SOY Protein... Helpful or Harmful???
- 08-10-2007, 02:19 PM
SOY Protein... Helpful or Harmful???
I'm 5'10" 179 lbs. I'm finding it very difficult to put on good quality muscle. I am in the Navy and (unfortunately) deployed right now.
Good quality protein is hard to come by in my choices of food while floating around out here in the middle of the south Pacific.
I am horribly lactose intolerant and Whey protein will put in out of commission for at least a day. Even the ones that claim to be lactose free have caused me problems in the past.
I ordered some "Soy Pro" Protein. It took about 5 weeks to get to me but at least I have something to try out. I'm consuming about 160 gr. (or more) on my training days. What I'm really wondering is, whether or not Soy Proteins can cause any extra, unwanted estrogen production. There have been a number of studies suggesting that certain compounds in Soy products can raise estrogen levels.
Does anyone have any comments on this? I've heard that Protein supplements derived from Egg proteins are available, but despite my searching, I haven't come across any...
Any and all comments or opinions are greatly appreciated...!!!
- 08-10-2007, 02:24 PM
I've read that soy protein isolate is ok, but all other forms of soy with the exception of fermented products are to be avoided.
08-10-2007, 02:32 PM
I use Soy and it works pretty well. Soy and whey both have extremely fast digestion rates. If you use soy to supplement there is no problem with the estrogen. If your looking at getting 90% or so of your protein from soy shakes then it'll be a problem.
I usually have 2-3 soy shakes a day (usually 2) then get the rest of my protein from food. Good luck.
08-10-2007, 02:32 PM
08-10-2007, 02:45 PM
08-10-2007, 02:48 PM
Here is an article
A little over a year ago, soy protein was the talk of the town. It was invited to all the parties, and it was even rumored to be having a little romantic fling with Jennifer Aniston from Friends (before she married Brad Pitt).
Likewise, the general media was touting it to be the best thing since sliced bread, or was that 100% stone ground wheat bread? Oh well. Anyhow, since the government gave soy a "thumbs up" to the public, stating that, "25 grams of soy protein per day, as part of a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may reduce the risk of heart disease," people began to think that it was indeed the best protein around. After all, it was relatively high in quality, cheap, and healthy! What else could you want?
And to boot, a few studies arose from the muck to indicate that this protein may enhance anabolic hormone levels and may increase thyroid hormone levels while dieting. Sounds soooo good. Right? Well, after a good amount of both scientific and "real world" evidence has surfaced, it turns out that soy may not be so good after all. Especially for the male bodybuilder.
Sounds all too familiar to me. Reminds me of the evil-painted women that I and other hapless men have encountered in the past. Sure, she's beautiful, classy, smart, loaded, and best of all, horny! Nothing could be better in life. That is, until you start to discover that your wallet's missing 200 bucks and it now burns when you take a pee.
Ouch! Sounds pretty harsh, eh? Well, even so, this still isn't even close to what soy has done to us. I'll let you in on all of the evil and destructive things that soy can do to you, should you decide to consume it. Sadly though, we must be careful, as many companies are still adding this vile crud into protein formulas, bars, and meal replacements. Hopefully, after you hear what I have to say, you realize that soy shouldn't be consumed by male bodybuilders. Not even your worst enemy deserves the horrid effects that soy is capable of producing. Okay, enough rambling, let's get to it.
First though, before we begin, I just want to go over some quick review material, just to make sure we're all on the same page. The reason why soy is so bad basically boils down to the isoflavones that it contains. Two of these isoflavones, genistein and daidzein, are what cause the majority of negative effects seen with soy protein use.
These two villains bind readily to Estrogen Receptors. One such receptor is the Alpha receptor and the other, of course, is the Beta receptor. The Alpha receptor is the one generally associated with breast tumors, increased body fat, water retention, etc. The Beta receptor really isn't something to worry about. Anyhow, genistein and daidzein can bind rather well to the Alpha receptor.
