Waxy Maize Starch Craze

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  1. i've just started using this and i get a real pumped feeling (in addition to my other supps i am taking - synergistically) than i had prior to using it. no bloat, not gas, and very good energy/mood!


  2. is this stuff ok for a guy on a recomp?
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  3. ya know...I was just telling someone the other day why I use oats in my PWO shake...I remember the debate with a certain cat that MADE this board what it is today....methinks you guys should search for it if you haven't yet. 2 of the industries heavy hitters having it out over the subject of PWO Nutrition...One of them changed my life.

    how much dextrose pwo there ya go....read it...learn it... live it!
    Last edited by rampage jackson; 02-06-2007 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Found the link

  4. I like WMS no bloat, not gas, thats whats important to me cornstarch,oats,maltodextrin and dextrose = bloating,and cramping not good for hard training.
    I just wish WMS would mix easier it clogs my water bottle I'm a cyclist,as far as taste I love the plain with a dash of stevia

    freezito is this stuff ok for a guy on a recomp?
    It works great for me.

    YMMV

  5. Quote Originally Posted by rampage jackson View Post
    ya know...I was just telling someone the other day why I use oats in my PWO shake...I remember the debate with a certain cat that MADE this board what it is today....methinks you guys should search for it if you haven't yet. 2 of the industries heavy hitters having it out over the subject of PWO Nutrition...One of them changed my life.

    how much dextrose pwo there ya go....read it...learn it... live it!

    such a great thread.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    You are measuring 2h and 4h increments after depleting exercise, not short term recovery (30-60 minutes). The method used was to give a 300g total (liquid carbohydrates) over 30,60,90 and 120 minutes then measure the effects. You islolated one variable without even introducing others such as pre, during nutrition as well as the addition of a fast acting protein. Those lack of variables is expressed in this statement:

    "Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks."

    Now add a protein and measure it.

    You can't say WMS is superior by isolating its effects without taking into consideration real world variables such as glycogen levels before and during (which are not even close to be depleted) and the addition of a protein as well which will have more of an effect on recovery than ANY carbohydrate drink.

    The next question you need which basically eliminates the need to split hairs about molecular size is to ask what effect does increased glycogen resynthesis rates have on protein synthesis rates? Basically none.


    EDIT: And I don't like this either. Rate limiting or not.....

    "A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates.


    I don't understand your point Bobo. If you want to recover from CARDIO, yeah - refilling your glycogen stores are important. To recover from weight training, glycogen storage is secondary. It's far from my main goal - especially if a lower volume, high intensity workout is followed (like I do). Then glycogen storage or re-storage is irrelevant.

    We want to reduce muscle breakdown and for THAT, speed is everything. The more carbs we get into the bloodsteam in the shortest amount of time after the workout (and the more carbs we have pre and peri workout), the higher we'll jack up insulin levels which means less cortisol and FAR LESS muscle breakdown. Less catabolism means more NET muscle gain.

    You can show me all the glycogen studies in the world, I couldn't care less. It's not even 5% of the importance from a WEIGHT TRAINING workout unless your workouts last 90-120 minutes. Then I'd worry about glycogen somewhat. My workouts are intense and 50-60 minutes. I don't drink pre/peri/post workout drinks for glycogen.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    I don't understand your point Bobo. If you want to recover from CARDIO, yeah - refilling your glycogen stores are important. To recover from weight training, glycogen storage is secondary. It's far from my main goal - especially if a lower volume, high intensity workout is followed (like I do). Then glycogen storage or re-storage is irrelevant.
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.

    We want to reduce muscle breakdown and for THAT, speed is everything. The more carbs we get into the bloodsteam in the shortest amount of time after the workout (and the more carbs we have pre and peri workout), the higher we'll jack up insulin levels which means less cortisol and FAR LESS muscle breakdown. Less catabolism means more NET muscle gain.

    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: [email protected].

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.

