once you hit macros, where to put extra cals?

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    huh?
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    Time the Extra Macros


    I usually eat in the 3,500-4,000 range when growing, and I try to keep protein below 280g to reduce potential kidney strain. I have read that whey protein, fish and fowl are all neutral on kidneys, and I try to lean to those protein sources. But better safe than sorry. Of all the three macros, protein is the least desirable as an *energy* source, so just take the amount you need to create a nitrogen-rich environment for muscle repair and building. Don't take so much that your body is forced to get a big portion of its energy from protein.

    For the rest of the macros, I prefer to go heavier on the fat. A feeding of fat contains double the calories per gram, and burns longer and steadier throughout the day. When you're eating that much fat, though, you want to pay attention to the quality of the fats. Get most of the excess fat from olive oil, and get in a good amount of Omega-3 and MCT (don't overdo either one, though.) You can add two teaspoons of olive oil in with a scoop of whey powder in cold water and stir; morning and night gives you an extra 500 calories a day of fat. Get another 4 tbsp by putting extra on salads, tuna, using olive oil to brown your ground beef in the morning, etc. and you're up to 1,000 calories a day from olive oil alone. 8 tbsp a day is a pretty good target, in my experience. Then you have 1 tbsp MCT (max) in your coffee, a few tablespoons of butter, and the fat that comes naturally in your meat. That's a lot of calories. Try to minimize vegetable and soy oil.

    High-carb intake comes immediately after your workouts, up to 4 times per week. This can be more processed sugary or starchy carbs as long as you worked out really hard. Then there is room for additional carb intake on the days of your heaviest workouts (2-3 days a week) where you eat carbs throughout the day. Stack the carbs toward things like yams and oats. Then on the 3 non-workout days, drop carbs to much lower levels. Beyond that, just avoid mixing carbs and fat in the same meal. That is, on your high-carb meals, keep the fat to a minimum. And when you're eating high-fat meals with butter, olive oil, etc. just avoid any carbs.

    It sounds kind of complicated, but it's not that hard. It's like "Is today one of my hardest workouts? If so, go ahead and have oats and yams in the morning with salmon, fruit juice and whey after the workout, and then lots of carbs and protein during the day", or "Is today a non-workout day? If so, chug olive oil and eat sardines and avoid any carbs that aren't veggies".

    Anyway, what I am describing is just "carb cycling", and carb cycling isn't for everyone. You can go the other direction, and aim for low fat by increasing protein and carbs. I think the main thing is still to avoid mixing carbs and fat in the same meal.
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    ALL protein, regardless of source, puts some strain through the kidneys. Look up PRAL for further information regarding protein and renal stress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    thanks for all the advice guys i really appreciate it, i will def work on decreasing trianing volume, today i limited mysel to 1.5horus with warmups so thats t least an hour shorter than normalso im happy.

    in regards to gas leftin the tank honestly itdepends on the day but somedayim whooped and need aLOT of preworkout to getthrough, esp, some leg days, droppin to the floor after drop sets on suats and leg pressesand hacks...........legs sore for a week.......

    i did teh layne norton power/hypertrphy split fora whle and lovedit but i had a partner and a psotter for those heavy days, i dont have that anymore ewhich sux!
    Just grab a random dude at the gym when you need a spot. It's a easy as, "Excuse me, can I get a spot real quick?" Pick a guy who looks like he knows his way around a weight room for safety sake. You'd be surprised how willing people are to help out. Ask for form and technique help too, even if you don't think you need it. It's all well and good to get advice online but some things are better demonstrated in person.

    It's been a while since I was a beginner and even then I started lifting in jr. high for our athletics programs so I always had some guidance. I don't know of many beginner bodybuilding programs (hypertrophy). They could be out there en masse but I think it's because you have to have a basis of strength and know how to really get in to a hypertrophy program to begin with. Maybe some others will chime in though.

    I can't post links which is highly annoying and don't remember the name of another thread I'm posting in but regarding strength I mentioned buildin a foundation over there.

    Essentially, Think about dinner. You can lift a fork 100 times and not induce hypertrophy. Imagine squatting 200 pounds for reps and then imagine squatting 400 pounds for reps. The higher level of strength alone will increase your capacity for size.

