3 meals or multiple meals?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post

    Just to point out, this is by no means a study made with a control group and a test group, these are theories posted by someone in the field, much like what anyone can do and have it published on -insert your random blog or magazine here-. There is a difference between a "study" and a powerpoint presentation, study is backed with scientific data, an article can be written by anyone; hell, I could probably find articles to support whatever I wanted, if you want actual, verifiable information....

    And there haven't been much correlating the two or showing how it will actually increase, in fact, there have been actual studies in regards to carb back-loading as well as keeping as much nutrients to be consumed after your meal rather than throughout the day.
    Just to point out, test subjects were utilized in the various referenced studies used to form the theories, Bla55 most likely chose not to read them to find the context for ideas proposed and is only exercising knee-jerk skepticism.

    Let's flip things around a little bit:

    You seem to be using intermittent fasting, Bla55, and have a hard time believing any other diets are effective given the tone of your posts.

    In the context of this thread, we are discussing the anabolism of food, especially protein. My position is that the consistent intake of amino acids leads to more protein synthesis and less catabolism.

    Intermittent fasting diets recommend BCAA usage between meals and pre-workout. Why? Defend the position of leangain bcaa use. Playing devil's advocate, I'm callin bs. You don't need to take in aminos during a fast, even if you are about to work out.

    *bla's post edited for links that I can't reply with.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Meal frequency has no direct correlation to metabolism. See "bulking" sub-forum and "meals" thread for a debate that is on this exact topic.
    To be clear, the argument was whether or not the spike in metabolism food creates can be manipulated for weight loss or not. But to reply here:

    "An irregular meal pattern (i.e. 3 meals on one day, 9 meals the next day, 6 meals the next day, etc...) has been shown to induce a significantly lower thermic effect of food than a regular meal pattern (i.e. a consistent 6 meals per day) that has the same total amount of calories."
    Farshchi HR, Taylor MA, Macdonald IA. Decreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 May;28(5):653-60.


    You'll have to go read the full study yourself though, still can't post links.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    To be clear, the argument was whether or not the spike in metabolism food creates can be manipulated for weight loss or not. But to reply here:

    "An irregular meal pattern (i.e. 3 meals on one day, 9 meals the next day, 6 meals the next day, etc...) has been shown to induce a significantly lower thermic effect of food than a regular meal pattern (i.e. a consistent 6 meals per day) that has the same total amount of calories."
    Farshchi HR, Taylor MA, Macdonald IA. Decreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 May;28(5):653-60.


    You'll have to go read the full study yourself though, still can't post links.
    From your study:

    "RESULTS:

    There were no significant differences in body weight and 3-day mean energy intake between the regular and irregular meal pattern. In the irregular period, the mean energy intake on the day when 9 meals were eaten was significantly greater than when 6 or 3 meals were consumed (P=0.0001). There was no significant difference between the 3 days of the regular meal pattern. Subjective appetite measurement showed no significant differences before and after the test meal in all visits. Fasting RMR showed no significant differences over the experiment. The overall thermic effect of food (TEF) over the 3 h after the test meal was significantly lower after the irregular meal pattern (P=0.003)."


    The study talks about regular or irregular meals. I.e. eating at the same time every day or random times. No significant difference when the meals were regularly eaten, whether it was 3, 6, or 9 meals a day.

    This speaks for meal regularity, not meal frequency.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15085170
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  4. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Just to point out, test subjects were utilized in the various referenced studies used to form the theories, Bla55 most likely chose not to read them to find the context for ideas proposed and is only exercising knee-jerk skepticism. Let's flip things around a little bit: You seem to be using intermittent fasting, Bla55, and have a hard time believing any other diets are effective given the tone of your posts. In the context of this thread, we are discussing the anabolism of food, especially protein. My position is that the consistent intake of amino acids leads to more protein synthesis and less catabolism. Intermittent fasting diets recommend BCAA usage between meals and pre-workout. Why? Defend the position of leangain bcaa use. Playing devil's advocate, I'm callin bs. You don't need to take in aminos during a fast, even if you are about to work out. *bla's post edited for links that I can't reply with.
    Hadn't seen this one; what I'm discussing is the need for multiple meals or just one. Leangains promotes the BCAA when doing cardio or working out in the morning, at the same time it also promotes for the biggest meal of the day to be after your workout and with the majority of your daily calories, which would then counteract the purpose of eating smaller meals a day.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  5. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    From your study:

    "RESULTS:

    There were no significant differences in body weight and 3-day mean energy intake between the regular and irregular meal pattern. In the irregular period, the mean energy intake on the day when 9 meals were eaten was significantly greater than when 6 or 3 meals were consumed (P=0.0001). There was no significant difference between the 3 days of the regular meal pattern. Subjective appetite measurement showed no significant differences before and after the test meal in all visits. Fasting RMR showed no significant differences over the experiment. The overall thermic effect of food (TEF) over the 3 h after the test meal was significantly lower after the irregular meal pattern (P=0.003)."