    You can show me all the glycogen studies in the world, I couldn't care less. It's not even 5% of the importance from a WEIGHT TRAINING workout unless your workouts last 90-120 minutes. Then I'd worry about glycogen somewhat. My workouts are intense and 50-60 minutes. I don't drink pre/peri/post workout drinks for glycogen.
    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.




    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: [email protected].

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.



    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.

    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.

    Your study on amino acids tells us NOTHING. Yes, amino acids promote protein synthesis. They do. The study you quote doesn't involve exercise. Yes, aminos promote anabolism. You and I both know that. Everyone by now should know that. They promote anabolism "in general" meaning whenever they are consumed. Your study demonstrates that. But what I am saying is that POST-EXERCISE, a human is a different being. Amino acids alone or with LOW GI carbs ARE NOT OPTIMAL. Will they reduce protein degradation and increase anabolism versus NO food? Absolutely. Will they give OPTIMAL results? You certainly haven't even begun to prove that. Yet I can prove my point. And that is that protein (whey only) PLUS HIGH GI carbs post workout will decrease catabolism and increase anabolism over and beyond what aminos alone will do.

    In a POST-EXERCISE state, insulin IS what drives anabolism and decreases catabolism. Everything you say is 100% correct - for the 22 hours of the day except for the 2 hours after exercise. The best proof of this is the control of Type II diabetes. A mild case of Type II D can be controlled with exercise ALONE. Mild cases don't even need much dietary intervention. High intensity exercise (and the higher the intensity, the better) creates muscles that are EXTREMELY insulin sensitive. Under normal conditions (which is what you always quote), fat cells are much more sensitive to insulin than muscle cells. This is why high protein, low-GI glycemic carbs are essential the other 22 hours to feed your muscles and not your fat cells. Any kind of spike of insulin under NORMAL conditions will feed your fat cells preferentially over muscle cells. Yet type II diabetics who have muscles that are extremely insensitive to insulin, can control their diabetes just by exercising intensely daily. This is b/c intense exercise makes muscle EXTREMELY sensistive to insulin for 60-90 minutes. THIS IS PHYSIOLOGY! And this is backed both by scientific studies AND "real-world" results.

    And contrary to what you wrote in this thread (I believe several years ago!), a high GI carb CAN make someone leaner (more muscle and less fat) than a low GI carb. Absolutely it can. A high GI carb will not only beat a low GI carb in recovery and muscle gains, post workout, but it will beat it in fat loss too! And yes, this is BACKED BY SCIENCE! The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb.

    This has not only been proven in studies, but in the real-world as well. Just look at a steroid user. High levels of testosterone (or a test-derivative (steroids)) will cause greater gains in muscle and greater losses of fat. Just look at any "kid" that starts steroids yet doesn't have enough knowledge or discipline to change their diet. They'll automatically gain some muscle and lose some fat. You also see this ALL OF THE TIME with people on LEGAL hormone (testosterone) replacement therapy. Without making ANY other changes, they put on muscle and lose fat. That's b/c higher levels of test shuttle more nutrients and calories to your muscles while "starving" fat cells.

    Have you ever seen someone on oral steroid medications for asthma or an illness? They blow up. They lose muscle like a wasting disease all the while gaining unbelievable amounts of fat. This is b/c cortico-steroids used in modern medicine for inflammation cause the body to shift towards storing calories and breaking down muscle. This is what our natural cortisol does and cortisol is released in large amounts when we workout. Cortisol output may also INCREASE in trained individuals which makes it harder to put on additional muscle the longer we've been training (over the years). This is one of the biggest benefits of anabolic steroids. They overpower cortisol and its catabolic effects.

    The pre and post workout shakes are the closest things natural athletes/bodybuilders can use to gain muscle and lose fat as fast as possible. A great pre/post workout drink can make it not only possible, but VERY PROBABLE to GAIN MUSCLE on a below maintenance calorie, fat loss diet.

    So in summary, a HIGH GI carb CAN and WILL beat a low GI carb post workout for not only building muscle, but losing bodyfat.

