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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.

    I'm not at all. I simply don't believe what you say. I've looked at the same material as you have. Its not locked away for select people to view.

    I've forward this to Alan so we can have his viewpoint as well. I'm done..won't be around
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Just look at a steroid user. High levels of testosterone (or a test-derivative (steroids)) will cause greater gains in muscle and greater losses of fat. Just look at any "kid" that starts steroids yet doesn't have enough knowledge or discipline to change their diet. They'll automatically gain some muscle and lose some fat. You also see this ALL OF THE TIME with people on LEGAL hormone (testosterone) replacement therapy. Without making ANY other changes, they put on muscle and lose fat. That's b/c higher levels of test shuttle more nutrients and calories to your muscles while "starving" fat cells.

    .

    Really? This is how testosterone works?

    I always thought it was increasing mRNA gene transcription, increasing protein syntheiss rates to a point above normal physiological levels along with supraphysiological levels of IGF-1.


    But now its because testosterone shuttle more nutrients. Got it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Really? This is how testosterone works?

    I always thought it was increasing mRNA gene transcription, increasing protein syntheiss rates to a point above normal physiological levels along with supraphysiological levels of IGF-1.


    But now its because testosterone shuttle more nutrients. Got it.
    I'm sorry I didn't realize I was writing for a thesis. I was referring to the NET EFFECT of testosterone.
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    Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.
    Umm....Yes. It says the combination is better than either alone. Where is the revelation and where does the GI come into play here?


    Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise
    Elisabet Børsheim, Melanie G. Cree, Kevin D. Tipton, Tabatha A. Elliott, Asle Aarsland, and Robert R. Wolfe

    Department of Surgery, Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children-Galveston, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550

    Submitted 3 April 2003 ; accepted in final form 24 October 2003

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of ingestion of 100 g of carbohydrates on net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus protein breakdown) after resistance exercise. Two groups of eight subjects performed a resistance exercise bout (10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg presses at 80% of 1-repetition maximum) before they rested in bed for 4 h. One group (CHO) received a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates 1 h postexercise. The other group (Pla) received a noncaloric placebo drink. Leg amino acid metabolism was determined by infusion of 2H5- or 13C6-labeled phenylalanine, sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis. Drink intake did not affect arterial insulin concentration in Pla, whereas insulin increased several times after the drink in CHO (P < 0.05 vs. Pla). Arterial phenylalanine concentration fell slightly after the drink in CHO. Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour). The improved net balance in CHO was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.



    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    I'm sorry I didn't realize I was writing for a thesis. I was referring to the NET EFFECT of testosterone.
    If you are going to make an analogy, at least make one with a more accurate picture. The whole "starving fat cells and shuttling nutrients" with supra physiological doses of testosterone is a stretch by a long shot. The way in which androgen's increase lean body mass has little do with with where nutrients are shuttled but more so on how those nutrients are utilized. Increased aromatization from large doses can certainly help fat storage quite a bit.
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    It's discussions like these that I can partake in the knowledge of others so I can get past the hype. The high GI vs. low GI debate has been done over the years at various forums.

    I couldn't say who's right but I find Bobo's reasoning more compelling. I've moved onto oats as my pwo as opposed to dextrose which I used for creatine mono shuttling but with the advent of cee and other creatines, that reason has been removed for me. Even then I don't see how I can justify spending signifcantly more than for WMS over dextrose for just muscle fullness.

    I'm still working on my diet and regimen. I had fallen into the supplement trap but with the help of boards like these and the informed minds within. Aside from the truly dedicated, I really don't think the majority have diets/excercise in check.

    My money goes to BCAA's over WMS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. sbird@csu.edu.au

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.
    This study does absolutely nothing to support the claim that high-GI carbs are the superior bet postworkout.

    If you woke up in the morning, skipped your preworkout meal completely, then yeah, go ahead and build your case.

