Nutrition and Health Roundtable

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    You're forgetting a few key points here, man. Red blood cells require glucose as do specific areas of the brain. Not only that, but the nervous system also heavily relies on glucose as fuel. Those require about 500kcals of glucose to operate efficiently. Yes, ketones can be used as energy efficiently throughout the body but certain systems REQUIRE glucose, no two ways about it. Fatty acids are converted to Acetyl CoA and cannot make glucose, ketones yes but not glucose. Therefore, when on keto diets the only glucose source you're getting is from deamination of protein or from Glycerol, which can be converted to glucose or to pyruvate (then Acetyl CoA) but the rate that Glycerol (due to most fatty acids only containing one glycerol molecule) converts is minor. Making the sacrificing of protein (or high intake thereof) one of the only significant sources of glucose production and even then only certain amino acids can be converted to pyruvate (pyruvate -> glucose) others favor Acetyl CoA or go directly into the TCA cycle which can later be used for glucose.

    All that being said, I'm not entirely sold that the body can "sufficiently" produce enough glucose to fuel the systems that only accept it as fuel.

    BTW I used all those studies you put up showing keto diets as positive findings in defense of keto diets with my nutrition teacher. Thanks
    Amount of glucose needed changes when keto adapted
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Amount of glucose needed changes when keto adapted
    Any references for that?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Amount of glucose needed changes when keto adapted
    Within the brain, nervous system and red blood cells? Color me interested, I'd also be very interested in seeing some evidence that this occurs.
    The Physique Biochemist
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    You're forgetting a few key points here, man. Red blood cells require glucose as do specific areas of the brain. Not only that, but the nervous system also heavily relies on glucose as fuel. Those require about 500kcals of glucose to operate efficiently. Yes, ketones can be used as energy efficiently throughout the body but certain systems REQUIRE glucose, no two ways about it. Fatty acids are converted to Acetyl CoA and cannot make glucose, ketones yes but not glucose. Therefore, when on keto diets the only glucose source you're getting is from deamination of protein or from Glycerol, which can be converted to glucose or to pyruvate (then Acetyl CoA) but the rate that Glycerol (due to most fatty acids only containing one glycerol molecule) converts is minor. Making the sacrificing of protein (or high intake thereof) one of the only significant sources of glucose production and even then only certain amino acids can be converted to pyruvate (pyruvate -> glucose) others favor Acetyl CoA or go directly into the TCA cycle which can later be used for glucose.

    All that being said, I'm not entirely sold that the body can "sufficiently" produce enough glucose to fuel the systems that only accept it as fuel.

    BTW I used all those studies you put up showing keto diets as positive findings in defense of keto diets with my nutrition teacher. Thanks
    A body can produce sufficient glucose from non-glucose sources (does a Lion eat Grass?) in order to supply the brain with adequete fuel. There is no need for Carbs.

    Lactate is converted to pyruvate which can subsequently be used to produce glucose and likewise odd chain fatty acids produce succinyl COA which also produces glucose.

    Acetic acid (from acetyl COA) combine with pyruvate to make glucose.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Amount of glucose needed changes when keto adapted
    Some studies: http://www.jissn.com/content/1/2/7
    Keto diets neuroprotective: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21872440
    2 studies which show the brain can use certain ketones as fuel: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23736643 AND http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22879057

    That JISSN study is a good read if you have the time.

    Not related but interesting exert:
    "However, serum lipids generally improve with the low-carbohydrate diet, especially the triglyceride and HDL measurements. In sharp contrast, high-carbohydrate diets, which reduce high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and raise triglyceride levels, exacerbate the metabolic manifestations of the insulin resistance syndrome [18]."
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Any references for that?
    I've posted some.