    As a side note, I'd like to point out I'm having this argument or discussion with you with all due respect. I'm not "yelling" at you or trashing you or trying to be disrespectful in any way. Sometimes intentions are not very clear on the internet with posts and threads and I just want to make my intentions clear that I'm just trying to make my point. I also use capitals in my writing for emphasis, not for "yelling or screaming". Also, for what it is worth, I have a bachelor and masters degree in nutrition and exercise and nutrition has been my foremost obsession for the past 18 years. I also work in this industry as a writer, trainer and practicing nutritionist. Thanks for your time...

  9. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro
    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.
    Because that's what the discussion was about with WMS.

    Your study on amino acids tells us NOTHING. Yes, amino acids promote protein synthesis. They do. The study you quote doesn't involve exercise. Yes, aminos promote anabolism. You and I both know that. Everyone by now should know that. They promote anabolism "in general" meaning whenever they are consumed. Your study demonstrates that. But what I am saying is that POST-EXERCISE, a human is a different being. Amino acids alone or with LOW GI carbs ARE NOT OPTIMAL. Will they reduce protein degradation and increase anabolism versus NO food? Absolutely. Will they give OPTIMAL results? You certainly haven't even begun to prove that. Yet I can prove my point. And that is that protein (whey only) PLUS HIGH GI carbs post workout will decrease catabolism and increase anabolism over and beyond what aminos alone will do.
    Then please prove it because the studies I have are post exercise. Plus, nobody said amino's alone.

    "Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    In a POST-EXERCISE state, insulin IS what drives anabolism and decreases catabolism.
    No, it doesn't. Do you ignore studies or do you just cherry pick the ones you believe? Maybe Layne could tell you and you would believe him since since he's getting his phd in this area? Maybe Alan will as well but I know he won't go quoting his masters degree. Insulin is a factor, not THE factor.

    Does exercise pose a different physiological scenario? Yes, because exercises increase glut4 which insulin does under NORMAL feeding patters. Its also the reason WHY insulin isn't need in large amounts. Its funny in your whole paragraph you haven't even mentioned it.


    Everything you say is 100% correct - for the 22 hours of the day except for the 2 hours after exercise. The best proof of this is the control of Type II diabetes. A mild case of Type II D can be controlled with exercise ALONE. Mild cases don't even need much dietary intervention. High intensity exercise (and the higher the intensity, the better) creates muscles that are EXTREMELY insulin sensitive. Under normal conditions (which is what you always quote), fat cells are much more sensitive to insulin than muscle cells.

    High intensity exercise, any exercise, removes the need for insulin to increase glut4 for the shuttling of nutrients. Its the bodies natural response to exercise. That's fairly basic.


    This is why high protein, low-GI glycemic carbs are essential the other 22 hours to feed your muscles and not your fat cells. Any kind of spike of insulin under NORMAL conditions will feed your fat cells preferentially over muscle cells. Yet type II diabetics who have muscles that are extremely insensitive to insulin, can control their diabetes just by exercising intensely daily. This is b/c intense exercise makes muscle EXTREMELY sensistive to insulin for 60-90 minutes. THIS IS PHYSIOLOGY! And this is backed both by scientific studies AND "real-world" results.
    Yes I know..I train several type II diabetics right now. What you are forgetting is telling me HOW it does this. Well, I told you above..partly.




    nd contrary to what you wrote in this thread (I believe several years ago!), a high GI carb CAN make someone leaner (more muscle and less fat) than a low GI carb. Absolutely it can. A high GI carb will not only beat a low GI carb in recovery and muscle gains, post workout, but it will beat it in fat loss too! And yes, this is BACKED BY SCIENCE!

    Prove it. I guess all those people who I've turned around are just lying then.



    The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb.
    Please research what increase protein synthesis rates more...carbs or aminos then see which one lowers cortisol more...carbs or aminos. Hint...its amino's.

