Maltodextrin

[dynomite]

I was originally under the impression that maltodextrin was high on the glycemic index. Then i hear it being refered to as a complex carb. I am a little confused on this. does anyone have any input to ease my confusion?

 

[s.norman]

no, its definitely high glycemic 100 same as dextrose. will make you fat for sure.

 

[dynomite]

thats what i thought as well. would it be helpful for those that still believe n the postworkout insulin spike? does it spike insulin like dextrose does?

 

[Iron Warrior]

Just because a carb is marketed as being complex doesn't mean it won't be a high glycemic carb

The insulin spike you get from it is not worth storing additional fat, take it from an endomorph like me

 

[TheCrownedOne]

It is structurally a complex carb. However, it acts as a very simple carb in your body.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Maltodextrin will cause a spike in insulin levels.

If you're a competitive/performance athlete or just bulking and not worried about possible excess fat storage from this, then it could be a worthwhile addition.

If you're working out for any other reason, the insulin spike isn't necessary.

 

[dynomite]

well i think an insulin spike for me would be beneficial. I mean i am sure i spike my insulin levels needlessly at other points in the day. If i drink a soda BAM, insulin spike. If i eat a little candy BAM again. so basically why would i use low glycemic carbs postworkout if i am spiking my insulin at other times. i am gonna give it a try.

 

[bitterplacebo]

well i think an insulin spike for me would be beneficial. I mean i am sure i spike my insulin levels needlessly at other points in the day. If i drink a soda BAM, insulin spike. If i eat a little candy BAM again. so basically why would i use low glycemic carbs postworkout if i am spiking my insulin at other times. i am gonna give it a try.

I'm not sure that your reasoning is sound here. If your are needlessly spiking insulin levels at other times of the day, it doesn't mean that one more will be alright. Frequent and long term bouncing of your insulin levels might mean the onset of diabetes later in life. And if you know that these activities are needless, why keep them part of your habits?

I'm not trying to judge anyone's lifestyle. But for every person I see that can get away with eating junk food, there's another that would benefit greatly from changing their habits. I'd rather not mislead this later group into something that will do more harm than good. I honestly hope you take care with how you play with insulin.

 

[Nitrox]

well i think an insulin spike for me would be beneficial.

Are you trying to get fat? Cause that's about all that spiking insulin levels are good for.

Post workout, your cells are hungry and require less insulin for nutrient uptake. Overcompensating with extra large servings of carbs or by using high GI carbs will just increase the potential for fat gain.

Focus on energy replacement not on what your insulin is doing.

 

[SteelEntity]

Are you trying to get fat? Cause that's about all that spiking insulin levels are good for.

Post workout, your cells are hungry and require less insulin for nutrient uptake. Overcompensating with extra large servings of carbs or by using high GI carbs will just increase the potential for fat gain.

Focus on energy replacement not on what your insulin is doing.

Maltodextrin is extremely important as a post workout supplement. When you workout you deplete your muscle glycogen stores. Glycogen is the main fuel muscles use for energy, so optimizing glycogen stores is imporant. The reason energy levels decrease is from a lack of carbs

Now saying the only thing spiking insulin lvls is good for is getting fat is far from the truth. Glycogen is the principal stored form of carbohydrate energy (glucose), which is reserved in muscles. When your muscles are full of glycogen, they look and feel full. After you workout your muscles are like sponges that absorb everything you feed them. When I teel people taking carbs after a workout is just as important as taking protein they look at me like I'm a retard. Post workout nutrition is essential, and when done correctly it can positively effect hormonal milieu by naturally increasing growth hormone and insulin, which are both potent hormones necessary for muscle growth.

Now with this in mind, taking large amounts of carbs post workout after half assing it in the gym can result in fat stores because simply put you haven't depleted your glycogen stores, therefore the carbs consumed will not be used towards your depleted stores. But if you work hard and give it hell then you need carbs. Just give it hell in the gym fellas. :rant:

 

[dynomite]

I'm not sure that your reasoning is sound here. If your are needlessly spiking insulin levels at other times of the day, it doesn't mean that one more will be alright. Frequent and long term bouncing of your insulin levels might mean the onset of diabetes later in life. And if you know that these activities are needless, why keep them part of your habits?

