plant based diet?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by whodey41 View Post
    I actually enjoy the 2 different views and will be researching both. As far as me personally I won't be doing any plant based diet or vegan, more or less taking elements of it and cutting down the meat intake somewhat, if I find that's the diet choice I like. My plan was to use it to help out my mom who's cancer was in remission in trying to stay that way. And along with that help her diabetes, high blood pressure, and just overall horrible health.
    That's a fair approach.
    About the thread I wasnt sure you wanted all this talking points on here and didnt want to go off course from the original post. Nutrition is simple yet complex and there is always plenty to talk about especially the many views that are out there. It took me many years to sort through fact and fiction. THere is a lot of missinformation out there and some is coming from the food manufacturers which doesnt help the situation.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Vassille you are missing the point. A low fat diet is not the main argument. It is eating naturally. Plants, fruits vegetables, legumes, seeds, etc. Meat has no carbs and is high in saturated fat. You can get protein from plants just as easy as from meat. I am not a vegetarian but I feel a lot better as an athlete when I eat a salad and drink water instead of eating a chicken sandwich and milk.
    Your hypotesis is unfounded. Meat is also natural and saturated fat is good for you. Yes you can eat a balanced diet with meat, vegetables, seeds, and to an extent lower amount of legumes and be just fine. I grew up in an environment where we consumed a plant based diet in the summer along with some meat and in the winter we ate mostly meat and saturated fat/lard. I would never just live off a plant based diet, it would be useless and would have little to no benefit to me long term. I have relatives who are well into their 80-90 eating like this and are just fine.

    Being an athlete is different than being a regular person. An athlete would push the body to the limit to increase performance. Taking for exmple creatine is not great for you body but it helps with perfomance. So you see there is a consequence for everything we do. THe question is what do you want to accomplish!
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  3. Lol vassille as long as we are settling this debate. I agree but there are good and bad sources of saturated fat. I am currently horrible at cooking so there is no way I can integrate a plant based diet. And as far as working towards something, it's true that there are pros and cons. I'm not so sure thought about creatine because it's never been proven to cause harm when drinking enough water.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Our body makes enough cholesterol. I don't know where you learned that the liver doesn't make enough. The human body is always trying to maintain homeostasis. If there wasn't enough cholesterol than it would simply produce more.
    True, but getting it in the food supply is more effecient, or should I say you dont have to avoid eating it because your body makes it anyway haha. Normally, our body produces roughly ~80% of total cholesterol. The rest can come from exogenous sources, i.e the food supply.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Vassille you are missing the point. A low fat diet is not the main argument. It is eating naturally. Plants, fruits vegetables, legumes, seeds, etc. Meat has no carbs and is high in saturated fat. You can get protein from plants just as easy as from meat. I am not a vegetarian but I feel a lot better as an athlete when I eat a salad and drink water instead of eating a chicken sandwich and milk.
    And not suite as easily. For one, plant proteins are not absorbed QUITE as quickly as animal proteins nor do plants have complete amino profiles so you must have a wide variety of plant sources to create a complete protein molecule. Thus if a plant is missing just one amino and you fail to provide a plant source providing another then a complete protein cannot be made.

    But if you know which ones to use, then by all means. But eating healthy isnt defined as just eating plants.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Lol vassille as long as we are settling this debate. I agree but there are good and bad sources of saturated fat. I am currently horrible at cooking so there is no way I can integrate a plant based diet. And as far as working towards something, it's true that there are pros and cons. I'm not so sure thought about creatine because it's never been proven to cause harm when drinking enough water.
    Like what fats are you refering?
    Well if you cant cook then make a salad that's plant based.
    Creatine is over rated. I tried it, been training for 20 years I preffer to not take creatine. When I took it I was always dehydrated, bloated and as soon as I stop it all the water weight goes away and you back to the initial starting point. I preffer to spend the money on food.lol
    I get more bang for my buck that way!
    Im sure it may work for some..maybe for those who dont make enough or eat it but I dont seem to need it.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    Like what fats are you refering?
    Well if you cant cook then make a salad that's plant based.
    Creatine is over rated. I tried it, been training for 20 years I preffer to not take creatine. When I took it I was always dehydrated, bloated and as soon as I stop it all the water weight goes away and you back to the initial starting point. I preffer to spend the money on food.lol
    I get more bang for my buck that way!
    Im sure it may work for some..maybe for those who dont make enough or eat it but I dont seem to need it.
    I dont think creatine is overrated (especially since its dirt cheap), but its certainly not necessary. But I definitly agree if you have to decide which way to spend your money, good food is always the way to go.