    This has not only been proven in studies, but in the real-world as well.
    Post them...I'd love to see it. Show me people who have compared both. You cna find all sorts of people around that have dropped the High GI route and for the better.

    I'd like to see the studies too because I think I've read just about every one of them.




    So in summary, a HIGH GI carb CAN and WILL beat a low GI carb post workout for not only building muscle, but losing bodyfat.
    In summary, you're wrong IMO. There are plenty of people that have made the switch for the better.

    As a side note, I'd like to point out I'm having this argument or discussion with you with all due respect. I'm not "yelling" at you or trashing you or trying to be disrespectful in any way. Sometimes intentions are not very clear on the internet with posts and threads and I just want to make my intentions clear that I'm just trying to make my point. I also use capitals in my writing for emphasis, not for "yelling or screaming". Also, for what it is worth, I have a bachelor and masters degree in nutrition and exercise and nutrition has been my foremost obsession for the past 18 years. I also work in this industry as a writer, trainer and practicing nutritionist. Thanks for your time...
    That's fine. I've had this discussion for years and have also trained people over the years with enormous amounts of success with making a simple switch.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    We're not arguing efficiently here. I agree with you refilling glycogen stores are not important. Yet almost every study you point out (with the exception of the one above) involves glycogen replenishment. Let's BOTH forget glycogen replenishment. Let's not even discuss it at all.

    I'm not at all. I simply don't believe what you say. I've looked at the same material as you have. Its not locked away for select people to view.

    I've forward this to Alan so we can have his viewpoint as well. I'm done..won't be around
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Just look at a steroid user. High levels of testosterone (or a test-derivative (steroids)) will cause greater gains in muscle and greater losses of fat. Just look at any "kid" that starts steroids yet doesn't have enough knowledge or discipline to change their diet. They'll automatically gain some muscle and lose some fat. You also see this ALL OF THE TIME with people on LEGAL hormone (testosterone) replacement therapy. Without making ANY other changes, they put on muscle and lose fat. That's b/c higher levels of test shuttle more nutrients and calories to your muscles while "starving" fat cells.

    .

    Really? This is how testosterone works?

    I always thought it was increasing mRNA gene transcription, increasing protein syntheiss rates to a point above normal physiological levels along with supraphysiological levels of IGF-1.


    But now its because testosterone shuttle more nutrients. Got it.
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Really? This is how testosterone works?

    I always thought it was increasing mRNA gene transcription, increasing protein syntheiss rates to a point above normal physiological levels along with supraphysiological levels of IGF-1.


    But now its because testosterone shuttle more nutrients. Got it.
    I'm sorry I didn't realize I was writing for a thesis. I was referring to the NET EFFECT of testosterone.

  13. Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. [email protected]

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. [email protected]

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.
    Umm....Yes. It says the combination is better than either alone. Where is the revelation and where does the GI come into play here?


    Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise
    Elisabet Børsheim, Melanie G. Cree, Kevin D. Tipton, Tabatha A. Elliott, Asle Aarsland, and Robert R. Wolfe

    Department of Surgery, Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children-Galveston, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550

    Submitted 3 April 2003 ; accepted in final form 24 October 2003

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of ingestion of 100 g of carbohydrates on net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus protein breakdown) after resistance exercise. Two groups of eight subjects performed a resistance exercise bout (10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg presses at 80% of 1-repetition maximum) before they rested in bed for 4 h. One group (CHO) received a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates 1 h postexercise. The other group (Pla) received a noncaloric placebo drink. Leg amino acid metabolism was determined by infusion of 2H5- or 13C6-labeled phenylalanine, sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis. Drink intake did not affect arterial insulin concentration in Pla, whereas insulin increased several times after the drink in CHO (P < 0.05 vs. Pla). Arterial phenylalanine concentration fell slightly after the drink in CHO. Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour). The improved net balance in CHO was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.