I'm not trying to judge anyone's lifestyle. But for every person I see that can get away with eating junk food, there's another that would benefit greatly from changing their habits. I'd rather not mislead this later group into something that will do more harm than good. I honestly hope you take care with how you play with insulin.

i really dont think my diet is bad enough that i will make myself a diabetic lol. thanks for the concern though man. There is people in here shooting synthetic igf and downing insane amounts of supplements that have been out only weeks. i would be more worried for them.

 

[DougMan]

i really dont think my diet is bad enough that i will make myself a diabetic lol. thanks for the concern though man. There is people in here shooting synthetic igf and downing insane amounts of supplements that have been out only weeks. i would be more worried for them.

His point may have been that there is 0 need for quick carbs after workouts, so why not just use a complex carb like oats and not worry about it at all. Then you don't need to worry about being a diabetic. Unless you just like unnecessary risks, then go right ahead.

As one SteelEntity ironically states, after workouts your muscles are primed and there is no need for the insulin spike.

But to answer your question, Complex carb doesn't automatically mean low GI. GI has sort of evolved into the concept of GL (Glycemic Load) . Supposedly it is much indicative of the body's response to a carb.

 

[CarterMalone]

Good call stell entity. One of the best ways to gain is half dextrose half maltodextrin with isolate and alot of water after the gym.

Helps your muscles better use the protein and bulk after workout. The more fat you can gain, the more muscle you can gain.

And getting fat is not a problem for an ecto like me.,

 

[dynomite]

His point may have been that there is 0 need for quick carbs after workouts, so why not just use a complex carb like oats and not worry about it at all. Then you don't need to worry about being a diabetic. Unless you just like unnecessary risks, then go right ahead.

As one SteelEntity ironically states, after workouts your muscles are primed and there is no need for the insulin spike.

But to answer your question, Complex carb doesn't automatically mean low GI. GI has sort of evolved into the concept of GL (Glycemic Load) . Supposedly it is much indicative of the body's response to a carb.

no offense man but i dont think a soda a day and a post workout shake containing maltodextrin is really "risky" in comparison to other bodybuilding practices.

if you still consider it risky consider me the evil knevil of post workout shakes.

as far as fast or slow carbs post workout, using simple logic tells me that to take full advantage of the golden hour after a workout fast carbs would be beneficial.

 

[Nitrox]

One of the best ways to gain is half dextrose half maltodextrin with isolate and alot of water after the gym.

What is your reasoning behind mixing half dextrose and half maltodextrin? What does the mixture provide that using exclusively one or the other does not?

 

[bitterplacebo]

no offense man but i dont think a soda a day and a post workout shake containing maltodextrin is really "risky" in comparison to other bodybuilding practices.

if you still consider it risky consider me the evil knevil of post workout shakes.

as far as fast or slow carbs post workout, using simple logic tells me that to take full advantage of the golden hour after a workout fast carbs would be beneficial.

Maybe I mistook your statements about candy, soda, and made some assumptions. It's just candy and soda aren't words I associate with bodybuilding. Sure you can learn to have some fun and still consider yourself a bodybuilder, as long as your attitude is in the right place, you'll figure out what works for you.

I think what people would like you to realize is that the benefits you believe maltodextrin has post-workout can be achieved through more nutritious alternatives. I believe that if you just keep it simple and get proper nourishment after a workout, there's not a large need for these super-compensatory practices. The body isn't that acute and/or unforgiving, and in most cases reacts badly to acute imbalances.

And I can't say I agree too much with the extreme views of the post-workout "golden hour" as you put it. Sure you do need nourishment to feed the deficiencies you just created, but it doesn't have to be so immediately after a workout. An hour afterwards is fine, but I hope you're not one of the people that downs a shake right after they finish their last set in the gym.