  7. Jiigzz I don't want to get in Another big argument lol but your liver produces all of the cholesterol you need for your cells. This makes it non essential for you to consume. Also I wouldnt worry too much about amino acids as long as the protein intake is above the RDA. Including a variety of plants in your diet ensures you get all of the essential amino acids for a vegetarian. I could eat a peanut butter sandwich and have a complete protein meal or just eat soy or quinoa which are also complete.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Jiigzz I don't want to get in Another big argument lol but your liver produces all of the cholesterol you need for your cells. This makes it non essential for you to consume. Also I wouldnt worry too much about amino acids as long as the protein intake is above the RDA. Including a variety of plants in your diet ensures you get all of the essential amino acids for a vegetarian. I could eat a peanut butter sandwich and have a complete protein meal or just eat soy or quinoa which are also complete.
    If you just want to be vegetarian that's fine but dont mistake that for being healthier because it is not. It has it's own challanges even though you seem to make yourself believe otherwise.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Jiigzz I don't want to get in Another big argument lol but your liver produces all of the cholesterol you need for your cells. This makes it non essential for you to consume. Also I wouldnt worry too much about amino acids as long as the protein intake is above the RDA. Including a variety of plants in your diet ensures you get all of the essential amino acids for a vegetarian. I could eat a peanut butter sandwich and have a complete protein meal or just eat soy or quinoa which are also complete.
    You realise that Athletes, Bodybuilders etc. have a different protein requirement to that of a sedentary person right? RDA's dont apply for macros. Hence why their is exercise nutritionalists and general public nutritionalists. Sedenatry people can eat as little as .8g/KG/BW of protein per day for their needs as they dont put much stress on their muscles, whereas a weight liffter needs 1.6-1.8g/KG/BW and an adolescent needs 2g/Kg/BW. IT varies dependant on how active you are.

  10. Yes I know that protein intake depends a lot on activity and age. I was just saying that a vegetarian can get all the amino acids. And vassille I'm not pushing vegetarianism I'm just saying there is a lot more benefits to a plant based diet than there is just mostly meat. As long as you eat enough fruits vegetables and fiber by all means meat can be incorporated into a healthy lifestyle.

  11. Incorporating plants and meat is def a better combo. In reality our bodies do not care what the brain thinks. Food is processed the same way for millions of years. So understnading our digestive track is more important than trying to align our theories with certain lifestyle because some study say so. I have gotten to the point that I will call a spade a spade if I see the theory is wrong. For 50 years Ancel Keys theory of fat being bad has yielded a world of fat and unhealthy population. It's time to change that and call this low fat theory for what it is..bull shiet!
    Vegetables, meat, fats and some fruits in the right combination will from my experience yield the best results. This we can agree on.

  12. Fuel for the Fire:

    Showing benefits of vegetarian and low meat diets over high meat diets. (cancer, diabetes etc.)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188

    Lower blood pressure for veggie heads
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230619

    vegan diets don't improve alkalinity
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22142775

    High consumption of red meat promotes diabetes -> "confirms a positive association"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22983636

    Less meat = less chance of cancer, diabetes, coronary heart disease.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22964113

    And to be fair, I typed 'vegetarian bad' and 'vegetarian unhealthy' into pubmed and got this...

    Vegetarian diets adequate for children, unless: "too much reliance on convenience foods, lack of variety and lack of exercise." Which is true for any diet.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9670174

    Vegetarian diet following fasting is beneficial for rheumatoid arthritis patients
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252685

    Vegetarian women less likely to develop gestational diabetes mellitus
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22195364

    Atherosclerosis prevented by low-fat diet
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7661078

    Lacto-ovovegetarian diet used to treat type 2 diabetes, athersclerosis, metabolic syndrome.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2203210

    And the ONE study mostly showing evidence against a vegetarian diet
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10423098

    Interesting? I prefer this method over spouting opinion/talking points. If you can't find research to back it up, then don't say it. (That's an invitation to you, to do research and present it)
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  13. Sorry, that sounded really combative. I've had a sh!tty day lol.


