I've been searching in vain for my answer, couldn't find it...

What are the benifits and/or drawbacks of adding some type of liquid (non-solid) fat to pre and post workout drinks or meals? Stuff like extra virgin olive oil, cocunut oil, fish oil caps, etc...

what are you hoping to accomplish with this?

its a no-no since you are looking to fill your cells with glycogen not fat

Originally Posted by glenihan

what are you hoping to accomplish with this?

its a no-no since you are looking to fill your cells with glycogen not fat

I'm assuming then you haven't read some of bobo's posts in regards to gylcogen "depletion" (or lack thereof) during excercise?

There are several things that can be accomplished with addition of fats. Many healthy dietary fats help release stored body fat. A nice chunk of energy from weightlifting comes from intramuscular triglycerides and ffa. So it's reasonable that consuming healthy fats before a weight training session would increase both workout energy and fat burning. Not to mention healthy fats's effect on natural testosterone. And considering that the body is a fat burning mode post-workout, consuming a substance that will help the body release even stored adipose seems good to me. Healthy fats have also been shown to enhance recovery as well. ANother reason they might be a good addition to a post-workout meal/drink.

I'm simply looking for more information/experience/testimonials on the use of fat around workout times.

I think it's a very overlooked nutrient by many of us.

sounds like a good log is inorder! Maybe you should come up with meal/shake that is easy to make an start a month or 2 log! I would read it!

Originally Posted by Jeffrw

I'm assuming then you haven't read some of bobo's posts in regards to gylcogen "depletion" (or lack thereof) during excercise?

Could you point to the posts you're referring to where he specifically refers to the use of FATS in regard to glycogen "depletion?" I've never heard anyone with more than a rudimentary knowledge of nutrition advocating fats pre- or PWO, including Bobo. Perhaps you have more recent data, however.

Some useful data can be found below (and make sure you check out posts 937 and 961):

Pre, During, & Postworkout Nutrition. - Page 32

Originally Posted by t-bone2

Could you point to the posts you're referring to where he specifically refers to the use of FATS in regard to glycogen "depletion?" I've never heard anyone with more than a rudimentary knowledge of nutrition advocating fats pre- or PWO, including Bobo. Perhaps you have more recent data, however.

Some useful data can be found below (and make sure you check out posts 937 and 961):

Pre, During, & Postworkout Nutrition. - Page 32

In like every thread he argues against using sugar and high GI carbs and talks how we don't get depleted as much as we think, he usually slips in that because of the nature of weighlifting we get the majority of energy from ffa. I'll post a link in a minute.

*EDIT* Good link, nice read. However in regards to specific fats (I don't think I saw any mentioned in that link, just the generic term "fat") I am refering to an MCT pre-workout (like extra virgin coconut oil) and olive oil pwo.

Here's what the clown said:

"The body isn't starved of carbohydrates after a workout. Carb depletion isn't achieved in a 60 minute workout, its achieved over long periods of carb restrictions. Weight training utilizes and oxidized FFA's for energy much more than blood glucose.

The replenishment of glycogen (not glucose) isn't a priority unless you have further activity. The need for high GI or large amounts isn't necessary at all as glut 4 is increased regardless.

Here's the linkThe perfect postworkout protein protocol

i don't see how that translates into using fats near your workout .. those oxidized FFA's were already in your body ... fat is too inefficient of an energy source to give you extra energy for a workout if its just consumed .. it really slows down digestion .. this means any protein and carbs consumed post workout will take longer to get into your system and be utilized .. totally negates the purpose of using whey protein

Originally Posted by glenihan

i don't see how that translates into using fats near your workout .. those oxidized FFA's were already in your body ... fat is too inefficient of an energy source to give you extra energy for a workout if its just consumed .. it really slows down digestion .. this means any protein and carbs consumed post workout will take longer to get into your system and be utilized .. totally negates the purpose of using whey protein

Liquid fats don't seem slow digestion. And MCT's are easily used for energy. However if you have any information that says otherwise, it would be appreciated. That is why I started this thread.

Something like flax won't slow down the digestion of a whey shake. It will just rise to the top and separate from it as you digest the whey.

Well, my own opinion is that fats, whether liquid or solid have no place in Pre/Post WO nutrition. On the Bobo side, I am not sure where you would have heard him say that, I believe actually he has stated a few times his disagreement with having fats anywhere near Pre/Post WO nutrition.