No big deal right? Well, it might actually be somewhat beneficial if they didn't activate transcription to any significant degree, as this would be what's considered an anti-estrogenic action. In other words, it would be good if the compound binded to the site and didn't cause any growth, while preventing any naturally-produced estrogen from binding (the estrogen "parking spots" would already be filled). However, genistein does activate transcription to a significant degree after binding to the Alpha receptor and therefore will cause growth of tissues.(1,2,3)
Two of America's Most Wanted
Unfortunately, the two soy isoflavones that I mentioned previously can have numerous adverse effects on everything ranging from Testosterone production, thyroid production, muscle growth, and even health.
Let's consider soy's affects on T production first. The ability of soy protein to decrease Testosterone levels has been well demonstrated. One study displayed a 76% reduction of Testosterone production in men, after ingestion of soy protein over a brief period of time.(4) In yet another study, an inverse association was found between soy protein intake and Testosterone levels in Japanese men.(5)
Finally, in yet another study, using healthy adult males, a diet containing soy was compared to a diet that consisted of meat protein in terms of sex hormone concentrations. Well, after evaluation, Testosterone levels were significantly lower in the soy diet. Not only this, but the estimated amount of free Testosterone was 7% lower after the soy diet as well.(6)
Hey, mice didn't fare much better. Testosterone and LH were also lowered in mice consuming only the isoflavone genistein.(7)
The evidence seems pretty conclusive. There may, of course, be other factors, but it's enough to give one pause when considering whether or not he should add some soy to his next protein drink.
IGF, Thyroid, and the Girly Hormones
It's fairly clear that soy protein lowers testosterone levels. How does it affect estrogen and progesterone levels? You'd figure that genistein would at least reduce the activity of estrogen to some extent, since it binds at the same receptor site, right? Well, apparently not. It turns out that genistein does not inhibit the effects of estradiol and in fact has been demonstrated to exert an additive effect when combined with estradiol.(2,8)
This means that they don't interfere with one another and can both exert the same negative effects at the same time, thus, packing a double punch. Furthermore, genistein may potentially increase estradiol levels as well. It's thought that this may occur because genistein may deconjugate estrone in the gut and allow for it to reabsorb into the bloostream and convert to estradiol.(9)
It's possible that it may also exert some progestational activity.(10) Even worse is that the estrogenic activity of these phytoestrogens may have been underestimated in the past, as there is evidence that they may be much more potent in vivo as opposed to in vitro [test tube] studies.(11) Oh, and while we're still on the topic or hormones, soy protein has also been shown to decrease IGF-1 concentrations in male rats.(12) Oh, and I'd feel bad if I forgot to mention that it can lower T4 levels, too.(13)
Protecting Our Future
While planting a seed definitely isn't an immediate goal of mine, I'm sure there are plenty of guys out there who wish to pass on their superior genes. So, for these men, I urge you to not let your child or pregnant wife consume any products that contain soy. While there isn't concrete evidence as of yet, there's still enough to warrant some caution.
For instance, when female rats were fed genistein while pregnant, their pups weighed significantly less than the groups that weren't fed genistein.(14) Also, when young rats were given genistein, spermatogenesis decreased, as did body weight, testicle size, and possibly the urge to mate. Another study found similar results.(15,16)
Oh, and before I forget, genistein has been shown to cause testicular cells to die, in vitro at least.(17)
Healthy? I Think Not
The main reason why the government decided to "sponsor" soy protein was because it can supposedly reduce the risk of heart disease. However, the funny, or scary, thing is that soy has actually been shown to decrease HDL cholesterol.(18,19) HDL cholesterol is the good kind.
Furthermore, it's possible that the isoflavones can induce growth and malignancy of the prostate. This is because the ER Alpha is thought to be at least partially responsible for the induction of growth. So, in theory, since genistein can agonize the ER Alpha in much the same way as estradiol, then it could cause growth of the prostate.(20)
Okay, So What About my Muscles?
Okay, now let's move on to the important stuff. How good is soy protein in terms of increasing muscle growth? Well, when compared to casein, it was beaten in terms of both protein synthesis and breakdown.(21) So, we know that it can't match proteins like casein or whey. What else? Well, even though this might make you cringe, I feel obligated to tell you. Get this, genistein was shown to inhibit myoblast proliferation and fusion in a dose-dependent manner!