    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    I'm sorry I didn't realize I was writing for a thesis. I was referring to the NET EFFECT of testosterone.
    If you are going to make an analogy, at least make one with a more accurate picture. The whole "starving fat cells and shuttling nutrients" with supra physiological doses of testosterone is a stretch by a long shot. The way in which androgen's increase lean body mass has little do with with where nutrients are shuttled but more so on how those nutrients are utilized. Increased aromatization from large doses can certainly help fat storage quite a bit.
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  16. It's discussions like these that I can partake in the knowledge of others so I can get past the hype. The high GI vs. low GI debate has been done over the years at various forums.

    I couldn't say who's right but I find Bobo's reasoning more compelling. I've moved onto oats as my pwo as opposed to dextrose which I used for creatine mono shuttling but with the advent of cee and other creatines, that reason has been removed for me. Even then I don't see how I can justify spending signifcantly more than for WMS over dextrose for just muscle fullness.

    I'm still working on my diet and regimen. I had fallen into the supplement trap but with the help of boards like these and the informed minds within. Aside from the truly dedicated, I really don't think the majority have diets/excercise in check.

    My money goes to BCAA's over WMS.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by greatgro View Post
    Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino FE.
    School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Allen House 2.13, Bathurst, NSW, Australia. [email protected]

    This investigation examined chronic alteration of the acute hormonal response associated with liquid carbohydrate (CHO) and/or essential amino acid (EAA) ingestion on hormonal and muscular adaptations following resistance training. Thirty-two untrained young men performed 12 weeks of resistance training twice a week, consuming ~675 ml of either, a 6% CHO solution, 6 g EAA mixture, combined CHO + EAA supplement or placebo (PLA). Blood samples were obtained pre- and post-exercise (week 0, 4, 8, and 12), for determination of glucose, insulin, and cortisol. 3-Methylhistidine excretion and muscle fibre cross-sectional area (fCSA) were determined pre- and post-training. Post-exercise cortisol increased (P<0.05) during each training phase for PLA. No change was displayed by EAA; CHO and CHO + EAA demonstrated post-exercise decreases (P<0.05). All groups displayed reduced pre-exercise cortisol at week 12 compared to week 0 (P<0.05). Post-exercise insulin concentrations showed no change for PLA; increases were observed for the treatment groups (P<0.05), which remained greater for CHO and CHO + EAA (P<0.001) than PLA. EAA and CHO ingestion attenuated 3-methylhistidine excretion 48 h following the exercise bout. CHO + EAA resulted in a 26% decrease (P<0.01), while PLA displayed a 52% increase (P<0.01). fCSA increased across groups for type I, IIa, and IIb fibres (P<0.05), with CHO + EAA displaying the greatest gains in fCSA relative to PLA (P<0.05). These data indicate that CHO + EAA ingestion enhances muscle anabolism following resistance training to a greater extent than either CHO or EAA consumed independently. The synergistic effect of CHO + EAA ingestion maximises the anabolic response presumably by attenuating the post-exercise rise in protein degradation.
    This study does absolutely nothing to support the claim that high-GI carbs are the superior bet postworkout.

    If you woke up in the morning, skipped your preworkout meal completely, then yeah, go ahead and build your case.

    About WMS, here's another tidbit for ya, you can go ahead & laugh at the WMS consumers while you save your bucks:

    "Despite previous reports of faster gastric emptying and glycogen resynthesis suggesting enhanced glucose delivery, a markedly hypotonic HMW glucose polymer solution had no effect on exogenous and endogenous substrate oxidation rates during exercise, relative to a LMW glucose polymer solution. These data are consistent with there being no effect of carbohydrate structure or solution osmolality or viscosity on exogenous glucose oxidation and that ingested glucose polymers can only be oxidized on average up to 1.0 g.min during exercise." [Rowland, et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Sep;37(9):1510-6.]

    ^^During-training high molecular weight CHO doesn't influence jack. Post-training high molecular weight CHO has been shown to increase rate of glycogen synthesis under the following conditions irrelevant to us: a) after complete glycogen depletion, minus a pre-workout meal, b) in the absence of protein or aminos, which can undoubtedly alter the transport behavior of the solution, c) a 300g dose was used.