In terms of the FFAs, he was speaking of glycolytic stores last for approximately 30-50 seconds of a lift, and oxidation takes place until failure of the muscle is reached. He was speaking about FFAs b/c the common belief is that our body is completely depleted of glycogen after a workout, when in fact it is not. That doesn't mean you should ingest fats Pre/Post-WO however, you read the posts/research wrong.

I eat some healthy fats in my preworkout meal (usually almonds). I eat my preworkout meal about 90-120 mins before working out and take my preworkout shake 45 mins before working out. I just use Whey/Oats in my shake and I think this is optimal.

The point I was trying to make is the metabolization of fats and carbohydrates are not in the same in so far as providing your body with fuel before a workout.

Bobo has said that liquid fats don't add to the processing time of a meal.
He said saturated fats were the "takes 10 hours to digest" fats always cited.

Adding fat calories to meals after exercise does not alter glucose tolerance.

* Fox AK,
* Kaufman AE,
* Horowitz JF.

Division of Kinesiology, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2214, USA.

A single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days, and dietary carbohydrate ingested after exercise alters the magnitude and duration of this effect. Although increasing systemic fatty acid availability is associated with insulin resistance, it is uncertain whether increasing dietary fat availability after exercise alters the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity. The purpose of this study was to determine whether adding fat calories to meals after exercise alters glucose tolerance the next day. Seven healthy men cycled 90 min at 66 +/- 2% peak oxygen uptake followed by a maximum of five high-intensity intervals. During the hours after exercise, subjects ingested three meals containing either low-fat (5% energy from fat) or high-fat (45% energy from fat) foods (Low-Fat and High-Fat groups, respectively). Each diet contained the same amount of carbohydrate and protein. An oral glucose tolerance test was performed the next morning. Muscle glycogen and intramuscular triglyceride (IMTG) concentrations were measured in muscle biopsy samples obtained immediately before exercise and the next morning. The day after exercise, muscle glycogen concentration was identical in High-Fat and Low-Fat (393 +/- 70 and 379 +/- 38 mmol/kg dry wt). At the same time, IMTG concentration was approximately 20% greater during High-Fat compared with Low-Fat (42.5 +/- 3.4 and 36.3 +/- 3.3 mmol/kg dry wt; P < 0.05). Despite the addition of approximately 165 g of fat to meals after exercise ( approximately 1,500 kcal) and a resultant elevation in IMTG concentration, glucose tolerance was identical in High-Fat and Low-Fat (composite index: 8.7 +/- 1.0 and 8.4 +/- 1.0). In summary, as long as meals ingested in the hours after exercise contain the same carbohydrate content, the addition of approximately 1500 kcal from fat to these meals did not alter muscle glycogen resynthesis or glucose tolerance the next day.

PMID: 14978010 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

edit: citations

Originally Posted by rkieltyk

A single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days, and dietary carbohydrate ingested after exercise alters the magnitude and duration of this effect. Although increasing systemic fatty acid availability is associated with insulin resistance, it is uncertain whether increasing dietary fat availability after exercise alters the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity. The purpose of this study was to determine whether adding fat calories to meals after exercise alters glucose tolerance the next day. Seven healthy men cycled 90 min at 66 +/- 2% peak oxygen uptake followed by a maximum of five high-intensity intervals. During the hours after exercise, subjects ingested three meals containing either low-fat (5% energy from fat) or high-fat (45% energy from fat) foods (Low-Fat and High-Fat groups, respectively). Each diet contained the same amount of carbohydrate and protein. An oral glucose tolerance test was performed the next morning. Muscle glycogen and intramuscular triglyceride (IMTG) concentrations were measured in muscle biopsy samples obtained immediately before exercise and the next morning. The day after exercise, muscle glycogen concentration was identical in High-Fat and Low-Fat (393 +/- 70 and 379 +/- 38 mmol/kg dry wt). At the same time, IMTG concentration was approximately 20% greater during High-Fat compared with Low-Fat (42.5 +/- 3.4 and 36.3 +/- 3.3 mmol/kg dry wt; P < 0.05). Despite the addition of approximately 165 g of fat to meals after exercise ( approximately 1,500 kcal) and a resultant elevation in IMTG concentration, glucose tolerance was identical in High-Fat and Low-Fat (composite index: 8.7 +/- 1.0 and 8.4 +/- 1.0). In summary, as long as meals ingested in the hours after exercise contain the same carbohydrate content, the addition of approximately 1500 kcal from fat to these meals did not alter muscle glycogen resynthesis or glucose tolerance the next day.