It decreased protein synthesis and inhibited protein accretion as a result. These results occurred even at the lowest dose. The authors concluded that if animals consume enough soy, those concentrations of genistein could potentially affect normal muscle growth and development.(22)
Now that's some frightening stuff! Okay, so things couldn't get any worse for soy, right? Well not only may it interfere with muscle growth, but it may screw with your pro-hormone usage. Why is that? Well, genistein may interfere with the conversion of 4-androstenediol to Testosterone, thus, reducing the effectiveness of your favorite supplement to a good degree! This happens because it interferes with the enzyme 3 Beta-HSD.(23)
Boy, I wish it were the end, but the fact is that many companies, with the encouragement of the government, will continue to add soy protein to their products. However, like many of us fringe-element weight lifters have for so many years, we'll stand by and endure while the rest of the world makes a big mistake.
The next thing you know, there will be a big story about how truly harmful this stuff is to the male. Hopefully it won't be too late. But hey, maybe I'm being a bit hypercritical here. I mean, who knows, this may actually be a good supplement for the average woman. They seem to think they need more estrogen and less muscle, so more power to 'em.
For those T-Vixens, however, stay away from it! Especially while pregnant. Anyhow, my advice for you would be to read every food and supplement label that you have to make sure that there isn't any soy within the product. I mean, hey, you'll be checking the macronutrient profile anyhow, so just skim on down to the ingredients from now on. Be careful, you'd be surprised by how many items have been tainted. For now, good luck and keep your eyes peeled.
1.Breinholt V, et al. "Estrogenic activity of flavonoids in mice. The importance of estrogen receptor distribution, metabolism and bioavailability." Food Chem Toxicol 2000 Jul;38(7):555-64
2.Casanova M, et al. "Developmental effects of dietary phytoestrogens in Sprague-Dawley rats and interactions of genistein and daidzein with rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro." Toxicol Sci 1999 Oct;51(2):236-44
3.Stahl S, et al. "Phytoestrogens act as estrogen agonists in an estrogen-responsive pituitary cell line." Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1998 Sep;152(1):41-8
4.Zhong, et al. "Effects of dietary supplement of soy protein isolate and low fat diet on prostate cancer." FASEB J 2000;14(4):a531.11
5.Nagata C, et al. "Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men." Nutr Cancer 2000;36(1):14-8.
6.Habito RC, et al. "Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the diet on sex hormone concentrations in healthy adult males." Br J Nutr 2000 Oct;84(4):557-63
7.Strauss L, et al. "Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract." Mol Cell Endocrinol 1998 Sep 25;144(1-2):83-93
8.Santell RC, et al. "Dietary genistein exerts estrogenic effects upon the uterus, mammary gland and the hypothalamic/pituitary axis in rats." J Nutr 1997 Feb;127(2):263-9
9.Harrison RM, et al. "Effect of genistein on steroid hormone production in the pregnant rhesus monkey." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1999 Oct;222(1):78-84
10.Zand RS, et al. "Steroid hormone activity of flavonoids and related compounds." Breast Cancer Res Treat 2000 Jul;62(1):35-49
11.Nagel SC, et al. "The effective free fraction of estradiol and xenoestrogens in human serum measured by whole cell uptake assays: physiology of delivery modifies estrogenic activity." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1998 Mar;217(3):300-9
12.Aukema HM, Housini I. "Dietary soy protein effects on disease and IGF-1 in male and female Han:SPDR-cy rats." Kidney Int 2001 Jan;59(1):52-61
13.Klein M, et al. "Energy metabolism and thyroid hormone levels of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins?soy or casein." Arch Tierernahr 2000;53(2):99-125.
14.Flynn KM, et al. "Effects of genistein exposure on sexually dimorphic behaviors in rats." Toxicol Sci 2000 Jun;55(2):311-9
15.Atanassova N, et al. "Comparative effects of neonatal exposure of male rats to potent and weak (environmental) estrogens on spermatogenesis at puberty and the relationship to adult testis size and fertility: evidence for stimulatory effects of low estrogen levels." Endocrinology 2000 Oct;141(10):3898-907
16.Whitten PL, et al. "Phytoestrogen influences on the development of behavior and gonadotropin function." Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 1995 Jan;208(1):82-6
17.Kumi-Diaka J, et al. "Cytotoxic potential of the phytochemical genistein isoflavone (4',5',7-trihydroxyisoflavone) and certain environmental chemical compounds on testicular cells." Biol Cell 1999 Sep;91(7):515-23
18.Ashton E, Ball M. "Effects of soy as tofu vs meat on lipoprotein concentrations." Eur J Clin Nutr 2000 Jan;54(1):14-9
19.Madani S, et al. "Dietary protein level and origin (casein and highly purified soybean protein) affect hepatic storage, plasma lipid transport, and antioxidative defense status in the rat." Nutrition 2000 May;16(5):368-75.