    I am willing to bet you are a beginner for all practical intents and purposes and should start with Bill Starrs 5x5 or Mark Rippetoe's variation of it until you hit at least intermediate strength levels.*

    From there I would recommend Bill Wests Westside method to gain appreciable strength and then a bulking plan known as Doggcrap for your hypertophy. It will let you eat a **** ton too, don't worry.

    You can't build a house without a foundation. Get your squats, deadlifts, bench and overhead presses up to par with the programs above. I would also recommend a website called exrx dot net. (still can't post links) They have charts outlining beginner,intermediate, advanced guidelines and definitions to place yourself in the right program plus a ton of useful, practical info.


    * I recommend 5x5, westside and doggcrap because that's what I have used. I still do. I cycle through routines as the year goes on personally. Strength in the fall, bulk in the winter, cut during spring and 5x5 (with personal tweaks and additions at this point) in the summer. You need to do whatever your chosen strength routine tells you until it's over, then assess where you are experience wise and plan your next move accordingly.

    These days I do tweak routines or make up my own to bring up lagging body parts et cetera but highly recommend getting on pre-planned routines for at least a few years. The selection work is already done for you and you will learn alot as you go. Jim Wendler's 531 is super popular right now for strength, Big Beyond Belief is a great one for hypertrophy with a few templates designed for varying experience levels too.


    I know my post is long winded but to wrap up:

    1. Build strength first (what are your numbers?) - Starr, Wendler, West, Ripptoe, Tate
    2. Pick a hypertrophy plan when you have the strength to actually make it worthwhile - Weider, Jones, Trudel (Doggcrap), Costa (big beyond belief)

    Don't rush to number two. Routines geared to strength will still build muscle mass. You just need your emphasis on strength first. Bodybuilding is a marathon made up of lots and lots of sprints.
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    thanks alot for that post man! i feel my strength is decent, not as good as it was when i was playin college football but bench is almost 1.5x bw, squat i 2x bw and dl is almost 2.5x bw

    i was thinking of starting layne nortons power/hypertrophy split routinewhat do u guys think about that
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    alsolooking at westside....i like the explosiveness training
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    I am going to make a seperate post of this, but I have tried several of Matt Kroc's workouts from T-Nation and they are some of the best I ve ever done. They cross post them hiere is the news letter quite often.
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    You probably don't need that many calories. Just consistency and time.

    Your body can only digest and absorb so much at once, and I would imagine that there's absolutely no way whatsoever that your body is making full use of 5000 calories worth of food. No way.

    When I was younger and bulking, I'd try to go overboard. Then as I got older, I realized that I could make equal progress by eating substantially less. As in, I used to shoot for 3500-4000 calories per day, then realized that I could make the same progress at closer to 2600ish.

    Eating 5000 calories is just going to make you feel like you've got another full time job on your hands. Not to mention feeling like ****. It's easy to go overboard.

    My opinion..
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    Get on a natty test boosting stack so you're test is elevated allowing you to put on mass a little easier. That way, you'll feel great, be putting on muscle mass, and not have to be eating like a horse all the time.

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    I believe he's on TRT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    alsolooking at westside....i like the explosiveness training
    I'm going to say that you lack the foundation and discipline for conjugate periodization. It's NOT something you just decide to do one day and takes years to fully grasp. It is also not something that you can do solo.
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    Take a look at Wendler's 5/3/1. It's simple. You can get strong and big at the same time and no more of your 60 set chest workouts.
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    I'm not familiar with the routine but if it matches your goals, go for it!

    Oops, edit, the layne norton routine
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    i like layne nortons routine b/c it gives you the strength training as well as the hypertrpphy as the week goes along.....
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    and yes i am on trt so i dont know if any test boosters woudl do anything...although i had some people tell me erase and endosurge would still help
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    Lower your volume to a more reasonable level and you probably won't need the TRT. That volume of training takes a huge toll on your levels.
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    yea.....ive thought of that beingthe reason myhormones areall messed up.although without the trt i literallyproduced lieknothing, mylevelswere like100 if that
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    Are the strength numbers current or all-time PRs?
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    current, i was alot stronger at a few lbs lighter than right now when iw as playin football
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    right now im torn between 5/3/1 and westside, althoguh i do like layne nortons split because it lets me train 5 days instead of 4 :-)
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    the chest workout you posted before is double the volume of layne nortons PHAT. PHAT is a good program if you follow it

    5/3/1 is easy and will meet your goals. buy his e-book online and it'll make more sense. I went from 202-215 in just a few months using 5/3/1.