There's a study I read that found protein synthesis actually decreases if you consume a shake immediately following a workout. My logic tells me that this is correct:

-If you're working out at the proper level of intensity, then your sympathetic nervous system (fight or flight) is engaged.
-If the sympathetic nervous system is active, then blood is being actively diverted from the gut into muscle tissues to deal with the stress the body is undergoing.
-Therefore, if you just finished working out, blood has not yet resumed normal circulation to the digestive organs and the meal you just consumed isn't effectively utilized.

Think about this question:

You see a large lion running at you. What's your body more concerned about?
a) Preparing to fight or flee by priming your muscles.
b) Digesting that last meal you ate.

I'd say 'a' which is why you see many organisms release their bowels when encountering a stressful or potentially fatal situation. Working out intensely puts the body in a similar situation. So my philosophy is to workout, get home, shower, start relaxing, and eat.

 

[TheCrownedOne]

What is your reasoning behind mixing half dextrose and half maltodextrin? What does the mixture provide that using exclusively one or the other does not?

Exactly. You end up splitting hairs when you're comparing this high GI sugar to that high GI sugar. Half dextrose and half maltodextrin is nothing special. One or the other is more than enough if diabetes is your thing.

 

[SteelEntity]

His point may have been that there is 0 need for quick carbs after workouts, so why not just use a complex carb like oats and not worry about it at all. Then you don't need to worry about being a diabetic. Unless you just like unnecessary risks, then go right ahead.

As one SteelEntity ironically states, after workouts your muscles are primed and there is no need for the insulin spike.

But to answer your question, Complex carb doesn't automatically mean low GI. GI has sort of evolved into the concept of GL (Glycemic Load) . Supposedly it is much indicative of the body's response to a carb.

I think my message was clear, I did not ironically state anything. Why not just do some research about post workout nutrition? I am not pulling this **** out of my ass lol. If your goal is to build muscle then maltodextrin/dextrose post workout are very beneficial. I have seen this evident in myself as well as numerous friends. Until you have tried it don't negatively judge it. It has done wonders for me.


Slightly spiking insulin lvls after a workout will cause diabetes... well lets agree to disagree on this one :blink:

 

[MentalTwitch]

Some are more prone to the risk of Diabetes. Now no one here is shooting R-slin or what not. If you spike PWO and reall do have a good diet, a few sodas is ok for some. You're not really risking it.
As said above, many people do it and there are worse practices.
As far as supps being on the market for a few weeks. Studies have been done in those and in the spiking of insulin. So really there is no difference, well a little.
I am currently doing the spike PWO and i say it is going good. Why mix Malto/Dextro tho?

 

[Nitrox]

Why not just do some research about post workout nutrition? I am not pulling this **** out of my ass lol. If your goal is to build muscle then maltodextrin/dextrose post workout are very beneficial. I have seen this evident in myself as well as numerous friends. Until you have tried it don't negatively judge it. It has done wonders for me.

But have you done an A to B comparison, calorie for calorie, using a whole food, starchy carb source as an alternative? If not, how can you be sure that you are not just responding to extra calories from maltodextrin?

Using a blood glucose meter daily, I can tell you that dextrose will start to raise levels in about 4 minutes versus about 8 for something like oatmeal. Consequently I find it hard to believe that maltodextrin is 'extremely important' PWO for the sake of 4 minutes.

As for research: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/14038-how-much-dextrose.html

Reading articles, unsupported by relevant studies, published by hacks (authors who are paid to produce articles), IMO, does not constitute as credible research. All it does is foster superstition, much like the 50/50 dex/malto thing.

 

[DougMan]

I think my message was clear, I did not ironically state anything. Why not just do some research about post workout nutrition? I am not pulling this **** out of my ass lol. If your goal is to build muscle then maltodextrin/dextrose post workout are very beneficial. I have seen this evident in myself as well as numerous friends. Until you have tried it don't negatively judge it. It has done wonders for me.


Slightly spiking insulin lvls after a workout will cause diabetes... well lets agree to disagree on this one :blink:

(edit: Nitrox beat me to the other thread)
Pre, During, & Postworkout Nutrition. - Page 29 - Bodybuilding.com Forums

0 benefit + increased risk = unnecessary risk.

