Debate over Post-Workout Carbs

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  1. How about this. Lets walk through this some. I responded specifically to this comment
    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Pretty sure he sides with Alan regarding frequency (lower = better) and timing should be enough to fuel your workouts for optimal performance.Cooper on the other hand im pretty sure just eats when he is hungry and after spending a few days with him is around 3-4 meals tops a day.
    and I highlighted in bold the lower=better partNow show me anywhere in your response post where someone cites research that demonstrates less meal frequency to be BETTER than more frequent feedings. HINT: Evidence that demonstrates more =|= better is not the same as less = better
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Your complete lack of adding anything of personal substance to a thread is really getting old. Its one thing to just co-sign whatever someone else says (appeal to authority) but you not only do that but then also unnecessarily copy and paste the article along with the link. Both are not needed, when nothing is explained or elaborated, just post the link.
    JudoJosh... Why disparage Chef Bob is trying to contribute as best he can but not up to your standards is it? Why not say, "you are lacking personal substance and I would like to see more of what your research shows, rather then on about, "is really getting old." He is contributing more so then 85% of those here so why not cut him some little slack bro.
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  3. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    How about this. Lets walk through this some. I responded specifically to this comment and I highlighted in bold the lower=better partNow show me anywhere in your response post where someone cites research that demonstrates less meal frequency to be BETTER than more frequent feedings. HINT: Evidence that demonstrates more =|= better is not the same as less = better
    Then show me where he clearly suggests that you should have a very high meal frequency, because he does not support it and his research above even chimes in regarding that.

    Have you read his AARR (since i cannot link it on here) regarding meal frequency and his debates on it with Layne and his round table discussions? He is the last to pimp 5-6 meals a day


    You can kindly email him at [email protected]

    I will do so and forward this thread to him.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Then show me where he clearly suggests that you should have a very high meal frequency, because he does not support it and his research above even chimes in regarding that.
    1. I could care less what his stance is or what his thoughts on it are. I am more concerned with what the research says. When I first said "I hope thats not Aragons stance" it was because the research doesnt support a less=better WRT meal frequency
    2. AGAIN, research that demonstrates more frequent feedings may not be better than less frequent feedings is not the same as research showing less frequent feedings are better

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Have you read his AARR (since i cannot link it on here) regarding meal frequency and his debates on it with Layne and his round table discussions? He is the last to pimp 5-6 meals a day
    No I have not and really have no desire to. I typically avoid reading what others thoughts are on research before I read the research myself. It can predispose one to picking a side before they are even presented with the evidence. If you want you can post their citations though and I will happily read that. As I said I have seen absolutely nothing that would suggest less frequent feedings is BETTER but I am open to reviewing the research and the possibility that they might be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    1. I could care less what his stance is or what his thoughts on it are.

    No I have not and really have no desire to.
    Then if you dont care and have 0 desire then why are you here trying to argue?
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  6. The conversation is on the meal timing is it not? I am happy to discuss the evidence surrounding meal timing. Your problem is you want to present other peoples opinion as evidence.

    The I dont care and have 0 desire was in reference to paying to read someone interpret research for me. It was not suggesting that I do not care to discuss the importance or lack of on meal timing
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Absolute LBM has already been measured in studies. So has muscle protein synthesis. In other words, that increase in anabolic hormones can be 5% or 2000%, but it evidently is not enough to stimulate further muscle growth.

    Do carbs postworkout potentially blunt lipolysis? Yes.
    But do carbs post blunt hypertrophy? If not, why not go for a beneficial hormonal response even if it is a small one? As you know positive hormone balance isn't only good for LBM so even a small increase would be beneficial, no? Are carbs detrimental post workout? Besides "potentially "blunting lipolysis?
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    But do carbs post blunt hypertrophy? If not, why not go for a beneficial hormonal response even if it is a small one? As you know positive hormone balance isn't only good for LBM so even a small increase would be beneficial, no? Are carbs detrimental post workout? Besides "potentially "blunting lipolysis?
    Carbs don't blunt hypertrophy. Again, long-term studies show that carbohydrates do not further enhance LBM if ingested with protein postworkout. And since carbs positively influence "anabolic" hormones, what does this tell us? That the transient hormonal response has no effect on hypertrophy.

    So to summarize: carbohydrates have no benefit postworkout. The detriment is likely negligible too, but since it is unproven territory, it's at least more likely that carbs are detrimental vs beneficial postworkout

  9. Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise

    *Authors

    Abstract

    The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of ingestion of 100 g of carbohydrates on net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus protein breakdown) after resistance exercise. Two groups of eight subjects performed a resistance exercise bout (10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg presses at 80% of 1-repetition maximum) before they rested in bed for 4 h. One group (CHO) received a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates 1 h postexercise. The other group (Pla) received a noncaloric placebo drink. Leg amino acid metabolism was determined by infusion of*2H5- or*13C6-labeled phenylalanine, sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis. Drink intake did not affect arterial insulin concentration in Pla, whereas insulin increased several times after the drink in CHO (P*< 0.05 vs. Pla). Arterial phenylalanine concentration fell slightly after the drink in CHO. Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1*before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P*< 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour). The improved net balance in CHO was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.
    I can't bold the quote from my phone so...

    " We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids."