    I don't wanna sound like a dick, but I don't imagine you fully grasp Westside. I still don't

    and so what if it's only a 4 day week? you'll want that extra day off. your body needs rest to grow. you aren't letting it do that, especially when you lift for over an hour. lift two on, one off if you'd rather
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    i think im gonna do the 5/3/1 with the westside template to it so i can doa lil DE work but still track my strength progress easily with the bodybuilding accessory exercises
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    look at the Periodization Bible template w/ 5/3/1
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    i think im gonna do the 5/3/1 with the westside template to it so i can doa lil DE work but still track my strength progress easily with the bodybuilding accessory exercises
    You don't track strength with BB accessories; you do that with the core 4 movements. Like already said, you do not understand conjugate periodization well enough to haphazardly jump into it.
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    sorry thats not what i meant to say, i menat i woudl get the strenght work and do bodybuilding accessories.......i decided on the 5/3/1 westside hybrid

    started today

    workout looked liek this

    Squat 5/3/1 DE DL

    Squat
    225x5
    245x5
    255x5

    DL
    235x2x8

    Leg press
    270x15
    270x15
    270x15
    270x17..........also, only go to failure on last set of my hypertrophy work

    Leg Ext.

    100x25
    100x25
    100x23+7 quick reps
    105x22+8 quick reps

    Glute bridge

    245x10
    265x10
    275x10

    seated leg curl

    130x15
    145x9
    135x12
    135x14

    DB RDL

    75x15
    90x8
    90x8

    weighted decline crunches

    30lb 4x10
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    Why is your squat so low? For DE, you generally want to use ~50% of your 1RM. Unless you have a ~470# pull, then your percentage is off.
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    squat was 5/3/1/ max squat of 305 is waht ai used (suggested to start from 90% 1RM for 1st mesocycle).....75%,80%,85%
    DL was DE at 60% of 90% 1RM (395)....they site i read said to use 60% wand wave up to 70% by the 3rd week.........quick question what are rest periods for DE...........i was doing 60s, also doing like 2-3min for 5/3/1, thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    squat was 5/3/1/ max squat of 305 is waht ai used (suggested to start from 90% 1RM for 1st mesocycle).....75%,80%,85%
    DL was DE at 60% of 90% 1RM (395)....they site i read said to use 60% wand wave up to 70% by the 3rd week.........quick question what are rest periods for DE...........i was doing 60s, also doing like 2-3min for 5/3/1, thanks
    Why did you stop at 5 reps on the last set? This set is AMRAP and not limited to only 5. Regarding DE, you need to do a lot more reading on the topic before you jump into it. What you're asking is easily accessible and conjugate information is everywhere on the internet. You using the 90% of your 1RM recommendation for your DE work shows how little you actually read upon the topic.

    Honestly, you're overcomplicating everything and doing too much. You haven't even run 5/3/1 as written and you've already bastardized the template. Give it 6 months of consistent work with 5/3/1 as written (do yourself a favor and spend $20 on the ebook) before you start to add twists to it. Wendler is about as credible as it gets in the strength world and having the discipline to stick to the template instead of adding useless volume or new elements will benefit you in the long run.
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    Swap out leg curls for RDL's or something..
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    you're still doing too much and not in accordance with 5/3/1

    where/why did you come up with those assistance exercises?

    and as Rodja said, your 3rd working set is to be as many reps as possible. if you can only hit 5, then your 1RM may be wrong

