[gdbear65]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

This article uses other studies to form a hypothesis without doing any direct experimental analysis on it. It is not a complete or conclusive study as per Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention that the statement As discussed in the Window of Opportunity, these factors make dextrose and maltodextrin the perfect post workout combo Is hardly objective.

It's an analysis, not a study, if you disagree with it's conclusions, feel free to refute them. As you well know, very few studies are done specifically on nutrition for bodybuilding, so direct experimental analysis may never be done.

[bitterplacebo]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

The highest insulin spikes are achieved with straight carbs. 500cals dextrose will create a higher spike than 250cals dextrose + 250cals protein. The total calories have to be the same or you are comparing apples to oranges.

Show me your sources and I'll show you mine?
Not sure if you actually have anything specific in mind, but yeah I can accept the logic that you have to compare equal caloric amounts.

I was relying on information from the books authored by some Scivation people.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs...ylecutdiet.pdf
page 13
or CUT DIET.COM also has some stuff

but it does look like they are comparing the situation of, say,
500 carbohydrate calories vs. 500 carbs + 250 protein.

Originally Posted by Nitrox

That would be too easy.

Theoretically, as a diabetic, if I eat WMS I should then not have to take my insulin for it? I wouldn't bet on it. I will have to waste some money and try it out.

Here's another good thread with some PWO nutrition discussion: Waxy Maize Starch Craze

WMS does seem to be the easy way out of this mess of contradictions. I've been reading more about it due to this thread, and I just wasted some money to try it out. I'm coming off of a 11 week cut diet, so I've been pretty well depleted, so I'm going to see about it's filling out abilities.

Edit:
After reading some of the WMS thread (Bobo's a cool fellow), I thought I'd clarify what I intend to use WMS for. I'm not really concerned with replenishing glycogen stores quickly after workouts, but I thought it might be a good idea to use WMS only in the morning before my workouts to try to make sure I'm all fueled up and ready to work hard.

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by bitterplacebo

I don't think anyone is trying to lie in this thread. There's so much contradicting evidence to be found out there and it's difficult to find the best answer. The experience of discussion is rewarding enough for me, regardless of whether my suggestions are taken.

Very good point.

There is a lot of conflicting info out there and that is one reason why I've been commenting on the validity of some articles/studies. I see a trend of articles published that seemed to be geared towards selling supps or for making a name for the author that are wrapped up in an analytical packaging in an attempt to add credibility. Identifying these and weighing their actual value is helpful to cut through a lot of the BS; I'm not trying to be argumentative.

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by bitterplacebo

Show me your sources and I'll show you mine?
Not sure if you actually have anything specific in mind, but yeah I can accept the logic that you have to compare equal caloric amounts.

The fact that of the 3 common macros, carbs require the most amount of insulin to metabolize is widely accepted. I'll see what I can dig up to support it that isnt a simple paragraph in a diabetes management text.

Alternatively I could measure blood glucose increases with different macro combos but Im not up for turning my fingers into pincushions just yet.

I think some of the arguments could be resolved if the definition of a 'spike' is cleared up. What we really referring to is a pointed portion of a continuous curve or graph, usually rising above the adjacent portion. This does not really tell us anything quantitative about the levels just that it is a localized high point.

Insulin regulates nutrient (hence energy) uptake. The higher the insulin the higher the rate of uptake. Since there is only so much glycogen storage available and muscle can only be built so fast wheras fat storage is relatively unlimited. Yes, the higher the insulin the higher the percentage of energy that will stored as fat. So a 'spike' could be both good or bad depending on the actual level generated.

[MentalTwitch]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

Sorry to harp on the credibility of your guys' studies...

This article draws a conclusion based on the words 'should' and 'may'. Well do they or don't they? If they don't know then the study is inconclusive.

This guy is good....
All arguing aside, this thread def has some good insight and info links. Goes to show all the different ways people eat PWO and how they attack the replenishing of the muscles.

[bitterplacebo]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

The fact that of the 3 common macros, carbs require the most amount of insulin to metabolize is widely accepted. I'll see what I can dig up to support it that isnt a simple paragraph in a diabetes management text.

Alternatively I could measure blood glucose increases with different macro combos but Im not up for turning my fingers into pincushions just yet.

I think some of the arguments could be resolved if the definition of a 'spike' is cleared up. What we really referring to is a pointed portion of a continuous curve or graph, usually rising above the adjacent portion. This does not really tell us anything quantitative about the levels just that it is a localized high point.

Insulin regulates nutrient (hence energy) uptake. The higher the insulin the higher the rate of uptake. Since there is only so much glycogen storage available and muscle can only be built so fast wheras fat storage is relatively unlimited. Yes, the higher the insulin the higher the percentage of energy that will stored as fat. So a 'spike' could be both good or bad depending on the actual level generated.

No need to put yourself through the trouble of bleeding yourself on this one. I'd say most would agree that carbs require the most insulin response. But most people tend to go heavy on compounding their post-workout carbs with protein, which would only elicit a greater insulin response, no? They don't say to themselves->since I'm adding in protein, I better take away some carbs to compensate because I don't want a large insulin spike in the presence of overabundant calories.

Another view that was brought up is that the goal of post-workout nutrition is protein synthesis, not so much in glycogen replenishment. I'd agree, but the next point was that a large insulin spike stimulates protein synthesis. I would say a better stimulus for protein synthesis is simply the presence of amino acids in the blood plasma, which you can get consuming just protein.