    Exert from JISSN study:

    However, the body limits glucose utilization to reduce the need for gluconeogenesis. In the liver in the well-fed state, acetyl CoA formed during the β-oxidation of fatty acids is oxidized to CO2 and H2O in the citric acid cycle. However, when the rate of mobilization of fatty acids from adipose tissue is accelerated, as, for example, during very low carbohydrate intake, the liver converts acetyl CoA into ketone bodies: Acetoacetate and 3-hydroxybutyrate. The liver cannot utilize ketone bodies because it lacks the mitochondrial enzyme succinyl CoA:3-ketoacid CoA transferase required for activation of acetoacetate to acetoacetyl CoA [3]. Therefore, ketone bodies flow from the liver to extra-hepatic tissues (e.g., brain) for use as a fuel;
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by booneman77 View Post
    Over the years I've done both setups... A quick PWO shake immediately after as well as nothing until a whole food meal 1hr or so later... I don't notice much difference either way but since I love to cram food and drink into my mouth as often as possible, I prefer the shake, then meal, then another, etc... I do find that during a cut, the post workout shake is an easy few hundred cals to remove and I don't seem to feel any difference as far as "extra" muscle loss.
    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    I train faste and I'm routinely not hungry after my workout for about 2 hours

    I take intra bcaa and post workout bcaas. Then more bcaas 2-3 hours later if I'm my hungry and eat my food when I'm hungry I've noticed good leaning and recovery this way

    Plus I yak if I eat prior to the gym
    Crazy how different the protocols are across the board. I tend to follow old gym bro lore and still get down a shake within 15-30 minutes but that isn't because I feel my 'gains' will be hindered, I just prefer it this way lol.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    The body can produce sufficient glucose from non-glucose sources (does a Lion eat Grass?) in order to supply the brain with adequete fuel. There is no need for Carbs.

    Lactate is converted to pyruvate which can subsequently be used to produce glucose and likewise odd chain fatty acids produce succinyl COA which also produces glucose.

    Acetic acid (from acetyl COA) combine with pyruvate to make glucose.
    "Does a lion eat grass" doesn't really apply to humans considering humans have evolved to use their brains differently than Lions and am quite sure have different nervous systems.

    Lactate -> pyruvate conversion rate is 10:1. That provides a sufficient source of glucose? Pyruvate also converts downstream to Acetyl CoA or upstream to glucose. There is no guarantee that the synthesized pyruvate-> glucose will happen.

    "Acetic acid (from acetyl COA) combine with pyruvate to make glucose. "

    Which is all well and good but that conversion still requires pyruvate, which can after a number of processes be synthesized via glycerol. This occurs at an extremely limited rate due to the makeup of triglycerides or more specifically the small amount of glycerol yielded. 95% of the content within triglycerides (5% glycerol by weight) do not make glucose.

    There is no need for carbs at all. That's a slightly irresponsible statement.
    The Physique Biochemist
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  8. I like carbs. They make my belly and my muscles full
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    I like carbs. They make my belly and my muscles full
    Chia swole as a mofo!
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  10. Fun and relevant word: gluconeogenesis.


    You don't need to eat carbs, hence this nifty metabolic process.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post

    Therefore, when on keto diets the only glucose source you're getting is from deamination of protein or from Glycerol, which can be converted to glucose or to pyruvate (then Acetyl CoA) but the rate that Glycerol (due to most fatty acids only containing one glycerol molecule) converts is minor. Making the sacrificing of protein (or high intake thereof) one of the only significant sources of glucose production and even then only certain amino acids can be converted to pyruvate (pyruvate -> glucose) others favor Acetyl CoA or go directly into the TCA cycle which can later be used for glucose.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdonisBelt View Post
    Fun and relevant word: gluconeogenesis.


    You don't need to eat carbs, hence this nifty metabolic process.
    Yea... ^Sir skips a lot lol

    Are you aware of the key roles protein plays in the body? Using protein to produce glucose via gluconeogenisis steals amino acids that may have been needed to synthesize an enzyme or antibody and so on...

