Waxy Maize Starch Craze

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    wow, good first post. Lets just ignore all scientific studies, what the hell, why not. Science never explains anything screw it.


    MOD EDIT: One post wonder. IP's reveal a lot

    my point was that wms does a lot more than the typical carb. it keeps your muscles fuller way longer than the others. it lets me recovery way better than any other supp. the pump is long lasting and phenominal. 70 g pre or during with 70g post . add 15g citrulline malate pre and you will have the best workouts, pumps and recovery. all of this science you guys are talking about is based on preexisting carb data. wms obviously has different properties than the rest. science wil bear this out at some point. real world results is what im after. you should try wms for awhile instead of conjecturing on something you never used. and being nasty about it to boot. just trying to help.


  2. if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not? i constantly eat low gi carbs t/o the day, and the wms properties still occur whenever i use it. not as profound as post workout, but still there. regular carbs cant do that. why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs? all im saying is we need more research on it. we need to ask different questions. i used to work for abbott doing clinical trials. its easy to mess up a study [ way too many to mention here] if its not set up correctly. you also find groundbreaking properties quite by accident, and you cant even attribute them to a known process. even psychotropic meds are not fully understood as far as how they work. their methods of action are only explained so far. just something to think about.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That people are still concerned with speed when its almost irrelevant if you simply eat correctly.



    Excellent point my friend.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.




    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: [email protected].

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.



    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.
    Another great post bobo!

  5. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? w

    I get the same results when I take people off of high GI pre and post workout and put them on high GL/ mod GI whole foods.


    What does your experience tell you? That taking 140g of a fast acting carb increases glycogen stores. Big, ****ing whoop....its nothing revolutionary AT ALL.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs?

    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not?
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.


    how long have yo been using it?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.


    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    how long have yo been using it?

    I had around 10 clients using it. How many have you had?
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.
    Well then, maybe WMS is a magic carb source for all those diabetics out there!!!


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  12. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.
    And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you.
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  13. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.


    try taking 35-60g of extra oats, malto whatever, not around your workout times, and see if your muscles stay full. it wont happen. you will just bloat. also, other carbs dont fill your muscles out anywhere near the way wms does, and again, wms stays in your muscles longer. its a great way to add calories. great energy for cardio and lifting, and never feeling tired. and ive put on more muscle faster , im convinced, because wms dramatically lets me increase my workload and promotes faster recovery.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    try taking 35-60g of extra oats, malto whatever, not around your workout times, and see if your muscles stay full. it wont happen. you will just bloat. also, other carbs dont fill your muscles out anywhere near the way wms does, and again, wms stays in your muscles longer. its a great way to add calories. great energy for cardio and lifting, and never feeling tired. and ive put on more muscle faster , im convinced, because wms dramatically lets me increase my workload and promotes faster recovery.

    Funny, I've trained people for years, including people on the competitive level that have done just great. These people also try just about everything there is out there for curiosity's sake and I already know their opinion. Its just another fast acting carb..Will get you a fuller pump quicker? Sure...but as people who actually study in this area cna attest, pump means little to nothing except comparing starved or fed states. You can get the same with dextrose if you can take the digestive problems but the end results IS THE SAME.

    The simple fact that you make statement that "wms" stays in your muscles longer shows your complete ignorance of the most bascis and fundamental principle of nutrition...the end of product of all carb sources is the SAME THING. WMS doens't "stay" in your musles longer because its not WMS anymore...its glyocogen!!!! Once digested WMS isn't WMS anymore...its JUST GLUCOSE > GLYCOGEN via glycogen synthesis.

    If WMS was some magic carb source diabetics would be popping WMS tabs instead of glucose tabs!!!

    I just love people who want to argue advanced topics when they can't even grasp the basics....
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  15. [QUOTE=Bobo;774067]And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you


    QUOTE]

    as far as diabetes goes, you never know. like i said previously, we need more research. stevia works wonders with my diabetic clients taking oha's or insulin. their glucose levels would skyrocket if they used other sweetners. that wold be great if wms could be used with diabetics who are athletes . other forums actualy have had diabetic guys who have done tests on glucose levels and wms with favorable results. to answer your question about it maybe not spiking insulin too much, you wouldnt have as much fat gain. as far as protein synthesis goes, whey post wms does the trick for me. also, the faster the glycogen replenishment, the faster the body can focus on protein synthesis and recovery. at least for me.

  16. [QUOTE=51502112;774095]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you


    QUOTE]

    as far as diabetes goes, you never know. like i said previously, we need more research. stevia works wonders with my diabetic clients taking oha's or insulin. their glucose levels would skyrocket if they used other sweetners. that wold be great if wms could be used with diabetics who are athletes . other forums actualy have had diabetic guys who have done tests on glucose levels and wms with favorable results. to answer your question about it maybe not spiking insulin too much, you wouldnt have as much fat gain. as far as protein synthesis goes, whey post wms does the trick for me. also, the faster the glycogen replenishment, the faster the body can focus on protein synthesis and recovery. at least for me.
    You are wrong on so many levels that if you have "clients" that are diabetics, I fear for them.


