Point of diminishing returns for protein intake.

[ArnoldIsMyIdol]

I am reading a book titled "Anabolic Steroids and the Athlete" By William Taylor. This book has a table that shows muscle gain based on protein intake for a 150lb man, either on steroids or not.

Dr Taylor indicates in this table, that a 150lb non steroid user will not gain anymore muscle by increasing protein over 105 grams a day; or for the same 150lb man on heavy steroids (5+ times greater than clinical dose), will not gain more by consuming more than 280 grams a day.

He also says that guy #1, will take 225-300 days to add 10lbs lean mass, while the guy on heavy steroids can add 10lbs in 30-45 days.

Anyone care to share their opinions on this?

 

[flytrapcan]

I know I've never needed large amounts of protein, let's say .5/lb. However, I do see and feel the benefits of increasing to at least 1/lb.

 

[blzr]

I feel that I need at least 1g/lb per day. I say this because for most of my life I considered myself to be a VERY hardgainer, but this was when my protein intake was about were you are describing.

Then I decided to make an effort to increase my protein to at least 1-1.5g/lb per day and what a difference it made. I went from making no gains at all to beating all of my PR's in just a few months of consistant higher protein.

That's been my experience.

 

[Rostam]

Is the table of Taylor based on any study or experience?

 

[Jayhawkk]

Wouldn't there be issues with going by a chart like that and using those strict numbers when genetics, muscle mass,metabolism etc, would raise or lower these amounts?

I could see these as general starting points and to go from there in stages to see how your body reacts and the results you see. If the statistics were that cut and dry then pretty much every BBer would be on the same plans/ They invest too much time and research and trial and error to let something like this just pass em by if there was real merit to this.

 

[SHADOW2492]

The only real scientific documents I have seen on the matter say 1.5 grams PER KILO ,so 1.5 grams per 2.2 pounds. I believe that is where the 1.5 gram per pound thing came from someone probably read per Kilo and mixed up and now practically every body builder and weight lifter is using more protein than their body can use.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Again, I doubt that every bodybuilder out there, some of which have degrees in these fields of study, would allow something to skip by them. I know to some that more is better in every aspect of life but I doubt all are this way.

 

[SHADOW2492]

Again, I doubt that every bodybuilder out there, some of which have degrees in these fields of study, would allow something to skip by them. I know to some that more is better in every aspect of life but I doubt all are this way.

ok then show me one medical study that shows over 1.5 grams per KG is beneficial. If you type protein intake or soemthing along that lines you will see many many sites talking about 1.5 grams per kg. I have a new england journal of medicine document about testosterone enanthate, which the doctors put the people on 1.5 g per kg for growth. So please tell me if this isnt true why would the leading medical journal in the WORLD do it wrong?

Also I didnt say every , I said almost every, most people I would consider more experienced than me, still make this claim. Taking more than 1.6 grams per kg could increase the risk of renal degeneration and heart disease and cancers.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

In my diet, I am getting around 350+ grams of protein a day. Is that more than what is being discussed as neccessary here? Yes. However, if I replaced all those calories derived from protein with calories from carbs, I would be fat, I know this because I have tried. So for me it is less about the grams of protein and more about the calories themselves.

 

[SHADOW2492]

In my diet, I am getting around 350+ grams of protein a day. Is that more than what is being discussed as neccessary here? Yes. However, if I replaced all those calories derived from protein with calories from carbs, I would be fat, I know this because I have tried. So for me it is less about the grams of protein and more about the calories themselves.

I was just pointing out this fact.Like you I would rather have too much protein than to little, I am sure most people would agree. I may not be as heavy as you so I dont need as many calories, and I dont really have a fat problem.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Oh yeah, I understand what you were saying, that post was just more in general terms that I eat so much protein just because I need the cals. And you probably are heavier then me, I just have to eat like a beast because I am, to be cliche, a "hard gainer"..So I have to pound back 4000kcals+ at 172

 

[SHADOW2492]

Oh yeah, I understand what you were saying, that post was just more in general terms that I eat so much protein just because I need the cals. And you probably are heavier then me, I just have to eat like a beast because I am, to be cliche, a "hard gainer"..So I have to pound back 4000kcals+ at 172

HA you got 2 pounds on me. I was a HARD gainer, until I bought this muscle juice 2544, and ate my regular meals but added one full serving of this stuff. I went from 150 in october to 175 last month without much fat gain, mind you I was lifting like nuts doing 15 miles of bike per day, have good genetics.

