[thesinner]

Originally Posted by jjohn

This is call a long term investment. Most don't want to do this, and prefer a quick buck. That doesn't mean you make tons of money, that means you invest tons of money.

You cannot legally copy a product for it's claims, but some just do it anyways.

It's not so much a quick buck, but for most supplements, the ends wouldn't justify the means.

It takes a lot of time and money to get a patent. There's no sense going after it unless you are 100% certain the product will (1) Be able to continue great sales for the protection period (2) Will be approved. Granted there's some stupid patents that get handed out (*cough* cordless jumprope), there's also a fair number of good ideas that have been rejected. (3) Can afford to apply for the patent

There's probably some other things I can't think of off the top of my head. But yeah, a patent is a lot of work that's often times unnecessary.

[dannyboy9]

Originally Posted by dsade

So be honest, you would really have no problem at all paying $150 for 100 grams of Creatine Monohydrate, and eliminating most of the other product formulas on the market (xtend, etc) due to cost prohibition, if it meant having 2-3 studies on each particular brand?

Why would I have to pay more because a company does studies on their product? How cheap of a company are we talking about?

If a company does clinical testing on their studies to prove it's true efficacy (basically, that it does what it's supposed to do once you ingest it), that's not going to knock the rest of the products off the market, just make them look inferior. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by dsade

Oh, and most herbals and naturally occurring compounds cannot be patented.

You can't patent the ingredients, you can patent formulas. Basically, the proportions in which the ingredients are blended together to make a product -that can be patented. Good point.

[dsade]

All costs are passed on to the consumer in order to maintain an acceptable margin.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

Why would I have to pay more because a company does studies on their product? How cheap of a company are we talking about?

If a company does clinical testing on their studies to prove it's true efficacy (basically, that it does what it's supposed to do once you ingest it), that's not going to knock the rest of the products off the market, just make them look inferior. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sinner Nutrition (fictitious company) is going to make a creatine product. This product consists of Creatine Monohydrate, Dextrose, and BCAA's. So SN decides to take your advice and conduct clinical University testing. They spend $20k for a randomized triple blind study on the effects of their creatine product, SinnerCrea. Testing shows that SinnerCrea was 300% more effective than the placebo group.

Dsade Incorporated (another fictitious company with no relation to the dsade of AM....as far as I know ) comes along, and mixes Creatine Monohydrate, Dextrose, and BCAA's to make TheSamething. DI's product is 60% cheaper because they didn't have to pay for the research. So tell me, what the heck is the difference between SinnerCrea and TheSamething that would purport the consumer to buy SinnerCrea over TheSamething? SinnerCrea is has been clinically tested for it's effects in correspondence with placebo (mind you this does not 'prove' anything), but TheSamething is...well....the same thing. It also costs 60% less money, and has received great anecdotal feedback.

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

You can't patent the ingredients, you can patent formulas. Basically, the proportions in which the ingredients are blended together to make a product -that can be patented. Good point.

Proprietary blends are a joke (sinner hates proprietary blends). It withholds important information from the customer, and the likelyhood of them being patented is not very likely. The ones that say "patent pending"....yeah, they're not getting a patent.

[Primordial Perf]

We don’t do full blown placebo controlled, double blind clinical studies, (Most sup companies don’t have the backing to fund $50k plus clinical studies) but we do gather in-house testers to run saliva and blood hormone levels…

http://www.primordialperformance.com/results.cfm

-Pp

[dannyboy9]

Originally Posted by dsade

All costs are passed on to the consumer in order to maintain an acceptable margin.

In Layman's Terms, that means:

To make up for the lack of funds a company has, they charge the consumer to make up for it by increasing the price of their products, right?

Originally Posted by thesinner

Proprietary blends are a joke (sinner hates proprietary blends). It withholds important information from the customer, and the likelyhood of them being patented is not very likely. The ones that say "patent pending"....yeah, they're not getting a patent.

I agree with you on that one. I don't deal with proprietary blends, I prefer patented blends.

The clinical testing is not for anything else but to know if the supplements you are taking are being absorbed and assimilated into the bloodstream where they are available to the cells.

Are your supplements creating any biological activity and if so, is it the corresponding biological activity related to that specific supplement?

How do you know that?
Have you done blood work?

There's no other way to know unless the company is proving you with the clinical tests I'm talking about.

Every company should have peer reviewed research on their products. The key word here is peer reviewed. That means it is unbiased, legitimate research vs. advertising research where you pay someone to publish your research in what looks like a legitimate journal. Otherwise, I'm taking a company's word for it that their stuff is being utilized efficiently by my body - I know I'm trustworthy but I don't know about these companies...

[dsade]

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

In Layman's Terms, that means:

To make up for the lack of funds a company has, they charge the consumer to make up for it by increasing the price of their products, right?

No. I would highly recommend you take some business and economics courses.

What I mean is that all costs are factored into the retail price, and adding an addition $20k WILL be factored into the price of the product you are trying to buy.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

In Layman's Terms, that means:

To make up for costs to fund such research, they pass the expenses consumer to make up for it by increasing the price of their products, right?

Fixed your post. And in order to make a profit (I'm sorry but without a profit, there's no point in selling a supplement), it has to be done this way.

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

I agree with you on that one. I don't deal with proprietary blends, I prefer patented blends.