And no you are not pulling it out of your ass, you are pulling it out of the ass of a supplement company.

In the grand scheme of things, is it really that bad? Not really. But "well it could be worse. QED." is not a valid proof of high GI carbs having any benefit.

So keep on patronizing me, but after you finish that 10lb jug of malto you paid too much for read through those threads.

 

[SteelEntity]

Dougman how am I patronizing you for christ sake, lighten up. Everyone has a take on the subject, I am trying to give my 2 cents on it and don't appreciate getting bashed. And big ****ing deal, I used a site to help get my point across because the point was excellently told, well ****ing call the cops.

Next time think before you get so ****ing hostile. Don't bother responding to this as you surely won't get a response. Have a nice day

 

[DougMan]

Dougman how am I patronizing you for christ sake, lighten up. Everyone has a take on the subject, I am trying to give my 2 cents on it and don't appreciate getting bashed. And big ****ing deal, I used a site to help get my point across because the point was excellently told, well ****ing call the cops.

Next time think before you get so ****ing hostile. Don't bother responding to this as you surely won't get a response. Have a nice day

First off, I didn't intend to bash you. The patronizing remark was in regards to "evil knevil" comment which was not yours.
Everyone does have a take on the issue, but not everyone is correct. I didn't mean to come off hostile, but I am not a fan of the "to each his own, but I still want my comment to stand as valid" mindset.

The way I see it, this argument has been beat to death 100x times. It usually ends with the low carb GI people having more of the research/theory on their side and the high carb people saying something to the effect that it has worked in their experience. Personal experience does not beat out research/theory in this argument. If you want to say,"lets just agree to disagree" you can't then ask me "Why not just do some research about post workout nutrition?"
Bobo has presented the research, that is my point.

So you can either refute the research, or admit what you are doing is not optimal but is good enough for your liking. I don't think anyone is arguing that Malto is not effective; it is a source of calories and is a carbohydrate, so it is of course going to have a positive effect PWO. The argument I am making is that it provides no substantial additional benefits to oats or another complex carb [edit:complex carb/low GI], while unnecessarily increasing the risk of insulin-related side effects, mainly diabetes and fat storage.

We are really not that far apart, you hit the core of my argument right here:

After you workout your muscles are like sponges that absorb everything you feed them.

No need to spike insulin if that is the case.

 

[dynomite]

i personally did not read all of those entire studies. however i am getting the idea that the studies were not too elaborate.

our digestive systems do not require the energy/bloodflow to digest fast absorbing nutrients. they are basically already broken down. sip the fast nutrients and take the load of your digestive track.

however if you drink complex nutrients wether they be slow digesting proteins or carbs, it will take more energy/bloodflow to digest. the most efficient and effective way to restore muscles post workout in my opinion is to slowly sip fast absorbing nutrients over the period of 30-60 minutes. it takes the load off your body of having to digest and will easily shuttle nutrients to the sponges that are also known as muscles.

edit: when i say not too elaborate i mean that they did not specify how fast the post work out shakes were consumed

 

[bitterplacebo]

i personally did not read all of those entire studies. however i am getting the idea that the studies were not too elaborate.

our digestive systems do not require the energy/bloodflow to digest fast absorbing nutrients. they are basically already broken down. sip the fast nutrients and take the load of your digestive track.

however if you drink complex nutrients wether they be slow digesting proteins or carbs, it will take more energy/bloodflow to digest. the most efficient and effective way to restore muscles post workout in my opinion is to slowly sip fast absorbing nutrients over the period of 30-60 minutes. it takes the load off your body of having to digest and will easily shuttle nutrients to the sponges that are also known as muscles.

edit: when i say not too elaborate i mean that they did not specify how fast the post work out shakes were consumed

This is a good point. If you're using the sugar with aminos or whey, then I would agree sipping would be better than just slamming down a shake after a workout, as that kind of overload defeats the purpose of those "fast" nutrients.

Some other food for thought: the combination of protein and carbs without any significant fat source spikes insulin the greatest out of any macronutrient combination. So just a guess, but I would think that using the combination of a fast protein and a fast carb would give the greatest spike and thus the greatest amount of spillover into fat storage.