Im weighing in at 170 on the dot now, got sick didnt eat for 7 days and lost 15 pounds but managed to get to 170 again fairly quick.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Nice work man, keep given er. Yeah I'm actually only 160 in those pics, so I'm quite a bit fuller/wider/thicker but around the same BF%

 

[Jayhawkk]

I probably didn't make myself clear in what I wasy trying to say, I do that sometimes

I agree that there is too much and probably a time when you trade those gains off for more side effects than it's worth but the table set in stone is the part i'm having problems with.

I don't think you can put in writing as a hard fact that If your weight is here and you on AAS, this is your soft cap on protein useage. I personally believe there are too many variables to safely or effectively use it for more than a guidline.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

:goodpost:
..Though, it would be nice for somone like Bobo or likewise to chime in with more than one study, or something besides anecdotal evidence.

 

[SHADOW2492]

:goodpost:

..Though, it would be nice for somone like Bobo or likewise to chime in with more than one study, or something besides anecdotal evidence.

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men
Shalender Bhasin, M.D., Thomas W. Storer, Ph.D., Nancy Berman, Ph.D., Carlos Callegari, M.D., Brenda Clevenger, B.A., Jeffrey Phillips, M.D., Thomas J. Bunnell, B.A., Ray Tricker, Ph.D., Aida Shirazi, R.Ph., and Richard Casaburi, Ph.D., M.D. Standardization of Protein and Energy Intake

Two weeks before day 1, the men were instructed to begin following a standardized daily diet containing 36 kcal per kilogram of body weight, 1.5 g of protein per kilogram, and 100 percent of the recommended daily allowance of vitamins, minerals, and trace elements. Compliance with the diet was verified every four weeks by three-day records of food consumption. The dietary intake was adjusted every two weeks on the basis of changes in body weight.

Treatment

The men received either 600 mg of testosterone enanthate in sesame oil or placebo intramuscularly each week for 10 weeks in the Clinical Research Center. This dose is six times higher than the dose usually given as replacement therapy in men with hypogonadism and is therefore supraphysiologic. Doses as high as 300 mg per week have been given to normal men for 16 to 24 weeks without major toxic effects.

The men who took the diet exercise and testosterone gained a average of 6.2 KG of fat free lean body mass.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/335/1/1
you have to register. I dont feel like downloading the PDF and uploading it right now I have to eat alot. Chances are with the 10-15 PHDers on that list they would give the optimum amount of protein the body could utilize.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

:goodpost:
.. to chime in with more than one study, or something besides anecdotal evidence.

lol..I actually looked that up and referenced it when you said that, I was actually looking for something additional..Can't base an entire belief about a fundemental BB'ing proccess off one study mang.

 

[Jstrong20]

I already know how much protein my body needs to grow. I've tried from 200-500 and found I need at least 300 g to grow and 350-400 is much better. Their is no way a chart can ever have an exact number for everybody on the planet.

 

[lifthardheavy]

ok then show me one medical study that shows over 1.5 grams per KG is beneficial. If you type protein intake or soemthing along that lines you will see many many sites talking about 1.5 grams per kg. I have a new england journal of medicine document about testosterone enanthate, which the doctors put the people on 1.5 g per kg for growth. So please tell me if this isnt true why would the leading medical journal in the WORLD do it wrong?

Last year that same journal published a study that said most NFL players are overweight because their BMI is very high. Imagine that, using the BMI scale on football players.

So much for the credibility of the "leading medical journal in the world".

 

[doggzj]

Mullet has it on the dot for me. It's about total cals, not about the cals themselves. I like to eat the carb level that gives me consistant energy, add in the amount of fat I'm eating on the diet, and the rest is protein. Remember, your body can convert excess protein to energy if required.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Mullet has it on the dot for me. It's about total cals, not about the cals themselves. I like to eat the carb level that gives me consistant energy, add in the amount of fat I'm eating on the diet, and the rest is protein. Remember, your body can convert excess protein to energy if required.

Exactly. Like, I don't shoot for x amount of suggested protein, I experiment to find the daily values for each macro that work for me the best in both calories and the split of those calories. It has just so happened that my split ends up being way more protein then 'needed' or suggested, but like he said for me it's about the calories.