    But for real, I'd be interested to see some contradictory research.
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  14. There is no fuel for the fire because anybody can manipulate any data and write articles to serve their purpose. THat's nothing new.
    I mean some articles are just presenting a point of view that is troublesome. Meat doesnt promote diabetes that's ridiculous and I dont need any article to suggest that. I can try that theory myself and I have over the years. In contrary, my sugar glucose has improved by 10-15% since I lowered my carbs and I eat as much meat and fat as I want. The same goes with blood pressure. On carbs I had elevated blood pressure now on low carbs I run 110 over 65 and Im 6ft 240-245lbs with 8% body fat. So you see I rather take people's experiences and my own over scientific data which is most cases bias because of who pays for the study itself.
    The one issue I see with a plant based diet entirely in bodybuilding is that it doesnt really work well. I know there are some ppl doing it but there is too much need for protein and extra energy that plants cant supply to fully develop the body. But I think a diet can be enhanced with plants and can be incorporated along with meat and fat.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Sorry, that sounded really combative. I've had a sh!tty day lol.


    But for real, I'd be interested to see some contradictory research.
    Here, real life experiment. I know it;s kinda long but it give you a different point of view and he backs it up with bloodwork.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIEDY...eature=related

  16. The one important factor in this entire discussion is insulin. The more we eat foods that require the release of insulin the greater risk for our health. If you want to understand more about this just look into type 1 and 2 diabetes over a lifetime of people with these diseases. You will see that high insulin will eventually create high blood pressure, increase fat storage,lipid problems (high trigrycerides, bad LDL etc) and the so called methbolic syndrome. Besides, when insulin is elevated growth hormone and other proceses including fat burning from adipose issue is stopped because our bodies get the signal to store through insulin.
    So meat and fat are not our enemy but the real enemy is our own ignorance.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    The one important factor in this entire discussion is insulin. The more we eat foods that require the release of insulin the greater risk for our health. If you want to understand more about this just look into type 1 and 2 diabetes over a lifetime of people with these diseases. You will see that high insulin will eventually create high blood pressure, increase fat storage,lipid problems (high trigrycerides, bad LDL etc) and the so called methbolic syndrome. Besides, when insulin is elevated growth hormone and other proceses including fat burning from adipose issue is stopped because our bodies get the signal to store through insulin.
    So meat and fat are not our enemy but the real enemy is our own ignorance.
    Protein instigates a high insulin response, similar to carbohydrates. Meat typically has a high protein content, and therefore induces insulin release.

    If you'd rather talk about personal experiences than published research, I know a guy who was pretty much 'Mr. Meat', ate hamburgers and the like quite frequently -> developed diabetes -> lived with it for a while and became overweight and weak -> went 'raw vegan' and was relieved entirely of his diabetes and subsequent fat gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    There is no fuel for the fire because anybody can manipulate any data and write articles to serve their purpose. THat's nothing new.
    I mean some articles are just presenting a point of view that is troublesome. Meat doesnt promote diabetes that's ridiculous and I dont need any article to suggest that. I can try that theory myself and I have over the years. In contrary, my sugar glucose has improved by 10-15% since I lowered my carbs and I eat as much meat and fat as I want. The same goes with blood pressure. On carbs I had elevated blood pressure now on low carbs I run 110 over 65 and Im 6ft 240-245lbs with 8% body fat. So you see I rather take people's experiences and my own over scientific data which is most cases bias because of who pays for the study itself.
    The one issue I see with a plant based diet entirely in bodybuilding is that it doesnt really work well. I know there are some ppl doing it but there is too much need for protein and extra energy that plants cant supply to fully develop the body. But I think a diet can be enhanced with plants and can be incorporated along with meat and fat.
    I'm sorry, but if you really believe that the vast majority of studies (and therefore all 11 studies I posted above as nill) done on health as it relates to diet is designed to be biased so that.... Wait, what would even be the point of this bias you are claiming? But if you really are not willing to engage on that level then there is no way we can have a useful discussion. I prefer to stay away from here-say and 'things I've heard/think I know'.

    It is absolutely true that there are certain agendas being promoted throughout the scientific community, an example are those of pharmaceutical companies which stand to profit from selling more product, but who stands to profit from pushing a vegetarian/vegan diet? There's not a lot of big money there, not that I'm aware of (the here-say part).

    It is unreasonable and a willingness for ignorance to refuse the findings of current research.

    Protein promoting insulin resistance
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/145544.php

    Even Lance Armstrong agrees on protein's promotion of insulin resistance lol.
    http://www.livestrong.com/article/27...diets-insulin/
    My parents created my body, in which I create my mind. I will honor them, by developing both to their utmost potential.

  18. "Protein instigates a high insulin response, similar to carbohydrates".