I'll concede that sugars can have their place in the diet, but let's look at a goal oriented approach.
-Bulking: I've use maltodextrin in the past and didn't find any difference in ability to gain mass when I switched to "slow" carbs. So, if for some reason, the maltodextrin is more convenient, I can't honestly recommend a switch unless the person's lifestyle is tending toward diabetes.
-Cutting: An insulin spike will increase the risk of spill-over into fat stores, not recommended.

I don't think anyone is trying to lie in this thread. There's so much contradicting evidence to be found out there and it's difficult to find the best answer. The experience of discussion is rewarding enough for me, regardless of whether my suggestions are taken.

Maybe we can compromise on waxy maize starch, which replenishes glycogen stores quickly without using the mechanism of an insulin spike?

 

[gdbear65]

Exactly. You end up splitting hairs when you're comparing this high GI sugar to that high GI sugar. Half dextrose and half maltodextrin is nothing special. One or the other is more than enough if diabetes is your thing.

Adding maltodextrin to dextrose lowers its' osmolarity, meaning it flows through the stomach more quickly. It is documented that together they are better than either on its' own.

Dextrose & Maltodextrin an in-depth analysis

 

[DriverDan]

Looks like I'm going to have to cite my favorite article on PWO nutrition.

Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

ABSTRACT
Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have shown that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic carbohydrates greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic carbohydrates only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by hyperaminoacidaemia induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, consumption of post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remain to be determined.

The goal of PWO carbs shouldn't be to restore glycogen. The goal should be to shuttle amino acids to the muscle to increase protein synthesis. Glycogen will replenish just fine if you're eating enough carbs in your regular diet.

 

[Nitrox]

Some other food for thought: the combination of protein and carbs without any significant fat source spikes insulin the greatest out of any macronutrient.

The highest insulin spikes are achieved with straight carbs. 500cals dextrose will create a higher spike than 250cals dextrose + 250cals protein. The total calories have to be the same or you are comparing apples to oranges.

-Cutting: An insulin spike will increase the risk of spill-over into fat stores, not recommended.

Usually yes but not necessarily. When you are cutting you have to consume less calories than maintenance. A 'cutting diet' serving of high GI carbs may create an insulin spike relative to levels for the rest of the day but that does not mean that weight will be gained. Again total calories cannot be overlooked.

Maybe we can compromise on waxy maize starch, which replenishes glycogen stores quickly without using the mechanism of an insulin spike?

That would be too easy.

Theoretically, as a diabetic, if I eat WMS I should then not have to take my insulin for it? I wouldn't bet on it. I will have to waste some money and try it out.

Here's another good thread with some PWO nutrition discussion: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/56805-waxy-maize-starch.html

 

[Nitrox]

Adding maltodextrin to dextrose lowers its' osmolarity, meaning it flows through the stomach more quickly. It is documented that together they are better than either on its' own.

Dextrose & Maltodextrin an in-depth analysis

This article uses other studies to form a hypothesis without doing any direct experimental analysis on it. It is not a complete or conclusive study as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Not to mention that the statement As discussed in the Window of Opportunity, these factors make dextrose and maltodextrin the perfect post workout combo Is hardly objective.

 

[Nitrox]

Looks like I'm going to have to cite my favorite article on PWO nutrition.

Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

ABSTRACT
Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have shown that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic carbohydrates greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic carbohydrates only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by hyperaminoacidaemia induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, consumption of post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength.However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remain to be determined.

Sorry to harp on the credibility of your guys' studies...

This article draws a conclusion based on the words 'should' and 'may'. Well do they or don't they? If they don't know then the study is inconclusive.

 

[gdbear65]

This article uses other studies to form a hypothesis without doing any direct experimental analysis on it. It is not a complete or conclusive study as per Scientific method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention that the statement As discussed in the Window of Opportunity, these factors make dextrose and maltodextrin the perfect post workout combo Is hardly objective.