20.Risbridger G, et al. "Evidence that epithelial and mesenchymal estrogen receptor-alpha mediates effects of estrogen on prostatic epithelium." Dev Biol 2001 Jan 15;229(2):432-442
21.Schadereit R, et al. "Whole body protein turnover of growing rats in response to different dietary proteins?soy protein or casein." Arch Tierernahr 1999;52(4):311-21
22.Ji S, et al. "Soybean isoflavones, genistein and genistin, inhibit rat myoblast proliferation, fusion and myotube protein synthesis." J Nutr 1999 Jul;129(7):1291-7
23.Keung WM. "Dietary estrogenic isoflavones are potent inhibitors of beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase of P. testosteronii." Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1995 Oct 24;215(3):1137-44
08-10-2007, 02:49 PM
08-10-2007, 02:53 PM
Yes I am asian, and no matter what the 'whey protein' says I'll get GI disorder instantly. I use soy protein and egg protein.
08-10-2007, 02:56 PM
08-10-2007, 03:01 PM
08-10-2007, 03:03 PM
08-10-2007, 03:04 PM
Oh my dear God! I was sort of hoping for a, "yeah soy is okay, you'll be fine" answer... Maybe I should stop using that sh*t. Thanks for the info.
Reaper, where are you finding the egg protein... Just like you said, Whey screws me up too....hardcore. I'd rather poison myself that drink a whey shake.
08-10-2007, 03:08 PM
A good egg protein is Optimum Nutrition 100% Egg Protein. It has the aminogen blend so your getting all the amino acids you need. It took me awhile to find that one. THe only problem is they sell them in 2lb bottles, so your gonna want to stock up on it. Check around on website.
08-10-2007, 03:10 PM
08-10-2007, 03:13 PM
I was taking NxLab's Nitro T3 natural test booster, and I wasn't sure if it was really working. I half expected to 'feel' something a little different. Well, we were extended another 2 weeks out here, and low and behold, I ran out... figures huh? Well, at the say time I was drinking those (possibly evil) Soy shakes. Since I've run out of T3, it almost seems like my muscles aren't as hard and I don't have quite the same motivation in the gym. I'm starting to wonder if the T3 made that much difference or if it's just that is counteracted some of the hormonal effects of the soy and now I'm turning into a b*tch... Oh dear God...
Now I'm starting to wonder (if I hadn't heard about this early and continue to take the soy protein) if it would have a negative effect on the Chlorodrol-50 cycle I'm planning to start next month...
08-10-2007, 03:16 PM
I'm not really sure about soy in general. I use it with egg protein, because any protein is better than no protein (IMO). I've also tried a series of natural test boosters. I've found them to be 'supportive' in the background in bodybuilding, but they won't put on 30lbs or something ridiculous like a PH/PS. If anything they just support bodybuilding growth, kinda like a multivitamin.
08-10-2007, 03:18 PM
I don't also know how soy would be affected by Chlorodrol-50 but I'm willing to guess there wouldn't be a problem. If I were you, I'd just order some egg protein and put off the Chlorodrol-50 till you get it.
If you run a PS/PH and your not getting adequate protein, your selling your gains short, not to mention risking your health in the process. If you put up potential health risks, you might as well get the most out of it.
08-10-2007, 03:26 PM
Thanks for the info on the protein Reaper... I'll look into that immediately...
I'll be getting the Chlorodrol in the mail in about 12 days or so... I'm not sure if I want to start my cycle that soon though. 7 months at sea tends to make you want to drink for a week or two while on leave. I don't imagine my sailor's thirst for booze and Chlorodrol would make my liver very happy. I could wait for the egg protein to come in or just bite the bullet and pay the steeper price at GNC. Even in home port, I expect at least 15 days for my mail. At least theres a GNC on the base.
xjsynx...Goat Whey? Are you serious... Maybe you're laughing at me right now, but I'll look it up... LMAO
Sounds like something Trips or Sinner would be interesting in...the goats, not necessarily the whey...