What patented blends are you referring to? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Kre-alkalyn, and that's barely worth my dime: it's just Creatine Monohydrate with some buffering salts (to maintain a pH of 12). I really don't think this was as 'groundbreaking' as the creator convinced the patent offices it was. He just bridged off effervesent creatine (creatine + alka seltzer).

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

The clinical testing is not for anything else but to know if the supplements you are taking are being absorbed and assimilated into the bloodstream where they are available to the cells.

Probiotics aren't absorbed into the bloodstream. They aren't absorbed at all. (extreme case, of course)

Very rarely are studies done on whether or not the supplement is absorbed into the bloodstream because, quite frankly, no one really cares. If you look at products like HMB and glutamine, there's buttloads of research showing that they do get absorbed into the bloodstream, and into cells. There's also a buttload of research suggesting that all this is worth jack squat because clinical studies have seen very little evidence that they have any use for trained athletes.

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

Are your supplements creating any biological activity and if so, is it the corresponding biological activity related to that specific supplement?

How do you know that?
Have you done blood work?

There's no other way to know unless the company is proving you with the clinical tests I'm talking about.

Every company should have peer reviewed research on their products. The key word here is peer reviewed. That means it is unbiased, legitimate research vs. advertising research where you pay someone to publish your research in what looks like a legitimate journal. Otherwise, I'm taking a company's word for it that their stuff is being utilized efficiently by my body - I know I'm trustworthy but I don't know about these companies...

Is it illegal to cross-reference clinical studies utilizing the exact same compound through the exact same method of administration? Because that's what a lot of companies do. I agree, if you're going to cite data, you need proper citation. But most companies do that anyhow.

Next weeks lesson: What can be considered "Common Knowledge"

[dannyboy9]

Originally Posted by dsade

I would highly recommend you take some business and economics courses.

Unnecessary statement, regardless of whether it's true or not. Considering that I'm currently in college, I believe those courses will be taken in due time. I subtly requested to be spoken to in Layman's terms (regarding this matter anyway but you seemed to have missed my subtle request anyway) because as I mentioned: I'm here to learn. Thanks for pointing out the evident though, I appreciate it. I'm sure you meant well.

Originally Posted by dsade

What I mean is that all costs are factored into the retail price, and adding an addition $20k WILL be factored into the price of the product you are trying to buy.

Right...what did I say. Since the company lacks the funds to be able to do the clinical research on their own without having to compensate for it because they spend all their money on advertising and marketing *inhale/exhale*, then they pass the expense on to the customer. And what you said about "adding an addition $20k WILL be factored into the price of the product you are trying to buy".... I'm assuming you meant the fact that about $20k was spent to do such research is going to be factored into the final outcome of how much the prices will increase, correct?

You said exactly what I said but the way I put was in it's raw form. You decided to use business and economics terms.

I prefer you K.I.S.S. (I don't mean the "stupid" part)

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by dannyboy9

Unnecessary statement, regardless of whether it's true or not. Considering that I'm currently in college, I believe those courses will be taken in due time. I subtly requested to be spoken to in Layman's terms (regarding this matter anyway but you seemed to have missed my subtle request anyway) because as I mentioned: I'm here to learn. Thanks for pointing out the evident though, I appreciate it. I'm sure you meant well.

I'm sure dsade meant well. It's just that we're starting to delve into things that go past layman, and it gets hard to explain without him having to teach you complex business/economics principles. I'm sure once you've taken some courses, and whatnot, you'll see how the business world works (it's a crazy place).

[dannyboy9]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Probiotics aren't absorbed into the bloodstream. They aren't absorbed at all. (extreme case, of course)

But they would be more useful if they're actually utilized, correct? The bloodstream point was relating more so to supplements like vitamins, etc.

Originally Posted by thesinner

Very rarely are studies done on whether or not the supplement is absorbed into the bloodstream because, quite frankly, no one really cares.

Yeah, I know. Ignorance is bliss. Well, I care how my money is spent and I want to sure I get every dollars worth. What's the point of spending my money on something that is not going to be utilized/absorbed like they should therefore, not delivering the benefits I'm looking to get which is the main reason I'm buying the product in the first place.

If that was the case, I could just take placebo and I wouldn't be able to know if what I'm taking is doing me any good because heck, who cares? Without the clinical research, you're assuming what you're taking is working and with some things, you just can't "tell" if it's working. You would have to get blood work done or something along those lines - forget that.

I see what's going on though..Companies are just too lazy, too broke and too shady. It probably would also have a lot to do with the fact that the Legal Departments feel that the results would match up to their products. LOL Go figure. That was the case with Herbalife, I wouldn't be surprised if the case is similar with other companies.

[dannyboy9]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I'm sure dsade meant well. It's just that we're starting to delve into things that go past layman, and it gets hard to explain without him having to teach you complex business/economics principles. I'm sure once you've taken some courses, and whatnot, you'll see how the business world works (it's a crazy place).

Oh no, I'm most definitely going to assume he did. I rather do that than assume he didn't and turn this into a 9 year old bickering match as it does on other boards (let's not mention any names )

I appreciate all you folk's patience though, sincerely, I do. Thanks for sticking with me this long and allowing me to get a clearer picture of how things work on this side of the industry!