    "CHO alone improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise". Obviously the effects are less than that of the ingestion of amino acids but it does show some benefit.
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  10. Quote Originally Posted by mr.cooper69 View Post
    Carbs don't blunt hypertrophy. Again, long-term studies show that carbohydrates do not further enhance LBM if ingested with protein postworkout. And since carbs positively influence "anabolic" hormones, what does this tell us? That the transient hormonal response has no effect on hypertrophy.

    So to summarize: carbohydrates have no benefit postworkout. The detriment is likely negligible too, but since it is unproven territory, it's at least more likely that carbs are detrimental vs beneficial postworkout
    And to reiterate what I said in my last post. I'm not now nor have I ever said that the beneficial hormonal response to carbs would be beneficial for hypertrophy. I said if there is any positive benefit even if only 5% why not? I don't try to have optimal hormone levels for hypertrophy or to obtain lbm. I aim for higher levels because, why not try to have the best levels you can? Especially if as of to date there is no data furnishing proof of detrimental effects...

    If you could get an extra 5% on a test would you forgo the opportunity or strive for the best possible score?
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    And to reiterate what I said in my last post. I'm not now nor have I ever said that the beneficial hormonal response to carbs would be beneficial for hypertrophy. I said if there is any positive benefit even if only 5% why not? I don't try to have optimal hormone levels for hypertrophy or to obtain lbm. I aim for higher levels because, why not try to have the best levels you can? Especially if as of to date there is no data furnishing proof of detrimental effects...

    If you could get an extra 5% on a test would you forgo the opportunity or strive for the best possible score?
    That's not a relevant analogy. The goal on an exam is to get a good score. My goal for weight training is to build LBM. Since there is a 0% benefit for LBM, I would not pursue this, just as I would not spend time (analagous to money for a carb source) getting an extra 0% on an exam.

    Carbohydrates postworkout have been shown to reduce cortisol, reduce GH, and increase the AUC of insulin release. I don't really consider these beneficial for any purpose, really.

  12. Valdeezy, your study is 100g of CHO vs 100g of calorie free placebo.

    Cyrus's stance is whether carbohydrates are needed when protein is ingested i.e. is there any benefit when comparing PRO + CHO to PRO alone.
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  13. I feel there is a couple points that are being missed with broad blanket statements. Optimal timing would be dependent on the context of what is optimal such as what are the athletes goals and what was the atheltes state of training (fasted, fes, intra workout nutrition?) I will elaborate more later after class
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Valdeezy, your study is 100g of CHO vs 100g of calorie free placebo.

    Cyrus's stance is whether carbohydrates are needed when protein is ingested i.e. is there any benefit when comparing PRO + CHO to PRO alone.
    Yeah, I know lol... I was just using that as a point of reference to show that even in the absence of a pro source there may be some merit to CHO post.

    Thanks for looking out Ben
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Spaniard View Post
    Yeah, I know lol... I was just using that as a point of reference to show that even in the absence of a pro source there may be some merit to CHO post.Thanks for looking out Ben
    I just wanted to make sure. I thought your painkillers might have been taking their toll.
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I just wanted to make sure. I thought your painkillers might have been taking their toll.
    Oh they are... they definitely are lol. Thanks man
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  17. At least for me carbs are crucial. I've done no carbs, lots of carbs, and medium carbs pre and post workout and lots of carbs always has suited me better for hypertrophy and energy levels due to the increase in t4 to t3 conversion from large amounts of carbohydrate consumption.

  18. I like to take Purus Labs slinshot and slam lots of carbs post workout.

  19. Just gonna add a couple readings for you guys

    Do you need anything post workout?

    If you train fasted in the AM you might want to take in some protein immiadetely following your workout in order to prevent protein breakdown and promote protein synthesis http://jap.physiology.org/content/106/6/2026.long

    A small amount of protein (20g) taken pre workout changes this need for post workout protein intake (WRT to combating post workout catabolisim you dont really need it as much ) http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/292/1/E71.long. In this case probably can just wait til you're hungry and eat a normal meal

    As for co-ingestion of carbs with protein postworkout. The evidence is sort of lacking to really make any concrete statements IMO. If your goal is hypertrophy,

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/293/3/E833 showed that adding carbs to protein postworkout did not stimulate protein synthesis anymore than protein would alone

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21131864 found the same to be true

    so co-ingetion of carbs and protein post workout does not increase protein syntheis compared to protein alone

    Now for athletes training multiple times a day or week (such as football players and such) it may be wise to take in some carbs post workout in order to refill muscle glycogen

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9694422

    also see this thread for more studies on glycogen resynthesis http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...o-high-gi.html



    I would say the need for any food post workout depends on the intake of protein prior to the workout and the need for carbs post workout depends on the goal of the individual. With the exception of performance athletes, taking in carbs post workout may not really benefit them anymore but I dont see it as really being inherently bad, just possibly unnecessary.
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  20. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095924

    Participants divided into 2 groups. 1 group consumed a PRO+CHO mix immediately before and after training while the other group consumed the same mix but delayed 5 hours. Group 1 had a greater increase in lean body mass and 1RM strength

    This was a similar one to the above http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342 but found no significant differences between the groups
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  21. There's several studies comparing protein vs Protein + CHO ingestion on MPS, but I can't seem to find one where it was consumed in a pwo environment...

    edit: Just saw Josh's post.. i retract the previous statement
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