    The study talks about regular or irregular meals. I.e. eating at the same time every day or random times. No significant difference when the meals were regularly eaten, whether it was 3, 6, or 9 meals a day.

    This speaks for meal regularity, not meal frequency.
    The study is showing that there was no significant difference between the caloric intake of meals on the steady diet and intermittent, and that overall the caloric intake between both diets had no significant difference, although the caloric intake of the intermittent diet varied greatly per meal from day to day, which it would have to do in order to maintain the same level of caloric intake over a given time. I think you are interpreting it incorrectly, they are outlining the "ceteris paribus" basis of the study. One of your bold marks does support your argument though, no significant weight changes were noticed in the short term.

    To be sure, this is what the authors found:


    CONCLUSION: Irregular meal frequency led to a lower postprandial energy expenditure compared with the regular meal frequency, while the mean energy intake was not significantly different between the two. The reduced TEF with the irregular meal frequency may lead to weight gain in the long term.


    Here is another study on a diet's effect although, again, this gets in to nutrient timing considering proteins higher TEF value (various diets work through various metabolic pathways, ftr):

    Reduced postprandial energy expenditure and increased exogenous fat oxidation in young woman after ingestion of test meals with a low protein contentKlaus J Petzke and Susanne Klaus
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    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  7. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    The study is showing that there was no significant difference between the caloric intake of meals on the steady diet and intermittent, and that overall the caloric intake between both diets had no significant difference, although the caloric intake of the intermittent diet varied greatly per meal from day to day, which it would have to do in order to maintain the same level of caloric intake over a given time. I think you are interpreting it incorrectly, they are outlining the "ceteris paribus" basis of the study. One of your bold marks does support your argument though, no significant weight changes were noticed in the short term.

    To be sure, this is what the authors found:


    CONCLUSION: Irregular meal frequency led to a lower postprandial energy expenditure compared with the regular meal frequency, while the mean energy intake was not significantly different between the two. The reduced TEF with the irregularmeal frequency may lead to weight gain in the long term.


    Here is another study on a diet's effect although, again, this gets in to nutrient timing considering proteins higher TEF value (various diets work through various metabolic pathways, ftr):

    Reduced postprandial energy expenditure and increased exogenous fat oxidation in young woman after ingestion of test meals with a low protein contentKlaus J Petzke and Susanne Klaus
    Not the amount of meals, the regularity they are consumed day in and day out. They say "There was no significant difference between the 3 days of the regular meal pattern" (i.e. whehter 3, 6 or 9 meals a day). I can't really help you if you are unable to interpret that.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  8. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Hadn't seen this one; what I'm discussing is the need for multiple meals or just one. Leangains promotes the BCAA when doing cardio or working out in the morning, at the same time it also promotes for the biggest meal of the day to be after your workout and with the majority of your daily calories, which would then counteract the purpose of eating smaller meals a day.
    Right, and if eating a large meal here and there counteracts the need to eat more frequently (from a caloric intake perspective), why do you use BCAA's? If intermittent fasting can stand on it's own legs, you shouldn't need to supplement with nutrients during your fasting period. Taking in BCAA's and protein shakes* isn't fasting at all. It's nutrient timing disguised as fasting, and the diet requires frequent nutrient intake at that.

    It's not really any different than simply eating through out the day at all, just re-packaged high protein/nutrient timing/targeted macros like every other bodybuilding diet. They just craftilly have you re-arrange your calories so they can stand out as "different" while feeding you all the protein you need in between to halt catabolism. It's simply an exercise in semantics.

    If you prefer to eat that way so be it, but it's not any different than eating slow and steady at all. Just more gimmicky. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Again, I don't care who does what if they find the results they want, I do find it odd people argue other diets so vehemently when their own isn't all that different in principle and application.

    *BCAAs are Branched Chain Amino Acids. They are a group of 3 amino acids which work to alleviate or prevent muscle loss during intense and fasted exercise, with Leucine being a very important amino acid.

    To simplify, BCAAs are source of fuel/energy for your body when working out to ensure no muscle loss happens.

    If you prefer Whey Protein, take it. If you have eaten, BCAAs are not needed.


    Straight from leangains FAQ section. They agree a steady stream of nutrients is necessary, they simply re-package the delivery.

    Also from their website:

    It keeps you full (satiated). And it has a high thermal effect (to get into it, the Atwater-formula from the 19th century states that 1g protein = 4 kcal energy. Factoring in TEF, it can be argued that the net effect of each gram of protein is really 3-3.2 kcal/gram).