    WMS has zero micronutrition just like dex, and it's more expensive than oats, which are micronutrient-rich. How bout we do the math here...

    Years ago when I debated Bobo on my stance that high-GI was necessary postworkout, I neglected to realize the fact that all studies supporting high-GI postW were done on overnight fasted subjects minus a preworkout meal. If you nailed down your preW nutrition, the necessary substrates will already be absorbed into circulation when you need them. The mere presence of preW nutrition removes the urgency of quick substrates postW.

  18. this thread is absolutely incredible for learning about how the body reacts to carbs!

  19. wow, good first post. Lets just ignore all scientific studies, what the hell, why not. Science never explains anything screw it.


    MOD EDIT: One post wonder. IP's reveal a lot

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Chemist2234 View Post
    wow, good first post. Lets just ignore all scientific studies, what the hell, why not. Science never explains anything screw it.


    MOD EDIT: One post wonder. IP's reveal a lot

    my point was that wms does a lot more than the typical carb. it keeps your muscles fuller way longer than the others. it lets me recovery way better than any other supp. the pump is long lasting and phenominal. 70 g pre or during with 70g post . add 15g citrulline malate pre and you will have the best workouts, pumps and recovery. all of this science you guys are talking about is based on preexisting carb data. wms obviously has different properties than the rest. science wil bear this out at some point. real world results is what im after. you should try wms for awhile instead of conjecturing on something you never used. and being nasty about it to boot. just trying to help.

  21. if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not? i constantly eat low gi carbs t/o the day, and the wms properties still occur whenever i use it. not as profound as post workout, but still there. regular carbs cant do that. why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs? all im saying is we need more research on it. we need to ask different questions. i used to work for abbott doing clinical trials. its easy to mess up a study [ way too many to mention here] if its not set up correctly. you also find groundbreaking properties quite by accident, and you cant even attribute them to a known process. even psychotropic meds are not fully understood as far as how they work. their methods of action are only explained so far. just something to think about.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That people are still concerned with speed when its almost irrelevant if you simply eat correctly.



    Excellent point my friend.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That WAS my point. Glycogen storage within normal parameters ISN'T that important.




    Wrong. Amino acids are the main nutrient signals for protein synthesis, NOT insulin. And speed when it comes to amino acids is important. Guess what also triggers an insulin response and actually eliminates cortisol....amino acids. IF you are worries so much about preventing catabolism then increasing rates of protein synthesis should be your number one priority. Insulin is mainly anti-catabolic in small amounts. Amino acids exert anabolic activity.


    Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
    Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

    Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: [email protected].

    Abstract

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

    Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise

    " In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low, and a concentration of the hormone that approximates that observed in fasting animals is sufficient for maximal stimulation.



    In your exuberance to flex you intellectual muscle and to prove me wrong, you have only reinforced my point that refilling glycogen store as fast as possible isn't important. I've been saying it for years.
    Another great post bobo!

  24. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? w

    I get the same results when I take people off of high GI pre and post workout and put them on high GL/ mod GI whole foods.


    What does your experience tell you? That taking 140g of a fast acting carb increases glycogen stores. Big, ****ing whoop....its nothing revolutionary AT ALL.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs?

    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not?
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the the end product (glucose) from WMS is magically different then the glucose form dextrose or maltodextrin or every other "regular carb". If you believe that one, I have a bridge for sale...

    Its magic glucose then magic glycogen.


    how long have yo been using it?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Because the faster it enters the bloodstream the faster insulin will shuttle it to other areas (liver, muscles, fat storage, etc...). Then after that I suggest you look at what effects speed has on protein synthesis and glycogen resynthesis...here is a hint. Not much....

    Once again, speed is irrelevant.


    not just post workout. t/o the day after after taking it my glucose levels are normal. with other carbs it would be elevated.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by 51502112 View Post
    how long have yo been using it?

    I had around 10 clients using it. How many have you had?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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