It's an analysis, not a study, if you disagree with it's conclusions, feel free to refute them. As you well know, very few studies are done specifically on nutrition for bodybuilding, so direct experimental analysis may never be done.

 

[bitterplacebo]

The highest insulin spikes are achieved with straight carbs. 500cals dextrose will create a higher spike than 250cals dextrose + 250cals protein. The total calories have to be the same or you are comparing apples to oranges.

Show me your sources and I'll show you mine?
Not sure if you actually have anything specific in mind, but yeah I can accept the logic that you have to compare equal caloric amounts.

I was relying on information from the books authored by some Scivation people.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/docs/2007/lifestylecutdiet.pdf
page 13
or CUT DIET.COM also has some stuff

but it does look like they are comparing the situation of, say,
500 carbohydrate calories vs. 500 carbs + 250 protein.

That would be too easy.

Theoretically, as a diabetic, if I eat WMS I should then not have to take my insulin for it? I wouldn't bet on it. I will have to waste some money and try it out.

Here's another good thread with some PWO nutrition discussion: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/56805-waxy-maize-starch.html

WMS does seem to be the easy way out of this mess of contradictions. I've been reading more about it due to this thread, and I just wasted some money to try it out. I'm coming off of a 11 week cut diet, so I've been pretty well depleted, so I'm going to see about it's filling out abilities.

Edit:
After reading some of the WMS thread (Bobo's a cool fellow), I thought I'd clarify what I intend to use WMS for. I'm not really concerned with replenishing glycogen stores quickly after workouts, but I thought it might be a good idea to use WMS only in the morning before my workouts to try to make sure I'm all fueled up and ready to work hard.

 

[Nitrox]

I don't think anyone is trying to lie in this thread. There's so much contradicting evidence to be found out there and it's difficult to find the best answer. The experience of discussion is rewarding enough for me, regardless of whether my suggestions are taken.

Very good point.

There is a lot of conflicting info out there and that is one reason why I've been commenting on the validity of some articles/studies. I see a trend of articles published that seemed to be geared towards selling supps or for making a name for the author that are wrapped up in an analytical packaging in an attempt to add credibility. Identifying these and weighing their actual value is helpful to cut through a lot of the BS; I'm not trying to be argumentative.

 

[Nitrox]

Show me your sources and I'll show you mine?
Not sure if you actually have anything specific in mind, but yeah I can accept the logic that you have to compare equal caloric amounts.

The fact that of the 3 common macros, carbs require the most amount of insulin to metabolize is widely accepted. I'll see what I can dig up to support it that isnt a simple paragraph in a diabetes management text.

Alternatively I could measure blood glucose increases with different macro combos but Im not up for turning my fingers into pincushions just yet.

I think some of the arguments could be resolved if the definition of a 'spike' is cleared up. What we really referring to is a pointed portion of a continuous curve or graph, usually rising above the adjacent portion. This does not really tell us anything quantitative about the levels just that it is a localized high point.

Insulin regulates nutrient (hence energy) uptake. The higher the insulin the higher the rate of uptake. Since there is only so much glycogen storage available and muscle can only be built so fast wheras fat storage is relatively unlimited. Yes, the higher the insulin the higher the percentage of energy that will stored as fat. So a 'spike' could be both good or bad depending on the actual level generated.

 

[MentalTwitch]

Sorry to harp on the credibility of your guys' studies...

This article draws a conclusion based on the words 'should' and 'may'. Well do they or don't they? If they don't know then the study is inconclusive.

This guy is good....:clap2:
All arguing aside, this thread def has some good insight and info links. Goes to show all the different ways people eat PWO and how they attack the replenishing of the muscles.

 

[bitterplacebo]

The fact that of the 3 common macros, carbs require the most amount of insulin to metabolize is widely accepted. I'll see what I can dig up to support it that isnt a simple paragraph in a diabetes management text.

Alternatively I could measure blood glucose increases with different macro combos but Im not up for turning my fingers into pincushions just yet.

I think some of the arguments could be resolved if the definition of a 'spike' is cleared up. What we really referring to is a pointed portion of a continuous curve or graph, usually rising above the adjacent portion. This does not really tell us anything quantitative about the levels just that it is a localized high point.