    A nod to TEF, factoring in to leangains.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Not the amount of meals, the regularity they are consumed day in and day out. They say "There was no significant difference between the 3 days of the regular meal pattern" (i.e. whehter 3, 6 or 9 meals a day). I can't really help you if you are unable to interpret that.
    And I can't help you if you are going to ignore the conclusion. You are off. Sorry.

  10. I am not ignoring, I am 100% supportive that IRREGULAR meal pattern will cause changes and "MAY" cause weight increase in the long run. With that said, eating once at 8AM and once at 8PM everyday is a regular pattern, with 2 meals a day. Eating every 3 hours, starting at 8AM until 8PM is also a regular pattern, and they show no significant change in metabolism.

    Can't be any more clear than that.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  11. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    To be clear, the argument was whether or not the spike in metabolism food creates can be manipulated for weight loss or not. But to reply here:

    "An irregular meal pattern (i.e. 3 meals on one day, 9 meals the next day, 6 meals the next day, etc...) has been shown to induce a significantly lower thermic effect of food than a regular meal pattern (i.e. a consistent 6 meals per day) that has the same total amount of calories."
    Farshchi HR, Taylor MA, Macdonald IA. Decreased thermic effect of food after an irregular compared with a regular meal pattern in healthy lean women. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2004 May;28(5):653-60.


    You'll have to go read the full study yourself though, still can't post links.
    Ehh, this post does not reinforce your argument. It is for IRREGULAR meal patterns; what about 3 meals per day EVERY day (i.e. a regular meal pattern?).

    Study is pointless in regards to this debate.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Ehh, this post does not reinforce your argument. It is for IRREGULAR meal patterns; what about 3 meals per day EVERY day (i.e. a regular meal pattern?).

    Study is pointless in regards to this debate.
    Thank you, hopefully we can get past this now and move on to the fact that it's personal choice and does not hold any verifiable benefits to eat more times a day.

    As far as the BCAA, it's recommended on Leangains to not promote muscle loss if working out fasted. If you workout, yes, you will need nutrients, with BCAA you're not needed to break fast in order to do Cardio, which allows you to train more without breaking your fast.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  13. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy

    And I can't help you if you are going to ignore the conclusion. You are off. Sorry.
    Just want to say it takes more than 3 days to really show the damage of what it can due but it relates to Leptin,gip, and insulin. The harmful effects won't show for a while.
  14. Re: 3 meals or multiple meals?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
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    LOL, I have been reading and debating posting
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  15. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    Thank you, hopefully we can get past this now and move on to the fact that it's personal choice and does not hold any verifiable benefits to eat more times a day.

    As far as the BCAA, it's recommended on Leangains to not promote muscle loss if working out fasted. If you workout, yes, you will need nutrients, with BCAA you're not needed to break fast in order to do Cardio, which allows you to train more without breaking your fast.
    I guess if we want to play with the definition of fasting. In application, leangains is a diet taking advantage of nutrient timing and frequent intake of aminos like the diet some of you have been slamming for lack of research reardin the aforementioned points of discussion. Well, not research you bro's dub worthy anyways, and let's be honest, no study or empirical evidence (all of bodybuilding, powerlifting and other weight training sports pre-2010 or so) supporting an idea outside of your pre-determined ideology will be legitimate, at least not to you. Which brings me back to my original point that leangains is one of many diets shown to be effective and it's weird people are so dogmatically religious about it when it isn't even all that ground breaking to begin with. I'm not even sure what the argument is about any more.

    It started in a discussion where a guy was having trouble reaching his daily macros and it was recommended he skip a meal, lol. Then it took multiple twists and turns and it's kinda weird that it resurfaced in a discussion about protein synthesis when IF diets utilize a barage of aminos too, though I realize it wasn't you confusing that distinction, however, multiple similar but different conversations have fused to a weird, senseless argument.

    I get it, right now leangains is the doggcrap/testosterone/atkins/any other diet and people will follow it as dogmatically as the others until a new one that isn't really all that different but packaged really cool comes around. Have at it. You are all taking advantage of nutrient timing and high and frequent protein intake just like the diets you are slamming for lack of research. What ever works for you.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Ehh, this post does not reinforce your argument. It is for IRREGULAR meal patterns; what about 3 meals per day EVERY day (i.e. a regular meal pattern?).

    Study is pointless in regards to this debate.
    TexasGuy said:

    "To be clear, the argument was whether or not the spike in metabolism food creates can be manipulated for weight loss or not."

    And the study quoted, as discussed in its conclusion posted here, shows that yes, it can. I'm sure your diversion was unintentional but either way the angle you're on now wasn't even the discussion to begin with.