    In addition, the body also needs glucose to make some nonessential amino acids. So in the absence of carbs, you now have amino acids sacrificing themselves, to produce glucose, to make nonessential amino acids. Fatty acids cannot be used to synthesize proteins. Glycerol can contribute to the formation of nonessential amino acids (when nitrogen is available) BUT Glycerol isn't exactly sufficient (IMO) to sustain ALL these tasks that the absence of carbs is responsible for. That means you now have yet another important task of glucose in an environment that isn't producing adequate amounts, since you think its beneficial to not eat carbs.
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post

    Yea... ^Sir skips a lot lol

    Are you aware of the key roles protein plays in the body? Using protein to produce glucose via gluconeogenisis steals amino acids that may have been needed to synthesize an enzyme or antibody and so on...

    In addition, the body also needs glucose to make some nonessential amino acids. So in the absence of carbs, you now have amino acids sacrificing themselves, to produce glucose, to make nonessential amino acids. Fatty acids cannot be used to synthesize proteins. Glycerol can contribute to the formation of nonessential amino acids (when nitrogen is available) BUT Glycerol isn't exactly sufficient (IMO) to sustain ALL these tasks that the absence of carbs is responsible for. That means you now have yet another important task of glucose in an environment that isn't producing adequate amounts, since you think its beneficial to not eat carbs.
    Thank you.

    I know you guys are in a heated discussion right now, but as far as training fasted... I don't believe in it.

    This is just my experience.
    When I have done fasted cardio in the am in the past (do not anymore, beyond that nonsense) I would feel like poop. Hungry, tired, angry.

    For quite some time, I have been training after breakfast.. With only one meal in me. In the past month I began training later in the day, and ended up eating 2-3x before training.

    I have noticed that I feel so much stronger and better when I train a little later in the day, with extra meals in me

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    "Does a lion eat grass" doesn't really apply to humans considering humans have evolved to use their brains differently than Lions and am quite sure have different nervous systems.

    Lactate -> pyruvate conversion rate is 10:1. That provides a sufficient source of glucose? Pyruvate also converts downstream to Acetyl CoA or upstream to glucose. There is no guarantee that the synthesized pyruvate-> glucose will happen.

    "Acetic acid (from acetyl COA) combine with pyruvate to make glucose. "

    Which is all well and good but that conversion still requires pyruvate, which can after a number of processes be synthesized via glycerol. This occurs at an extremely limited rate due to the makeup of triglycerides or more specifically the small amount of glycerol yielded. 95% of the content within triglycerides (5% glycerol by weight) do not make glucose.

    There is no need for carbs at all. That's a slightly irresponsible statement.
    Read the studies; they show that the body can work and function without the need for carbs quite effectively via ketone use (yes, the brain can work on ketones).

    Humans have adapted to low carb diets, hence the reason that we can produce glucose through other means. The body has sufficient capability to produce glucose through the mechanisms shown.
    Pyruvate is constantly produced through normal metabolic functions; where it becomes an issue is when build-up exceeds removal (blood lactate levels are approx 1-2mmol/L at rest).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20633934

    And again, all unbound albumin fatty acids CAN be used as a fuel for the brain (as they can pass through the BBB). MCTs for example.

    You can not base statements on assumptions: "There is no guarantee that the synthesized pyruvate-> glucose will happen"; What evidence is there that the body cannot function effectively in the absence of carbohydrate in the diet when Keto adpated (not just someone who has entered ketosis for 1-2 or 3 days).

    Also remember that fats and triglycerides have sugar bonds and when they are cleaved (i.e. broken down) they release glucose into the bloodstream

    Also, muscle proteins are spared via this process; Glycogen is spared which saves muscle proteins.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Yea... ^Sir skips a lot lol

    Are you aware of the key roles protein plays in the body? Using protein to produce glucose via gluconeogenisis steals amino acids that may have been needed to synthesize an enzyme or antibody and so on...

    In addition, the body also needs glucose to make some nonessential amino acids.
    So in the absence of carbs, you now have amino acids sacrificing themselves, to produce glucose, to make nonessential amino acids. Fatty acids cannot be used to synthesize proteins. Glycerol can contribute to the formation of nonessential amino acids (when nitrogen is available) BUT Glycerol isn't exactly sufficient (IMO) to sustain ALL these tasks that the absence of carbs is responsible for. That means you now have yet another important task of glucose in an environment that isn't producing adequate amounts, since you think its beneficial to not eat carbs.
    The body needs glucose, yes but this doesn't need to be supplied exogenously. Glycerol is not the only component that is used to provide energy to the body in absence of carbs.

