think about using Xtend on the anabolic diet? 1-3 serving during WO?
I know that iso-luceine and valine are glucogenic, but when converting to glucose one serving results in 3.5 carbs.
Would straight luecine be better?
12-14-2007, 05:57 PM
Interesting post by DH on the Anabolic Diet forum on T-Nation. Hes a real authority on this diet and has been on it for 12 years now since Mauro published the AD in 1995. This is a post in regards to a question asked about ketogenic diets that you see today:
Duchaine embellished much. Dr. D was using his diet in the 70's for his PL training. He didn't publish it in a popular way. Duchaine rewrote the Rebound diet as BodyOpus. Rebound was Zumpano's idea. Duchaine was a bit of a thief and an opportunistic tag along. Gironda and Rheo Blair began the idea of a fat/protein diet with targeted hits of carbs for anabolic effect. DiPas reworked it into the AD, which had significant differences. BO didn't work nearly as well and is a bear to follow because he gets nuts with his timing and sources. Dr. D has commented on Dan's lack of formal education showing through in the Opus.
For example Duchiane focuses on ketones and ketostix. Dr. D says after a few weeks you are converted and "weaned" off of ketones and are burning fatty acids. The diet is not ketogenic at all, but Dan didn't understand that. Most don't. Most of the half-informed people on the site or in your everyday life will assume you are on a ketogenic diet such as Atkins. Then you'll hear that ketosis is very bad long term (Lyle MacDonald) and they'll never pay attention to the words out of Dr. D's mouth. IT IS NOT A KETO DIET. DiPas calls it simply a cyclical diet. Ketosis is not a good thing and should be a transitory state before you take off the training wheels and really get going. In short, avoid BO. Or try it out and see it's shortfalls firsthand.
PS. My favorite other "argument" against the AD. "Your brain needs carbs!" Wrong. I'll save that for another day on the thread. It's time for protein powder, almonds, and some slim jims.
Last edited by Botch; 12-14-2007 at 05:59 PM. Reason: clarification
12-14-2007, 05:58 PM
12-14-2007, 06:09 PM
18x my bodyweight is 4200 calories, wayyy above maintenance level. Wow, that seems like alot. I'm usually closer to 3400 if that.
12-14-2007, 06:11 PM
If it feels like too much you can start at 15x bodyweight, but Mauro doesn't recommend going any lower than that during the break in period.
12-14-2007, 06:12 PM
Also, this diet is extremely protein sparing. You can get away with as little as 1g protein per pound of bodyweight on this diet. So if you feel like your not meeting those daily needs, just down a couple more tbsps. EVOO and you'll be good to go.
12-14-2007, 06:16 PM
yah.. Drink evoo!! LOL I rarely ever even measure it out anymore! I keep my evoo in a squeeze bottle (a plastic oil/vinigar bottle) and just give a hefty squeeze into my mouth with meals. haha
12-14-2007, 07:45 PM
I just did 30 minutes of cardio and I crashed hard afterwards. I felt very weak, like hypoglycemic feeling.
I came home and ate like 800 calories, eggs, cheese, EVOO, spinach, 2 oz chicken, 1 TBLspoon omega 3 mayo... I feel a little better now. I'm scared my carbs are too high however.
The ON Whey I've been using has 4 grams carbs per serving. I've had 3 1/2 scoops today, which is 16 carbs alone. Factor in 2 serving of Xtend, which could potentially be another 7 carbs, making it 23. Next I've had about 3 Tablespoons of PB, which is 9 carbs - fiber, making it 5. Some of the cheeses may have had 1 or two grams. I'm pretty damn close to the limit. Maybe I need to cut out Whey.
12-14-2007, 07:53 PM
12-14-2007, 09:03 PM
Yeah your carbs are lookin okay bro. You should pick up some flavorless whey protein. It tastes like a dirty jockstrap but it only has 1g carb per 25g of protein. To make it taste less like a toilet bowl I usually throw in an equal or two and some cinammon to mask it. Another good way to make a pretty good shake out of flavorless whey is to add some sugar free jello and heavy whipping cream. NOW makes some flavorless protein and some online retailers sell 5 lbs. for $30.
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