Insulin regulates nutrient (hence energy) uptake. The higher the insulin the higher the rate of uptake. Since there is only so much glycogen storage available and muscle can only be built so fast wheras fat storage is relatively unlimited. Yes, the higher the insulin the higher the percentage of energy that will stored as fat. So a 'spike' could be both good or bad depending on the actual level generated.

No need to put yourself through the trouble of bleeding yourself on this one. I'd say most would agree that carbs require the most insulin response. But most people tend to go heavy on compounding their post-workout carbs with protein, which would only elicit a greater insulin response, no? They don't say to themselves->since I'm adding in protein, I better take away some carbs to compensate because I don't want a large insulin spike in the presence of overabundant calories.

Another view that was brought up is that the goal of post-workout nutrition is protein synthesis, not so much in glycogen replenishment. I'd agree, but the next point was that a large insulin spike stimulates protein synthesis. I would say a better stimulus for protein synthesis is simply the presence of amino acids in the blood plasma, which you can get consuming just protein.

 

[bitterplacebo]

This guy is good....:clap2:
All arguing aside, this thread def has some good insight and info links. Goes to show all the different ways people eat PWO and how they attack the replenishing of the muscles.

I concur that words like 'probably,' 'should,' or 'may' when used in a study don't convince me to base my actions around the conclusions that were found.

Yeah, forums like this are much more essential than reading studies alone. I know I'm tired of seeing some new supplement make some extraordinary claims, backed by some evidence or research study just to make it seem legit.

It might be better just to rely on people's personal experience. They can tell you what practices or methods they followed, and the results that they saw. Usually you won't hear--"I think I got fat from doing this," or "I think I gained x lean pounds doing that." We can be extremely perceptive about ourselves, and have access to decent ways to accurately measure weight and bodyfat. However, even then, everyone can react uniquely to different diet and exercise practices.

But for what it's worth, I'll restate my experience with using maltodextrin vs. using rice (if I remember right) for postworkout carbs. There was no big difference in ability to gain mass. I did use both methods each consistently for at least 6-8 weeks. And I believe the carbs for each meal was around the same of 70-85 grams. Amount of protein was also approximately 40-60 grams for each method. I don't think I used any additional fat beyond what was in the carb & protein sources. Only deviation was in how I felt after the meal. With the maltodextrin I had a semi-crash sometime afterwards, and with the rice I just felt full and lazy for a while. Think that covers it all, don't ask if my workout intensity/difficulty differed at all or I might be offended.

 

[DriverDan]

Sorry to harp on the credibility of your guys' studies...

This article draws a conclusion based on the words 'should' and 'may'. Well do they or don't they? If they don't know then the study is inconclusive.

That wasn't a study, it was a review. You're right that he's not very conclusive. I recommend reading the studies he cites.

 

[gdbear65]

0 benefit + increased risk = unnecessary risk.

I have read that spiking insulin PWO has many benefits:

increases glucose uptake and glycogen production in the muscles

increases amino acids transport to muscles

increases protein synthesis

increases blood flow to skeletal muscles (vasodilation)

decreases protein degradation

decreases cortisol levels

Is this incorrect?

I have also heard that raising insulin levels shuts down GH production?

 

[Nitrox]

I have read that spiking insulin PWO has many benefits:

increases glucose uptake and glycogen production in the muscles

increases amino acids transport to muscles

increases protein synthesis

increases blood flow to skeletal muscles (vasodilation)

decreases protein degradation

decreases cortisol levels

Is this incorrect?

I have also heard that raising insulin levels shuts down GH production?

I don't know about the GH part but the rest is more or less correct. However you have left out an important piece of information. Elevated insulin levels will accomplish that anytime, not just PWO. So ask yourself why are we being told that this is only important PWO? Do muscles grow only during this Golden hour? No of course not.

IMO all this focus on insulin is doing more harm than good. Insulin is basically a catalyst for energy uptake that is essentially triggered by energy intake. PWO nutrition should focus more on replenishing energy deficits created through activity and less on achieving peak insulin levels. Sure they are related but they are not the same.