    It seems like you are making the assumption that ketosis = zero glucose when in fact this is not the case. ketosis =/= zero glucose manufacturing.

    Also, can you state factually that the body cannot function properly in absence of exogenous carbohydrate? Because it seems like speculation at this stage
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Any references for that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Within the brain, nervous system and red blood cells? Color me interested, I'd also be very interested in seeing some evidence that this occurs.
    If you have access

    PMID: 4915800

    If not I can try and attach it
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    If you have access

    PMID: 4915800

    If not I can try and attach it
    JJ do you have access to this text by Cahill?: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3703386

    Edit: Nvm, I have it
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    The body needs glucose, yes but this doesn't need to be supplied exogenously. Glycerol is not the only component that is used to provide energy to the body in absence of carbs.

    It seems like you are making the assumption that ketosis = zero glucose when in fact this is not the case. ketosis =/= zero glucose manufacturing.

    Also, can you state factually that the body cannot function properly in absence of exogenous carbohydrate? Because it seems like speculation at this stage
    I never made that case. Not once did I say that, I also pointed out that glucose can be made with protein did I not? Also, did I state the "body" or did I say the brain, red blood cells and nervous system?

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    If you have access

    PMID: 4915800

    If not I can try and attach it
    Cool ill check it out thanks Man
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Read the studies; they show that the body can work and function without the need for carbs quite effectively via ketone use (yes, the brain can work on ketones).

    Humans have adapted to low carb diets, hence the reason that we can produce glucose through other means. The body has sufficient capability to produce glucose through the mechanisms shown.
    Pyruvate is constantly produced through normal metabolic functions; where it becomes an issue is when build-up exceeds removal (blood lactate levels are approx 1-2mmol/L at rest).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20633934

    And again, all unbound albumin fatty acids CAN be used as a fuel for the brain (as they can pass through the BBB). MCTs for example.

    You can not base statements on assumptions: "There is no guarantee that the synthesized pyruvate-> glucose will happen"; What evidence is there that the body cannot function effectively in the absence of carbohydrate in the diet when Keto adpated (not just someone who has entered ketosis for 1-2 or 3 days).

    Also remember that fats and triglycerides have sugar bonds and when they are cleaved (i.e. broken down) they release glucose into the bloodstream

    Also, muscle proteins are spared via this process; Glycogen is spared which saves muscle proteins.
    That link is to a summary. I don't have full text access to the site it redirects to. The summary really doesn't say anything pertinent
    The Physique Biochemist
    Biochemistry Major
    Your Physique AND Credentials Should Back Up Your Position

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    I never made that case. Not once did I say that, I also pointed out that glucose can be made with protein did I not? Also, did I state the "body" or did I say the brain, red blood cells and nervous system?



    Cool ill check it out thanks Man
    The study is just another brain thing lol

    I should add at this stage that i'm just playing devils advocate here; i'm a low carb, non keto person personally FWIW.
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  20. You jerks.... you just like to argue!
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    You jerks.... you just like to argue!
    Debating lol. The best way to learn imo; lets you understand both sides to any argument
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Debating lol. The best way to learn imo; lets you understand both sides to any argument
    This is my favourite part to the thread so far lol.

    I, too like to play devil's advocate.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Debating lol. The best way to learn imo; lets you understand both sides to any argument
    No doubt I read about the brain's ability to use ketones as fuel for like 4 hours last night, well into the morning lol
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post

    No doubt I read about the brain's ability to use ketones as fuel for like 4 hours last night, well into the morning lol
    Who needs to snack on skittles I'll just crunch on a handful of raspberry ketones when I study.
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  25. Just reporting in. trained after just one meal today. Hungry as ****. Not as much endurance. That's all the proof I need
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