    About WMS, here's another tidbit for ya, you can go ahead & laugh at the WMS consumers while you save your bucks:

    "Despite previous reports of faster gastric emptying and glycogen resynthesis suggesting enhanced glucose delivery, a markedly hypotonic HMW glucose polymer solution had no effect on exogenous and endogenous substrate oxidation rates during exercise, relative to a LMW glucose polymer solution. These data are consistent with there being no effect of carbohydrate structure or solution osmolality or viscosity on exogenous glucose oxidation and that ingested glucose polymers can only be oxidized on average up to 1.0 g.min during exercise." [Rowland, et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Sep;37(9):1510-6.]

    ^^During-training high molecular weight CHO doesn't influence jack. Post-training high molecular weight CHO has been shown to increase rate of glycogen synthesis under the following conditions irrelevant to us: a) after complete glycogen depletion, minus a pre-workout meal, b) in the absence of protein or aminos, which can undoubtedly alter the transport behavior of the solution, c) a 300g dose was used.

    WMS has zero micronutrition just like dex, and it's more expensive than oats, which are micronutrient-rich. How bout we do the math here...

    Years ago when I debated Bobo on my stance that high-GI was necessary postworkout, I neglected to realize the fact that all studies supporting high-GI postW were done on overnight fasted subjects minus a preworkout meal. If you nailed down your preW nutrition, the necessary substrates will already be absorbed into circulation when you need them. The mere presence of preW nutrition removes the urgency of quick substrates postW.
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    this thread is absolutely incredible for learning about how the body reacts to carbs!
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    wow, good first post. Lets just ignore all scientific studies, what the hell, why not. Science never explains anything screw it.


    MOD EDIT: One post wonder. IP's reveal a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    wow, good first post. Lets just ignore all scientific studies, what the hell, why not. Science never explains anything screw it.


    MOD EDIT: One post wonder. IP's reveal a lot

    my point was that wms does a lot more than the typical carb. it keeps your muscles fuller way longer than the others. it lets me recovery way better than any other supp. the pump is long lasting and phenominal. 70 g pre or during with 70g post . add 15g citrulline malate pre and you will have the best workouts, pumps and recovery. all of this science you guys are talking about is based on preexisting carb data. wms obviously has different properties than the rest. science wil bear this out at some point. real world results is what im after. you should try wms for awhile instead of conjecturing on something you never used. and being nasty about it to boot. just trying to help.
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    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not? i constantly eat low gi carbs t/o the day, and the wms properties still occur whenever i use it. not as profound as post workout, but still there. regular carbs cant do that. why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs? all im saying is we need more research on it. we need to ask different questions. i used to work for abbott doing clinical trials. its easy to mess up a study [ way too many to mention here] if its not set up correctly. you also find groundbreaking properties quite by accident, and you cant even attribute them to a known process. even psychotropic meds are not fully understood as far as how they work. their methods of action are only explained so far. just something to think about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That people are still concerned with speed when its almost irrelevant if you simply eat correctly.



    Excellent point my friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.




    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: zl3e@virginia.edu.

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.



    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.
    Another great post bobo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? w

    I get the same results when I take people off of high GI pre and post workout and put them on high GL/ mod GI whole foods.


    What does your experience tell you? That taking 140g of a fast acting carb increases glycogen stores. Big, ****ing whoop....its nothing revolutionary AT ALL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs?

    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not?
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.


    how long have yo been using it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.


    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    how long have yo been using it?

    I had around 10 clients using it. How many have you had?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.
    Well then, maybe WMS is a magic carb source for all those diabetics out there!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.
    And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.


    try taking 35-60g of extra oats, malto whatever, not around your workout times, and see if your muscles stay full. it wont happen. you will just bloat. also, other carbs dont fill your muscles out anywhere near the way wms does, and again, wms stays in your muscles longer. its a great way to add calories. great energy for cardio and lifting, and never feeling tired. and ive put on more muscle faster , im convinced, because wms dramatically lets me increase my workload and promotes faster recovery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    try taking 35-60g of extra oats, malto whatever, not around your workout times, and see if your muscles stay full. it wont happen. you will just bloat. also, other carbs dont fill your muscles out anywhere near the way wms does, and again, wms stays in your muscles longer. its a great way to add calories. great energy for cardio and lifting, and never feeling tired. and ive put on more muscle faster , im convinced, because wms dramatically lets me increase my workload and promotes faster recovery.