[bitterplacebo]

Originally Posted by MentalTwitch

This guy is good....
All arguing aside, this thread def has some good insight and info links. Goes to show all the different ways people eat PWO and how they attack the replenishing of the muscles.

I concur that words like 'probably,' 'should,' or 'may' when used in a study don't convince me to base my actions around the conclusions that were found.

Yeah, forums like this are much more essential than reading studies alone. I know I'm tired of seeing some new supplement make some extraordinary claims, backed by some evidence or research study just to make it seem legit.

It might be better just to rely on people's personal experience. They can tell you what practices or methods they followed, and the results that they saw. Usually you won't hear--"I think I got fat from doing this," or "I think I gained x lean pounds doing that." We can be extremely perceptive about ourselves, and have access to decent ways to accurately measure weight and bodyfat. However, even then, everyone can react uniquely to different diet and exercise practices.

But for what it's worth, I'll restate my experience with using maltodextrin vs. using rice (if I remember right) for postworkout carbs. There was no big difference in ability to gain mass. I did use both methods each consistently for at least 6-8 weeks. And I believe the carbs for each meal was around the same of 70-85 grams. Amount of protein was also approximately 40-60 grams for each method. I don't think I used any additional fat beyond what was in the carb & protein sources. Only deviation was in how I felt after the meal. With the maltodextrin I had a semi-crash sometime afterwards, and with the rice I just felt full and lazy for a while. Think that covers it all, don't ask if my workout intensity/difficulty differed at all or I might be offended.

[DriverDan]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

Sorry to harp on the credibility of your guys' studies...

This article draws a conclusion based on the words 'should' and 'may'. Well do they or don't they? If they don't know then the study is inconclusive.

That wasn't a study, it was a review. You're right that he's not very conclusive. I recommend reading the studies he cites.

[gdbear65]

Originally Posted by DougMan

0 benefit + increased risk = unnecessary risk.

I have read that spiking insulin PWO has many benefits:

increases glucose uptake and glycogen production in the muscles

increases amino acids transport to muscles

increases protein synthesis

increases blood flow to skeletal muscles (vasodilation)

decreases protein degradation

decreases cortisol levels

Is this incorrect?

I have also heard that raising insulin levels shuts down GH production?

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by gdbear65

I have read that spiking insulin PWO has many benefits:

increases glucose uptake and glycogen production in the muscles

increases amino acids transport to muscles

increases protein synthesis

increases blood flow to skeletal muscles (vasodilation)

decreases protein degradation

decreases cortisol levels

Is this incorrect?

I have also heard that raising insulin levels shuts down GH production?

I don't know about the GH part but the rest is more or less correct. However you have left out an important piece of information. Elevated insulin levels will accomplish that anytime, not just PWO. So ask yourself why are we being told that this is only important PWO? Do muscles grow only during this Golden hour? No of course not.

IMO all this focus on insulin is doing more harm than good. Insulin is basically a catalyst for energy uptake that is essentially triggered by energy intake. PWO nutrition should focus more on replenishing energy deficits created through activity and less on achieving peak insulin levels. Sure they are related but they are not the same.

[gdbear65]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

I don't know about the GH part but the rest is more or less correct. However you have left out an important piece of information. Elevated insulin levels will accomplish that anytime, not just PWO. So ask yourself why are we being told that this is only important PWO? Do muscles grow only during this Golden hour? No of course not.

IMO all this focus on insulin is doing more harm than good. Insulin is basically a catalyst for energy uptake that is essentially triggered by energy intake. PWO nutrition should focus more on replenishing energy deficits created through activity and less on achieving peak insulin levels. Sure they are related but they are not the same.

Thanks.

I have since read a couple of studies, using rats, showing that raising insulin levels progressively shuts down GH production.

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

[bitterplacebo]

Originally Posted by gdbear65

Thanks.

I have since read a couple of studies, using rats, showing that raising insulin levels progressively shuts down GH production.

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

There could be alternatives that also reduce cortisol. BCAA supplementation will help, also an anti-cortisol product can do that without the risks associated with insulin manipulation.

Also just saw something that found BCAA supplementation compounded with exercise has a positive effect on HGH levels.

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by gdbear65

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

Yes and that is what replacing the energy and, I forgot to include, supplying adequate protein do. If your body does not have an outside source of energy and nitrogen to fuel repair and recovery it will breakdown existing stores (glycogen, muscle, and/or fat) to obtain it. Energy and protein replacement is the net result that is needed, elevated insulin is just the mechanism that facilitates it. Focusing on arbitrary insulin levels (have you ever read any recommendations on exactly what insulin level you should be aiming for?) is just not looking at the big picture.

[gdbear65]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

(have you ever read any recommendations on exactly what insulin level you should be aiming for?)

That's my next question

[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by DriverDan

Looks like I'm going to have to cite my favorite article on PWO nutrition.

Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

ABSTRACT
Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have shown that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic carbohydrates greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic carbohydrates only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by hyperaminoacidaemia induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, consumption of post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remain to be determined.

The goal of PWO carbs shouldn't be to restore glycogen. The goal should be to shuttle amino acids to the muscle to increase protein synthesis. Glycogen will replenish just fine if you're eating enough carbs in your regular diet.

Here's what the author of that review fails to point out: ALL data in support of fast-acting substrates postworkout were done on glycogen-depleted subjects who trained after an overn