    I can't remember the last time I have someone butcher some of the most basic principles and completely ignore nutritional facts as you. I'm at a loss for words.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Funny, I've trained people for years, including people on the competitive level that have done just great. These people also try just about everything there is out there for curiosity's sake and I already know their opinion. Its just another fast acting carb..Will get you a fuller pump quicker? Sure...but as people who actually study in this area cna attest, pump means little to nothing except comparing starved or fed states. You can get the same with dextrose if you can take the digestive problems but the end results IS THE SAME.

    The simple fact that you make statement that "wms" stays in your muscles longer shows your complete ignorance of the most bascis and fundamental principle of nutrition...the end of product of all carb sources is the SAME THING. WMS doens't "stay" in your musles longer because its not WMS anymore...its glyocogen!!!! Once digested WMS isn't WMS anymore...its JUST GLUCOSE > GLYCOGEN via glycogen synthesis.

    If WMS was some magic carb source diabetics would be popping WMS tabs instead of glucose tabs!!!

    I just love people who want to argue advanced topics when they can't even grasp the basics....


    i not going to get in a pissing contest with you. like i said, your using valid scientific facts about carb replenishment that i wholeheartedly agree with. except that wms isnt a normal carb. im not lying about the length of time my muscles stay fuller. if i dont use it, my muscles stay less full after a workout and for a shorter period of time. thats a major diffrence in functionality between other carbs, whether you accept it or not. and i actually have an immense grasp of knowledge on the basics. the difference between our outlook is that i combine that knowledge with an open mind.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    i not going to get in a pissing contest with you. like i said, your using valid scientific facts about carb replenishment that i wholeheartedly agree with. except that wms isnt a normal carb. im not lying about the length of time my muscles stay fuller. if i dont use it, my muscles stay less full after a workout and for a shorter period of time. thats a major diffrence in functionality between other carbs, whether you accept it or not. and i actually have an immense grasp of knowledge on the basics. the difference between our outlook is that outlook is that i combine that knowledge with an open mind.
    Its not pissing match. Stating a derivative of corn starch isn't a normal carb is ridiculous. There isn't such a thing as a "normal" carb. They have different properties.


    You don't have a clue of the basics or you wouldn't make half the statement you've made. They simply don't make sense. WMS doesnt "stay" in your muscle. The statement itself is completely ignorant.

    Stating your muscle stay fuller and not understanding that it means jack sh!t shows you don't have an open mind, it shows you have an empty one.

    You combine that knowledge with an open mind?

    I combine mine with the real world.


    Training several diabetics right now (type I and II). Here are some blood sugar results form a type II client last week.


    Sunday March 18/07:
    Weigh in (will be checking weekly) = 266lbs
    Blood Sugar - 18mmol/L


    Monday March 19/07:
    Blood Sugar = 20mmol/L

    Blood Sugar @ end of day = 11mmol/L


    Tuesday March 20/07
    Blood Sugar = 12 mmol/L


    Wednesday March 21, 07
    Blood Sugar = 11mmol/L

    Thursday March 21/07
    Blood Sugar = 9mmol/L

    Saturday / Sunday.
    Weight @ 264
    blood sugar @ 9 mmol/L

    Weight = 264lbs
    Blood Sugar = 8.3mmol/L




    If you actually are giving advice to people, especially diabetics, you should be stopped because you don't have one clue what you are talking about.

    51502112
    Member
    Education - High School

    Case closed.
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Its not pissing match. Stating a derivative of corn starch isn't a normal carb is ridiculous. There isn't such a thing as a "normal" carb. They have different properties.


    You don't have a clue of the basics or you wouldn't make half the statement you've made. They simply don't make sense. WMS doesnt "stay" in your muscle. The statement itself is completely ignorant.

    Stating your muscle stay fuller and not understanding that it means jack sh!t shows you don't have an open mind, it shows you have an empty one.

    You combine that knowledge with an open mind?

    I combine mine with the real world.


    Training several diabetics right now (type I and II). Here are some blood sugar results form a type II client last week.


    Sunday March 18/07:
    Weigh in (will be checking weekly) = 266lbs
    Blood Sugar - 18mmol/L


    Monday March 19/07:
    Blood Sugar = 20mmol/L

    Blood Sugar @ end of day = 11mmol/L


    Tuesday March 20/07
    Blood Sugar = 12 mmol/L


    Wednesday March 21, 07
    Blood Sugar = 11mmol/L

    Thursday March 21/07
    Blood Sugar = 9mmol/L

    Saturday / Sunday.
    Weight @ 264
    blood sugar @ 9 mmol/L

    Weight = 264lbs
    Blood Sugar = 8.3mmol/L




    If you actually are giving advice to people, especially diabetics, you should be stopped because you don't have one clue what you are talking about.

    51502112
    Member
    Education - High School

    Case closed.
    I love this thread...probably my all time favorite. I would rep you bobo....but there is no point to it.

    Not to change to subject, but do you have any educational degrees bobo?? im JW

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    I love this thread...probably my all time favorite. I would rep you bobo....but there is no point to it.

    Not to change to subject, but do you have any educational degrees bobo?? im JW
    Yes, mainly in social sciences.

    Also took several graduate level (676) course in sports nutrition...had to get permission to get in since I wasn't in grad school.

    If people want to take WMS, go for it. Use whatever works for you. If people think its better, keep using it but in no way is WMS some magic carb that takes on extra ordinary properties over any other carbohydrate. The end results is the same....glucose.
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