    Funny, I've trained people for years, including people on the competitive level that have done just great. These people also try just about everything there is out there for curiosity's sake and I already know their opinion. Its just another fast acting carb..Will get you a fuller pump quicker? Sure...but as people who actually study in this area cna attest, pump means little to nothing except comparing starved or fed states. You can get the same with dextrose if you can take the digestive problems but the end results IS THE SAME.

    The simple fact that you make statement that "wms" stays in your muscles longer shows your complete ignorance of the most bascis and fundamental principle of nutrition...the end of product of all carb sources is the SAME THING. WMS doens't "stay" in your musles longer because its not WMS anymore...its glyocogen!!!! Once digested WMS isn't WMS anymore...its JUST GLUCOSE > GLYCOGEN via glycogen synthesis.

    If WMS was some magic carb source diabetics would be popping WMS tabs instead of glucose tabs!!!

    I just love people who want to argue advanced topics when they can't even grasp the basics....
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    [QUOTE=Bobo;774067]And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you


    QUOTE]

    as far as diabetes goes, you never know. like i said previously, we need more research. stevia works wonders with my diabetic clients taking oha's or insulin. their glucose levels would skyrocket if they used other sweetners. that wold be great if wms could be used with diabetics who are athletes . other forums actualy have had diabetic guys who have done tests on glucose levels and wms with favorable results. to answer your question about it maybe not spiking insulin too much, you wouldnt have as much fat gain. as far as protein synthesis goes, whey post wms does the trick for me. also, the faster the glycogen replenishment, the faster the body can focus on protein synthesis and recovery. at least for me.
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    [QUOTE=51502112;774095]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    And please tell me why this is significant and what benefit this would have.


    I already know the answer but I want to hear it from you


    QUOTE]

    as far as diabetes goes, you never know. like i said previously, we need more research. stevia works wonders with my diabetic clients taking oha's or insulin. their glucose levels would skyrocket if they used other sweetners. that wold be great if wms could be used with diabetics who are athletes . other forums actualy have had diabetic guys who have done tests on glucose levels and wms with favorable results. to answer your question about it maybe not spiking insulin too much, you wouldnt have as much fat gain. as far as protein synthesis goes, whey post wms does the trick for me. also, the faster the glycogen replenishment, the faster the body can focus on protein synthesis and recovery. at least for me.
    You are wrong on so many levels that if you have "clients" that are diabetics, I fear for them.


    I can't remember the last time I have someone butcher some of the most basic principles and completely ignore nutritional facts as you. I'm at a loss for words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Funny, I've trained people for years, including people on the competitive level that have done just great. These people also try just about everything there is out there for curiosity's sake and I already know their opinion. Its just another fast acting carb..Will get you a fuller pump quicker? Sure...but as people who actually study in this area cna attest, pump means little to nothing except comparing starved or fed states. You can get the same with dextrose if you can take the digestive problems but the end results IS THE SAME.

    The simple fact that you make statement that "wms" stays in your muscles longer shows your complete ignorance of the most bascis and fundamental principle of nutrition...the end of product of all carb sources is the SAME THING. WMS doens't "stay" in your musles longer because its not WMS anymore...its glyocogen!!!! Once digested WMS isn't WMS anymore...its JUST GLUCOSE > GLYCOGEN via glycogen synthesis.

    If WMS was some magic carb source diabetics would be popping WMS tabs instead of glucose tabs!!!