08-10-2007, 03:27 PM
New research out gentlemen. Soy protein works just fine.
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones
Douglas Kalman , Samantha Feldman , Michele Martinez , Diane R Krieger and Mark J Tallon
Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2007, 4:4 doi:10.1186/1550-2783-4-4
Published 23 July 2007
Evidence suggests an inverse relationship between soy protein intake and serum concentrations of male sex hormones. Anecdotal evidence indicates that these alterations in serum sex hormones may attenuate changes in lean body mass following resistance training. However, little empirical data exists regarding the effects of soy and milk-based proteins on circulating androgens and exercise induced body composition changes.
For 12 weeks 20 subjects were supplemented with 50 g per day of one of four different protein sources (Soy concentrate; Soy isolate; Soy isolate and whey blend, and Whey blend only) in combination with a resistance-training program. Body composition, testosterone, estradiol and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) were measured at baseline and week 12.
Protein supplementation resulted in a significant increase in lean body mass independent of protein source (0.5 1.1 and 0.9 1.4 kg, p = 0.006, p = 0.007). No significant differences were observed between groups for total and free testosterone, SHBG, percentage body fat, BMI or body weight. The Testosterone/Estradiol ratio increased across all groups (+13.4, p = 0.005) and estradiol decreased (p = 0.002). Within group analysis showed significant increases in the Testosterone/Estradiol ratio in soy isolate + whey blend group (+ 16.3, p = 0.030). Estradiol was significantly lower in the whey blend group (- 9.1 8.7 pg/ml, p = 0.033).
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
08-10-2007, 03:31 PM
I am assuming you are aware that chlorodrol-50 is an oral steroid correct ? You also need to use a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). Drinking and using it is a bad idea in my opinion.
08-10-2007, 03:34 PM
There's plenty yet that you didn't know about soy!
Soy contains several naturally occurring compounds that are toxic to humans and animals. The soy industry frequently refers to these toxins as anti-nutrients, which implies that they somehow act to prevent the body getting the complete nutrition it needs from a food. The soy toxins (such as phytic acid) can certainly act in this manner, but they also have the ability to target specific organs, cells and enzyme pathways and their effects can be devastating.
The soy toxins that Soy Online Service have concerns about are protease inhibitors, phytic acid, soy lectins (or haemagglutins), nitrosamines, manganese concentrations and the mysterious soyatoxin. Nitrosamines are not naturally occurring in soybeans but form during the processing of products such as isolated soy protein (ISP).
As with any toxin there will be a dose at which negative effects are not observed. Soy Online Services have examined the scientific data on the soy toxins and have uncovered several alarming truths:
There is no legislation to protect consumers from soy toxins in raw soy products.
With the possible exception of soy lecithin, all soy products, no matter how well treated, contain low to moderate levels of soy toxins; processing cannot remove them all of any of them.
The soy industry has little in the way of quality control to protect consumers from exposure to inadequately treated soy products.
Perhaps the best known of the soy toxins are the protease inhibitors (also referred to as trypsin inhibitors) which, as the name suggests, are able to inhibit the action of proteases (including trypsin) which are enzymes that are involved in the process of dismantling proteins for use by the body.
In the rat, high levels of exposure to protease inhibitors (such as that found in raw soy flour) cause pancreatic cancer whereas moderate levels cause the rat pancreas to be more susceptible to cancer-causing agents. The validity of the rat model to humans has been questioned and the USFDA have examined the effects of protease inhibitors on the Cebus monkey (JP Harwood et al., Adv Exp Med Biol 1986 199: 223-37).
The parameters of the Cebus Monkey study were as follows:
Group Number of monkeys Dietary Protein Trypsin Inhibitor (mg/g of diet)
1 8 Lactalbumin 0.12
2 10 Soy Isolate 0.54
3 6 Casein 0.08
4 2 Soy Concentrate 2.41
After five years of chronic ingestion to low levels of trypsin inhibitors, there was no discernible pancreatic damage effect in monkeys from groups 1-3. However, one monkey in group 4 exhibited moderate diffuse acinar atrophy, moderate diffuse interstitial fibrosis and moderate chronic pancreatitis in all three sections of tissue examined. Minimal lymphoid hyperplasia was noted in the other group 4 monkey.