 

[gdbear65]

I don't know about the GH part but the rest is more or less correct. However you have left out an important piece of information. Elevated insulin levels will accomplish that anytime, not just PWO. So ask yourself why are we being told that this is only important PWO? Do muscles grow only during this Golden hour? No of course not.

IMO all this focus on insulin is doing more harm than good. Insulin is basically a catalyst for energy uptake that is essentially triggered by energy intake. PWO nutrition should focus more on replenishing energy deficits created through activity and less on achieving peak insulin levels. Sure they are related but they are not the same.

Thanks.

I have since read a couple of studies, using rats, showing that raising insulin levels progressively shuts down GH production.

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Thanks.

I have since read a couple of studies, using rats, showing that raising insulin levels progressively shuts down GH production.

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

There could be alternatives that also reduce cortisol. BCAA supplementation will help, also an anti-cortisol product can do that without the risks associated with insulin manipulation.

Also just saw something that found BCAA supplementation compounded with exercise has a positive effect on HGH levels.

 

[Nitrox]

I agree that replenishing energy deficits is important, but it's also important to reverse the negative effects of cortisol and get your body started on recovery and new growth.

Yes and that is what replacing the energy and, I forgot to include, supplying adequate protein do. If your body does not have an outside source of energy and nitrogen to fuel repair and recovery it will breakdown existing stores (glycogen, muscle, and/or fat) to obtain it. Energy and protein replacement is the net result that is needed, elevated insulin is just the mechanism that facilitates it. Focusing on arbitrary insulin levels (have you ever read any recommendations on exactly what insulin level you should be aiming for?) is just not looking at the big picture.

 

[gdbear65]

(have you ever read any recommendations on exactly what insulin level you should be aiming for?)

That's my next question

 

[alan aragon]

Looks like I'm going to have to cite my favorite article on PWO nutrition.

Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink -- Manninen 40 (11): 900 -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

ABSTRACT
Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have shown that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic carbohydrates greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic carbohydrates only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by hyperaminoacidaemia induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, consumption of post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remain to be determined.

The goal of PWO carbs shouldn't be to restore glycogen. The goal should be to shuttle amino acids to the muscle to increase protein synthesis. Glycogen will replenish just fine if you're eating enough carbs in your regular diet.

Here's what the author of that review fails to point out: ALL data in support of fast-acting substrates postworkout were done on glycogen-depleted subjects who trained after an overnight fast, minus a preworkout meal or shake. The presence of aminos & glucose absorbing into the blood during training as a result of a preworkout meal quite simply eliminates the urgency of the postworkout meal being quickly absorbed.

If you were dumb enough to train vigorously for a long time on a dead empty stomach after waking in the morning, then you definitely need the fastest-absorbing postworkout supplement available. However, if you had either a solid full-sized preworkout meal within 90 minutes or a small preworkout meal or shake within roughly 30 minutes of training, you absolutely don't need a fast-acting postworkout mix. Why? Assuming we're talking about the weight training bout of typical length (60-80 minutes), you'd still be in the tail end of the absorptive phase of the preworkout meal when your training bout is finished.

 

[DriverDan]

Here's what the author of that review fails to point out: ALL data in support of fast-acting substrates postworkout were done on glycogen-depleted subjects who trained after an overnight fast, minus a preworkout meal or shake. The presence of aminos & glucose absorbing into the blood during training as a result of a preworkout meal quite simply eliminates the urgency of the postworkout meal being quickly absorbed.

If you were dumb enough to train vigorously for a long time on a dead empty stomach after waking in the morning, then you definitely need the fastest-absorbing postworkout supplement available. However, if you had either a solid full-sized preworkout meal within 90 minutes or a small preworkout meal or shake within roughly 30 minutes of training, you absolutely don't need a fast-acting postworkout mix. Why? Assuming we're talking about the weight training bout of typical length (60-80 minutes), you'd still be in the tail end of the absorptive phase of the preworkout meal when your training bout is finished.

Very interesting observation. I'm going to have to look at those studies again.