    I just love people who want to argue advanced topics when they can't even grasp the basics....


    i not going to get in a pissing contest with you. like i said, your using valid scientific facts about carb replenishment that i wholeheartedly agree with. except that wms isnt a normal carb. im not lying about the length of time my muscles stay fuller. if i dont use it, my muscles stay less full after a workout and for a shorter period of time. thats a major diffrence in functionality between other carbs, whether you accept it or not. and i actually have an immense grasp of knowledge on the basics. the difference between our outlook is that i combine that knowledge with an open mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    i not going to get in a pissing contest with you. like i said, your using valid scientific facts about carb replenishment that i wholeheartedly agree with. except that wms isnt a normal carb. im not lying about the length of time my muscles stay fuller. if i dont use it, my muscles stay less full after a workout and for a shorter period of time. thats a major diffrence in functionality between other carbs, whether you accept it or not. and i actually have an immense grasp of knowledge on the basics. the difference between our outlook is that outlook is that i combine that knowledge with an open mind.
    Its not pissing match. Stating a derivative of corn starch isn't a normal carb is ridiculous. There isn't such a thing as a "normal" carb. They have different properties.


    You don't have a clue of the basics or you wouldn't make half the statement you've made. They simply don't make sense. WMS doesnt "stay" in your muscle. The statement itself is completely ignorant.

    Stating your muscle stay fuller and not understanding that it means jack sh!t shows you don't have an open mind, it shows you have an empty one.

    You combine that knowledge with an open mind?

    I combine mine with the real world.


    Training several diabetics right now (type I and II). Here are some blood sugar results form a type II client last week.


    Sunday March 18/07:
    Weigh in (will be checking weekly) = 266lbs
    Blood Sugar - 18mmol/L


    Monday March 19/07:
    Blood Sugar = 20mmol/L

    Blood Sugar @ end of day = 11mmol/L


    Tuesday March 20/07
    Blood Sugar = 12 mmol/L


    Wednesday March 21, 07
    Blood Sugar = 11mmol/L

    Thursday March 21/07
    Blood Sugar = 9mmol/L

    Saturday / Sunday.
    Weight @ 264
    blood sugar @ 9 mmol/L

    Weight = 264lbs
    Blood Sugar = 8.3mmol/L




    If you actually are giving advice to people, especially diabetics, you should be stopped because you don't have one clue what you are talking about.

    51502112
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    Education - High School

    Case closed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Its not pissing match. Stating a derivative of corn starch isn't a normal carb is ridiculous. There isn't such a thing as a "normal" carb. They have different properties.


    You don't have a clue of the basics or you wouldn't make half the statement you've made. They simply don't make sense. WMS doesnt "stay" in your muscle. The statement itself is completely ignorant.

    Stating your muscle stay fuller and not understanding that it means jack sh!t shows you don't have an open mind, it shows you have an empty one.

    You combine that knowledge with an open mind?

    I combine mine with the real world.


    Training several diabetics right now (type I and II). Here are some blood sugar results form a type II client last week.


    Sunday March 18/07:
    Weigh in (will be checking weekly) = 266lbs
    Blood Sugar - 18mmol/L


    Monday March 19/07:
    Blood Sugar = 20mmol/L

    Blood Sugar @ end of day = 11mmol/L


    Tuesday March 20/07
    Blood Sugar = 12 mmol/L


    Wednesday March 21, 07
    Blood Sugar = 11mmol/L

    Thursday March 21/07
    Blood Sugar = 9mmol/L

    Saturday / Sunday.
    Weight @ 264
    blood sugar @ 9 mmol/L

    Weight = 264lbs
    Blood Sugar = 8.3mmol/L




    If you actually are giving advice to people, especially diabetics, you should be stopped because you don't have one clue what you are talking about.

    51502112
    Member
    Education - High School

    Case closed.
    I love this thread...probably my all time favorite. I would rep you bobo....but there is no point to it.

    Not to change to subject, but do you have any educational degrees bobo?? im JW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    I love this thread...probably my all time favorite. I would rep you bobo....but there is no point to it.

    Not to change to subject, but do you have any educational degrees bobo?? im JW
    Yes, mainly in social sciences.

    Also took several graduate level (676) course in sports nutrition...had to get permission to get in since I wasn't in grad school.

    If people want to take WMS, go for it. Use whatever works for you. If people think its better, keep using it but in no way is WMS some magic carb that takes on extra ordinary properties over any other carbohydrate. The end results is the same....glucose.
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