Therefore, there is good reason to question claims that low levels of soy protease inhibitors pose no threat to human health. Such a statement has even been made by the USFDA in response to a health claim petition by Protein Technologies. The USFDA reported that:
'Concerns have been raised in the past about exposure to trypsin inhibitors contained in soybeans because these compounds had been found to stimulate pancreatic hyperplasia and hypertrophy in animals. These concerns have been allayed because heat treatment removes most of the activity of these proteases. In addition, recent studies have questioned the applicability of the animal models, which differ from humans in the type of diet, sensitivity of the pancreas to trypsin inhibitors, and the anatomic sites of pancreatic cell proliferation and have found low rates of cancer in populations with dietary patterns that include soy foods' (FR 63, 217:62977-63015, 1998).
This statement brought an angry response from Professor Irvin Leiner, the foremost expert on protease inhibitors. In his reply to the FDA Liener wrote:
'"The impression one gets from reading this section is that that there is little cause for concern as far as the human exposure to soybean trypsin inhibitors is concerned.... In the interests of a balanced treatment of the subject, I trust you will give due consideration to the opposing view that the soybean trypsin inhibitors do in fact pose a potential risk to humans when soy protein is incorporated into the diet."
So, if there is valid concern about low levels of protease inhibitors in soy foods, what about exposures to levels higher higher than those in the Cebus monkey study? Is there any chance that such exposures could occur in human diets?
Soy Online Service has noted that there is considerable variability in the levels of protease inhibitors in commercially available foods and that there is little to protect consumers from exposure to high levels of protease inhibitors. For example, a study entitled 'Trypsin inhibitor levels in soy-based infant formulas and commercial soy protein isolates and concentrates (RW Peace et al., 1992, Food Res Int, 25: 137-141) found that trypsin inhibitor levels were as high as 2.72 mg/g in ready to feed soy formulas and 7.30 mg/g in soy protein concentrate.
Since there is no established acceptable levels of protease inhibitors in foods and no protection from short-term high level (acute) exposures or long term low level (chronic) exposures, Soy Online Service offer the following advice:
Don't feed your baby or infant a soy formula; there are alternatives!
Avoid the direct consumption of raw or partially processed soy products such as soy flour or soy protein concentrate. Traditionally fermented soy foods are relatively free of protease inhibitors.
When preparing your own soy foods, such as boiled or roasted soybeans or soy milk, ensure that they are adequately heated. The traditional Chinese method for preparing soybeans was a time consuming job that was left to monks. It involved soaking the beans first and then boiling them twice over 'the full length of an incense'.
08-10-2007, 03:43 PM
I got my hands on a decent SERM too... 30 tablets/10mg Nolvadex (tamixofen citrate). That should be coming in the mail soon as well...
gdbear65: Damn...that's a lot to absorb...
08-10-2007, 03:45 PM
08-10-2007, 03:57 PM
Goatein' in Whole Foods and a few other organic food stores. It is expensive though.
If you are looking for egg protein, I would suggest trueprotein.com
You can make your own blends, add flavors, etc. Also ordering in bulk reduces the price. Look around this site or the net and you can find 5% off coupon codes.
08-10-2007, 03:59 PM
08-10-2007, 04:02 PM
08-10-2007, 04:06 PM
08-10-2007, 04:08 PM
...any one else want to comment on this one...?
Reaper...? Any ideas...
08-10-2007, 04:21 PM
You are correct in Halodrol being a mild compound. IMO it is a very good combination all around in terms of solid gains/side effects. Typically the Nolva dosing is as follows
I don't know how you plan to take Chlorodrol-50 (I'm guessing 50mg/ED) which again is mild, you are correct. People suggest following the 40,40,20,20 protocol b/c it is tried and true, and it works. Is it an overkill ? Maybe in this case. Would it be more applicable for something like Superdrol or Phera-Plex ? Definitly. We are saying to run that dosaging b/c it works, and it is effective. It is better to be safe than sorry.
08-10-2007, 04:26 PM
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