    Your body only breaks down no more than 30% of the protein intake for glucose IF it has to do it. So if you eat 100g of protein only 30g will be onverted to glucose if the body needs it.
    Very very wrong! Not by long shot. Take a glucose meter eat protein check your glucose then eat carbs like rice check glucose and get back to me. Let me know what you find!
    Your friend got diabetes not because the meat but because he ate the buns with that burger to put in simple terms. lol
    And when you eat fat/carbs/protein in abundance it triggesrs a cascade of bad things where the body will deal with the high glucose first and store the fat as adipose fat and also dumping some glucose as triglycerides in the blood stream. Basic biochemistry if you want to look into.

  19. "It is absolutely true that there are certain agendas being promoted throughout the scientific community, an example are those of pharmaceutical companies which stand to profit from selling more product, but who stands to profit from pushing a vegetarian/vegan diet? There's not a lot of big money there, not that I'm aware of (the here-say part). "


    Many people who promote a vegan diet are against killing animals for food. I understand their point of view and I admire their cause, it's more humanitarian than promoting vegan as being healthy. I also can agree that people can eat what they want however, what I dont agree with is how we are being told what to eat (mostly carbs) and how foods affect people (diabetes). A calorie is not a calorie!!! People dont get fat because they are laizy most times, and dont exercise enough. It is a complex argument and in reality if one can dig deeper into biochemistry books and actually experiement with eating certain foods and understanding how these foods actually work along with hormones many of the myths will be just that myths!
    Smart knowledge is power bad science can kill. Think about it!

  20. Just like ancel keys is giving fat a bad name. You are giving carbs a bad one. Carbs are the main source of energy for the body. In your case which your carb intake is relatively lower or someone who disregards carbs will induce ketosis which uses stored fat for energy. People think they are losing fat during this process but it's just water weight from the body neutralizing the ketones acidity by increased urination. If you don't eat enough carbs your body is pulling protein from your organs and muscles which can lead to failure of your heart/kidneys/liver etc. Low Carb diets are complete failures even though they show short term results. Look at the Atkins diet.

  21. Fruits and vegetables are fine is the grains and heavy starches that have an inherent problem.

    "If you don't eat enough carbs your body is pulling protein from your organs and muscles which can lead to failure of your heart/kidneys/liver etc. Low Carb diets are complete failures even though they show short term results. Look at the Atkins diet."

    This statement I dont agree with because I've been on a low carb diet for a while now and Im perfectly fine. I hardly eat any carbs sometimes there are days what I go without carbs and I dont have liver/kidneys/heart failure.
    I suggest you read a biochemistry book. You will find there that our mythocandria the cell that creates ATP(energy) uses fat and/or glucose equally effective. Educate yourself

  22. Quote Originally Posted by rambofireball View Post
    Fuel for the Fire:

    Showing benefits of vegetarian and low meat diets over high meat diets. (cancer, diabetes etc.)
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188

    Lower blood pressure for veggie heads
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230619

    vegan diets don't improve alkalinity
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22142775

    High consumption of red meat promotes diabetes -> "confirms a positive association"
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22983636

    Less meat = less chance of cancer, diabetes, coronary heart disease.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22964113

    And to be fair, I typed 'vegetarian bad' and 'vegetarian unhealthy' into pubmed and got this...

    Vegetarian diets adequate for children, unless: "too much reliance on convenience foods, lack of variety and lack of exercise." Which is true for any diet.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9670174

    Vegetarian diet following fasting is beneficial for rheumatoid arthritis patients
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252685

    Vegetarian women less likely to develop gestational diabetes mellitus
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22195364

    Atherosclerosis prevented by low-fat diet
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7661078

    Lacto-ovovegetarian diet used to treat type 2 diabetes, athersclerosis, metabolic syndrome.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2203210

    And the ONE study mostly showing evidence against a vegetarian diet
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10423098

    Interesting? I prefer this method over spouting opinion/talking points. If you can't find research to back it up, then don't say it. (That's an invitation to you, to do research and present it)
    Did you actually read the research before you posted it? Here are some findings from some of your postings: Ill number them according to which ones im responding to:

    (1)"There is limited evidence of an association between vegetarian diets and cancer prevention" Evidence linking red meat intake, particularly processed meat, and increased risk of CHD, cancer and type 2 diabetes is convincing and provides indirect support for consumption of a plant-based diet. I would never tell anyone to get most of their meat intake from processed sources (it has ALOT more sodium) And last but not least, While vegetarian diets have not shown any adverse effects on health, restrictive and monotonous vegetarian diets may result in nutrient deficiencies with deleterious effects on health.