    Not only that, protein synthesis and the regular intake of aminos to support it is the topic you are currently challenging, or were, I guess.

    On that note, what is your dieting protocol? Because every bodybuilding diet I've ever seen has advocated a frequent and regular intake of aminos, however delivered, including IF diets geared to weight training.

  17. No it doesnt, and that will be as much time I will spend responding to that.
    Androhard + Andromass Log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/182038-so-i-decided.html

  18. Quote Originally Posted by bla55 View Post
    No it doesnt, and that will be as much time I will spend responding to that.
    K.


    CONCLUSION: Irregular meal frequency led to a lower postprandial energy expenditure compared with the regular meal frequency, while the mean energy intake was not significantly different between the two. The reduced TEF with the irregular meal frequency may lead to weight gain in the long term.

    It's been fun, with plenty of semantic twists and topic diversions, but yes, TEF can be manipulated for weight management as supported by research. I don't expect you to acknowledge it though, don't worry.

    Can we discuss frequent amino intake and protein synthesis now or is Jiggs on his own for that one?

  19. Why do you insist on pounding that study over and over when all it touches upon is TEF, which is only a minor part of TDEE? As I pointed out to you in the other thread, the RMR was not significantly different amongst the groups and this study only points to IRREGULAR eating patterns and does not discuss the meal frequency topic as it pertains to consistent "diets."
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  20. How about you focus on this


    http://m.diabetes.diabetesjournals.o...46/2/313.short

    And go off the research showing how long it takes insulin levels to fall. This way you can see how detrimental more then 3 meals a day can be

  21. Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    How about you focus on this


    Edit: I just wrote up a reply with a link to a human study demonstrating exercise's effect on insulin sensitivity but forgot I can't post it! I'm on a phone and it is a pain to jump screens, copy and paste but I can later if necessary.

    And go off the research showing how long it takes insulin levels to fall. This way you can see how detrimental more then 3 meals a day can be
    This has been a point of interest for me lately. However, many studies only discuss diet, with the limitation of the effect exercise has on insulin and leptin levels.

    Edit: I posted a study demonstrating exercise's effect on insulin sensitivity but forgot I can't link. I'm on a phone and copy paste is a pain but I can do so later if necessary.



    As far as I know, there haven't been any studies directly related to bodybuilding activities and the issue you have raised, I've only seen them referencing a general population (I haven't looked hard). This would be a limitation as I'm willing to bet I exercise with significantly more intensity and eat much cleaner than the study participants, including anti-inflammatory, low glycemic foods. It's also my understanding that with the proper stimulus, various hormonal changes brought on by intense exercise create a nutrient repartioning effect, where insulin is my "friend" as opposed to an average joe sitting on the couch and maybe walking a couple miles per week, the likely candidate for such studies.

    Diabetes doesn't really run in my family per se, but my mother, an active, regular gym goer nearing 60 who eats healthy is exhibiting pre-diabetic symptoms though, so I do keep an eye on my own blood work, and would appreciate any further insight on this particular vein of discussion.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy

    This has been a point of interest for me lately. However, many studies only discuss diet, with the limitation of the effect exercise has on insulin and leptin levels.

    Edit: I posted a study demonstrating exercise's effect on insulin sensitivity but forgot I can't link. I'm on a phone and copy paste is a pain but I can do so later if necessary.

    As far as I know, there haven't been any studies directly related to bodybuilding activities and the issue you have raised, I've only seen them referencing a general population (I haven't looked hard). This would be a limitation as I'm willing to bet I exercise with significantly more intensity and eat much cleaner than the study participants, including anti-inflammatory, low glycemic foods. It's also my understanding that with the proper stimulus, various hormonal changes brought on by intense exercise create a nutrient repartioning effect, where insulin is my "friend" as opposed to an average joe sitting on the couch and maybe walking a couple miles per week, the likely candidate for such studies.

    Diabetes doesn't really run in my family per se, but my mother, an active, regular gym goer nearing 60 who eats healthy is exhibiting pre-diabetic symptoms though, so I do keep an eye on my own blood work, and would appreciate any further insight on this particular vein of discussion.
    What you need to understand is how it relates to body fat directly

    Insulin can be a friend or foe for anyone especially reaching 15% or higher in men which is why you constantly see people bulking and adding more fat ten usual but when on test or other hormones they Recomp. Strictly due to leptin and insulin

  23. This is also why I advocate a Gda on a bulk like recompadrol

  24. Last time I checked 3 meals was considered multiple meals... Idk, but that title throws me off...

  25. i go 3 meals a day with power snacks or drinks in between..
    gotta do 1 more.. and then 1 more..
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