Great study, two things though. 1) I said nothing about fats, liquid or not, having any inhibitory effects on glycogenesis, and that is not my quam with fats Pre/Post WO. 2) You cited a study which focused on aerobic activity which entails a different response in the body in terms of FFA oxidation and glycogenesis than weighlifting. Also, to harken back to point one, the study does not deal with the main issue of lipid ingestion Pre-WO in so far as body composition consequences (or more specifically the processes therein). So while the study has some applicability, there is not much in terms of the application we are talking about.

Fats are just not the ideal energy source for our application, and can have some negative effects and should not be used for Pre/Post WO nutrition IMO.
P.S. You should also cite studies when you bring them up.

For me it depends on when I work out. If it's an AM workout no fat Pre/Post, if it's a evening workout I will have it in my pre-workout meal not in PWO though. That's just because I generally try to eat carbs early in the day and fats in the evening.

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

P.S. You should also cite studies when you bring them up.

yea, sorry about that, i had a couple studies open and i copied and pasted the wrong researchers and title of the study, then had to go to class, ill fix it.

also, wouldnt the high intensity intervals be considered anerobic?

Originally Posted by rkieltyk

yea, sorry about that, i had a couple studies open and i copied and pasted the wrong researchers and title of the study, then had to go to class, ill fix it.

also, wouldnt the high intensity intervals be considered anerobic?

Yes, but the 90 min base exercise wasn't intervals.

And it's no biggie obviously, just when you cite people can research further if they choose.

In most cases, I really don't think a small amount of fat is gonna be detrimental either pre or postworkout. It's a matter of proportion. If fat is the dominant macro on either end, then I'd say you're doing thing ass-backwards.

Originally Posted by alan aragon

In most cases, I really don't think a small amount of fat is gonna be detrimental either pre or postworkout. It's a matter of proportion. If fat is the dominant macro on either end, then I'd say you're doing thing ass-backwards.

The voice of reason.

I don't see why some people feel that any more than a nanogram of fat in a pre/post WO meal should be avoided like the plague.

heck,theres a million training and dietary myths that have been and continue to be blown out of the water and shown to be false,so its always good to keep an open mind
personally the biggest thing i see flawed with this would be(again this is me personally and my stomach)the fact that even thinking about drinking oil or any other type of fat either pre or especially post workout makes me wanna hurl.noooo thank you

Originally Posted by Jeffrw

Liquid fats don't seem slow digestion. And MCT's are easily used for energy. However if you have any information that says otherwise, it would be appreciated. That is why I started this thread.

Fats slow down digestion.

Liquid fats, solid fats, it doesn't matter, they're all liquid fats by the time they make it to the intestine.

If taken in abundance, it becomes more feasible for them to skip the absorption step and leave the body (to put it cleanly). So taking pre/post workout fats will not only slow absorbtion, but hinder it as well.

That isn't what Bobo said, sinner.

Originally Posted by Nitrox

The voice of reason.

I don't see why some people feel that any more than a nanogram of fat in a pre/post WO meal should be avoided like the plague.

I personally never said anything like that, merely pointing out Fats are not the optimal Pre/Post-WO nutrition energy source, and if too much is present on a consistent basis you could have some negative consequences.

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

I personally never said anything like that, merely pointing out Fats are not the optimal Pre/Post-WO nutrition energy source, and if too much is present on a consistent basis you could have some negative consequences.

Wasnt pointing fingers. Just mentioning that some seem to go to extremes to preclude any dietary fat from their pre/post workout meals.

Originally Posted by Nitrox

Wasnt pointing fingers. Just mentioning that some seem to go to extremes to preclude any dietary fat from their pre/post workout meals.

Ahh gotcha. Sorry for the assumption.

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

I personally never said anything like that, merely pointing out Fats are not the optimal Pre/Post-WO nutrition energy source, and if too much is present on a consistent basis you could have some negative consequences.

I'm sorry but I never meant to mean that fats would be the "optimal" energy source....just one type of energy source.

hehe

Why Natty PB before Bed? (Oils don't slow absorbtion)

Making My Own BCAA Pre/During WO Cocktail (Fats around your workout)