    the book tells all. I've seen misleading information on other forums and websites
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Swap out leg curls for RDL's or something..
    and leg ext for something else too
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    Bro, stick with bench, squats, deads, presses.
    .
    The main point to understand is this, you can go heavy with low volume, but you can NOT go heavy with high volume. You will kill your adrenals and maybe why you are on TRT.
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    http://www.**********************/wor...ng-system.html this i the site i got my info from........ i did not know it was AMRAP fro the 3rd set........you guys still think thats too much? I used to do way more than that throughout high school training for football and im not much older now, whats the difference? i also woudl then go to basketball practice for 2.5 hours and then go to the gym with my mom afterwards and lift more.....worked well then, got a scholarship to play college football.........dont see how turning 21/22 all of a sudden made it that my body couldnt handle this amount? I coudl understand the amount iw as doing before but i guess i dont grasp how the workout i did yest. can be too much when i used t probably do jsut as much if not more plus 2.5 hours of hard basketball everyday
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    it's too much. I'll tell you over and over. everyone else that's come to this thread has said the same thing. stop your workout at an hour. if you're taking longer than that-then you're doing too much, not being methodical in how you do your exercises, not following 5/3/1 how it's written, texting on the phone, looking at ass

    as for your last rep, you go all out. that's the set that means the most and that makes you strong. sure that website gives you a quick overview of 5/3/1, but you need to read his book to fully understand it and his training principles. yeah your 4 compound lifts are low rep (even though your 3rd set could vary well be high rep) but he preaches that assistance work should be done 10-20 reps. I promise- if you have 20 bucks and 20 minutes to read it, it will be well worth it. he not only explains the program much better, but also basic principles in strength training.

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    thanks man i really appreciate all the help
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    Ok, so you are saying that you used to do more in high school....my question is why?
    Why so much training? What is your goal? Why are you stressing your body to the limits?
    Why is your testosterone 100?
    Obviously there is an underlying issue here......bro, a normal person can train half as much as you do, eat less than you do and gain more weight.
    Something is missing here....
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    it's no prob. I'm not tryin to beat you down here. I did all the homemade bodybuilding splits for years, 6 days a week, 1.5hr long workouts. it did nothing for me. I eventually plateaued and had no direction or progression. 5/3/1 completely changed that for me. merry xmas
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz View Post
    http://www.**********************/wor...ng-system.html this i the site i got my info from........ i did not know it was AMRAP fro the 3rd set........you guys still think thats too much? I used to do way more than that throughout high school training for football and im not much older now, whats the difference? i also woudl then go to basketball practice for 2.5 hours and then go to the gym with my mom afterwards and lift more.....worked well then, got a scholarship to play college football.........dont see how turning 21/22 all of a sudden made it that my body couldnt handle this amount? I coudl understand the amount iw as doing before but i guess i dont grasp how the workout i did yest. can be too much when i used t probably do jsut as much if not more plus 2.5 hours of hard basketball everyday
    It mentions the AMRAP on the last set on that site, but that site falls under the "a little knowledge is very dangerous" category. While 5/3/1 is not overly complicated, there is a lot of information regarding the template and assistance work.

    Regarding training volume, you're on freaking TRT. That should tell you that you were doing something very wrong whether it be underrecovery, AAS usage at a young age, overtraining, etc. and to continue with that course of attack is foolish. While I completely disagree with the one hour recommendation, it should not take more than 90 minutes for any session unless you're training in gear and prepping for a meet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Ok, so you are saying that you used to do more in high school....my question is why?
    Why so much training? What is your goal? Why are you stressing your body to the limits?
    Why is your testosterone 100?
    Obviously there is an underlying issue here......bro, a normal person can train half as much as you do, eat less than you do and gain more weight.
    Something is missing here....
    maybe not more, i didnt do tons of drop sets and stuff like i had been but i woudl workout before practice, then go to ractice, then workout again, not always but uite often, I did eat alot as well but i dunno its confusing to me.......im gonna give this a run and see how i feel thanks again for all the input and comments form everyone i realy do appreciate as much as i am normally not good with criticism i am taking it as help and really appreciate it, thanks again and have a great holiday!
  40. Registered User
    Jiigzz's Avatar
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    No homo but you have the AM PL specialist whose been shoving you in the right direction since the first page of posts; listen to the advice he brings; he's not saying it for his own benefit nor is he trying to steer you into a direction that will lead to 'minimal' gains, rather the best gains in a reasonable amount of time.

    Read 5/3/1 until you understand it then rewrite it again if you have to. If you didn't know it was AMRAP then you obviously didn't sit down and really absorb what the template is all about. I beleive 5/3/1 also works off a submaximal 1rm (not true 1rm- perhaps I think 90% of 1rm then all percentages are based off this).

    Read it, learn it, rewrite and repeat.
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