    (3) "It can be hypothesized that vegan diets do not affect acid-base homeostasis. With respect to bone health, the significance of this finding needs further investigation." It can be hypothesized? Thats not a finding, that means they couldnt find a correlation. Also, it needs further investigation

    (4)this one made me laugh, over 11 years they developed diabetes? Did it not also occur to them that perhaps the carbohydrate in their diet lead to diabetes? Considering that is one of the main causes... Also, from the methods they listed, it seems (cant be sure though without full text) that they could ONLY eat red meat or white meat and nothing else? Or ate far more than on a daily basis than any real person would? Hard to ascertain without full text.

    (5) " Although the dietary intake data used here were collected a decade ago" Still relevant for today? hmmm...Also, most of that research was based on assumption that even they said could be misinterpreted. And I quote "Our point estimates for these reductions have associated uncertainties, which we have estimated using Monte Carlo simulation, although the RR estimates may still be more uncertain than we have assumed"

    (6) This one didn't agree with your point? "Vegan diets are more likely to be associated with malnutrition"

    (7) Im noticing a pattern here... "More randomised long-term studies are needed to confirm this view by methodologically convincing data."

    (8) The results of this study indicate that bad obstetrics history, obese patient on high calorie diet especially non vegetarian diet with less physical activity are highly prone to develop GDM. No Sh*t. High calorie diet? Susceptible to obesity? Lack of physical activity.. Of course you'll end up with diabetes. Well, not in all cases, but this certainly wont help. Doesnt prove vegan diets work.

    (9) Couldnt link to the full study

    (10) Same as above
    (11) Same as above.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Yes I know that protein intake depends a lot on activity and age. I was just saying that a vegetarian can get all the amino acids. And vassille I'm not pushing vegetarianism I'm just saying there is a lot more benefits to a plant based diet than there is just mostly meat. As long as you eat enough fruits vegetables and fiber by all means meat can be incorporated into a healthy lifestyle.
    Yeah, were arguing pretty much the same thing? Well, I am. Always eat fruit and vegetables.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Why do you think Every other American is overweight?
    They eat too much and don't exercise?
    Check your form: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/190675-proper-techniques.html
    Log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/235436-tossing-weight-torobestia.html

  25. Your body is supposed to derive glucose from carbs. Carbs are not bad for you. When a sedentary lifestyle is put into the mix all of those carbs are stored as fat. Why would you want your body to pull fat and protein from cells, muscles, and organs just so you can lose water weight and become dehydrated?

  26. [QUOTE=AdiPure7;3669048]Your body is supposed to derive glucose from carbs. Carbs are not bad for you. When a sedentary lifestyle is put into the mix all of those carbs are stored as fat. Why would you want your body to pull fat and protein from cells, muscles, and organs just so you can lose water weight and become dehydrated?[/QUOTE]

    Link to study?

  27. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    Your body is supposed to derive glucose from carbs. Carbs are not bad for you. When a sedentary lifestyle is put into the mix all of those carbs are stored as fat. Why would you want your body to pull fat and protein from cells, muscles, and organs just so you can lose water weight and become dehydrated?
    How old are you?

  28. All I am doing is describing ketosis. Ketones are acidic so your body flushes them out using water which leads to dehydration and increases urination. And I am a college student if that matters.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by AdiPure7 View Post
    All I am doing is describing ketosis. Ketones are acidic so your body flushes them out using water which leads to dehydration and increases urination. And I am a college student if that matters.
    I'm not a proponent of ketosis, but here: When glycogen stores are not available in the cells, fat (triacylglycerol) is cleaved to provide 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule in a process known as lipolysis. Most of the body is able to use fatty acids as an alternative source of energy in a process called beta-oxidation. One of the products of beta-oxidation is acetyl-CoA, which can be further used in the Krebs cycle. During prolonged fasting or starvation, acetyl-CoA in the liver is used to produce ketone bodies instead, leading to a state of ketosis.

    A mild acidosis may result from prolonged fasting or when following a ketogenic diet or a very low calorie diet.

    it is unlikely for a normal functioning person to reach life-threatening levels of ketosis

    People who are unable to secrete basal insulin, such as type I diabetics and long-term type II diabetics, are liable to enter an unsafe level of ketosis, causing an eventual comatose state that requires emergency medical treatment.

    The body also has a tremendous capacity to adapt, and adpting to using ketones and fatty acids will occur after a while.

  30. Yes I know that from a biological perspective. All I am saying is carbs should be and are the main source of glucose for the human body. Even if you have some ketones in your blood your body needs to get rid of them because they are acidic which messes up your acid base balance. Like I said earlier and you disagreed. Adaptation is obvious but your body would rather just get energy from carbs because it has no side effects.
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