 

[Nitrox]

Mullet has it on the dot for me. It's about total cals, not about the cals themselves. I like to eat the carb level that gives me consistant energy, add in the amount of fat I'm eating on the diet, and the rest is protein. Remember, your body can convert excess protein to energy if required.

Keep in mind that protein has the highest thermogenic effect of the three main macronutrients. Some allowances should be made for this in your calorie counting. I find that when I increase my carb ratio at the expense of protein I need less total calories to gain weight than with a higher protein ratio.

 

[CHAPS]

If i'm training naturally 1g per lb of bodyweight and if enhanced 1.5g's per lb of bodyweight.

 

[BigVrunga]

I think jacking protien up to 400+g for short periods can have a positive effect on growth, it seems to for me. I usually hover around 1 - 1.5 g/lb generally.

BV

 

[ArnoldIsMyIdol]

I still don't see why someone would need so much even if on steroids. I mean if you consider that a pound of muscle is like 70% water anyway, so theoretically, 135 grams above maintenice protein should provide enough to gain a pound of muscle a day. Even taken into account the PER this should be plenty of protein right? Even if you are on heavy steroids, can you really gain a pound a day (I mean a pound of REAL muscle, not water)?

 

[UHCougar05]

I still don't see why someone would need so much even if on steroids. I mean if you consider that a pound of muscle is like 70% water anyway, so theoretically, 135 grams above maintenice protein should provide enough to gain a pound of muscle a day. Even taken into account the PER this should be plenty of protein right? Even if you are on heavy steroids, can you really gain a pound a day (I mean a pound of REAL muscle, not water)?

A pound of muscle a day would be a bit of a stretch, but then again most of those who are enhanced are (or should be) looking at the long term, and rapid gains are often hard to hold on to. I would take a look at the idea of beating the PTOR (Protein Turnover Ratio) that ALR talks about in BTPB. His ideas make sense in the fact that you need to ingest more protein than your body breaks down to stay in a positive nitrogen balance. Of course, he also bases this on the amount of LBM you have and not just standard weight. It's a pretty interesting idea and gives a bit of food for thought on the subject.

 

[WannaGro]

A pound of muscle a day would be a bit of a stretch, but then again most of those who are enhanced are (or should be) looking at the long term, and rapid gains are often hard to hold on to. I would take a look at the idea of beating the PTOR (Protein Turnover Ratio) that ALR talks about in BTPB. His ideas make sense in the fact that you need to ingest more protein than your body breaks down to stay in a positive nitrogen balance. Of course, he also bases this on the amount of LBM you have and not just standard weight. It's a pretty interesting idea and gives a bit of food for thought on the subject.

I agree with this too, I base all of my numbers off of LBM and not total body weight, why count fat weight when its not useing the calories for anything positive. Other than to store those calories that you alotted for it. This is just me and I have found that this has worked the best in terms of bulking basically year round and staying quite lean at the same time.

 

[Nitrox]

I still don't see why someone would need so much even if on steroids. I mean if you consider that a pound of muscle is like 70% water anyway, so theoretically, 135 grams above maintenice protein should provide enough to gain a pound of muscle a day. Even taken into account the PER this should be plenty of protein right? Even if you are on heavy steroids, can you really gain a pound a day (I mean a pound of REAL muscle, not water)?

Well we also have the whole psychological side of things; if a little is good, then more is better.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

I still don't see why someone would need so much even if on steroids. I mean if you consider that a pound of muscle is like 70% water anyway, so theoretically, 135 grams above maintenice protein should provide enough to gain a pound of muscle a day. Even taken into account the PER this should be plenty of protein right? Even if you are on heavy steroids, can you really gain a pound a day (I mean a pound of REAL muscle, not water)?

Let me break it down for you this way. The current level of kcals I take in daily was reached through experimenting both with the macronutrient ratios, and the total calories injested daily. I found I need a certain amount of calories to grow. I have also found that if I go over a certain ratio of Pro/Carbs I begin to accumulate fat in areas I do not wish to. So, given my current daily intake, if I were to eat 135 grams above maintenance for protein and fill in the rest with carbs I would be fat. I have never looked at it as I needed x amount of protein and x amount of carbs. I have just discovered the amount of kcals I need daily to grow, and the ratio of protein to carbs that has facilitated that proccess while staying lean.