Ketosis carbs?

[Danimozz]

I'm doing a ketosis diet and strength training to burn fat and prepare for wrestling. My question is, is it ok if you have a little bit of carbs or if you have any carbs will your body exit the state of ketosis. Example, the breading on frozen chicken fingers

 

[retrofitted]

That will most certainly kick you out of ketosis.

 

[Danimozz]

So you can't have any carbs whatsoever during ketosis?

 

[retrofitted]

There's plenty of reading you can do on keto. Look into Lyle McDonald or the Anabolic Diet. No carbs other than fibrous green vegetables and nuts until refeeds.

 

[MAxximal]

I'm doing a ketosis diet and strength training to burn fat and prepare for wrestling. My question is, is it ok if you have a little bit of carbs or if you have any carbs will your body exit the state of ketosis. Example, the breading on frozen chicken fingers

your eat less carbs then your body use your fat for energy= Ketosis
now what type of diet you are doing:

Atkins
Paleo
Zone
Anabolic Diet
etc..


High Carb 50-70%
Moderate Carb 40-50%
Low Carb 25-39%
Very Low Carb 0-25%

 

[Danimozz]

your eat less carbs then your body use your fat for energy= Ketosis
now what type of diet you are doing:

Atkins
Paleo
Zone
Anabolic Diet
etc..

High Carb 50-70%
Moderate Carb 40-50%
Low Carb 25-39%
Very Low Carb 0-25%

Not specific just know that it's in the very low carb ranfe

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

ok... heres the rule of thumb for you ketoers...
in order to reach ketosis i think you need to get down to around a level of 50nmmol of glucose.. or less.. once you have achieved this you can add in a few carbs per meal with out kicking you out of keto.. for most people once your blood sugar reaches 70mmol u will exit ketosis..

some people could in theroy hit about 50g of carbs per dya with out falling out of keto..
the only true way your going to know just how sensitive your body is, is to use a blod glucose monitor after each meal to find out how you are responding to any certain level of carbs. its alot easier to assume that you only eat trace amounts of carbs will keep you in keto...
rather than pushing the limit of what you can get away with. on an average day trace amounts will add up to about 20-30g just from basic keto foods like cheese and olives...

so like i said make it easy on your self.. stick to the usual suspects unless your willing to test with a glucose tester..

BTW.. once i am in ketosis i frequently will eat table spoons of PB wich has quite a bit of carbs per serving.. (12g per serving..) yet i never fall out of keto


GL let me know if i can halp any more.

 

[Danimozz]

ok... heres the rule of thumb for you ketoers...
in order to reach ketosis i think you need to get down to around a level of 50nmmol of glucose.. or less.. once you have achieved this you can add in a few carbs per meal with out kicking you out of keto.. for most people once your blood sugar reaches 70mmol u will exit ketosis..

some people could in theroy hit about 50g of carbs per dya with out falling out of keto..
the only true way your going to know just how sensitive your body is, is to use a blod glucose monitor after each meal to find out how you are responding to any certain level of carbs. its alot easier to assume that you only eat trace amounts of carbs will keep you in keto...
rather than pushing the limit of what you can get away with. on an average day trace amounts will add up to about 20-30g just from basic keto foods like cheese and olives...

so like i said make it easy on your self.. stick to the usual suspects unless your willing to test with a glucose tester..

BTW.. once i am in ketosis i frequently will eat table spoons of PB wich has quite a bit of carbs per serving.. (12g per serving..) yet i never fall out of keto

GL let me know if i can halp any more.

Thanks!

 

[mcdiddy4]

I've been on paleo for 4 months. I'm new to keto... Should I eat any carbs in my post workout shake or meal or will this throw everything off? I workout HIT daily to keep my head in check and need to recover. Does Keto slow recovery?

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

it all depends really... there are several methods of running keto style diets. if your running a strait keto diet similar to the atkins style then yes your probably going to suffer. however if you run a cyclic keto diet your likely to not notice the ordinary pitfalls asscociated with a low glucose environment. the idea of a CKD is to thwart the loss of muscle by refueling muscle glucose as the bodies hormonal responce to starvation/lowcarb begins to fall off.
you see as your body falls into ketosis the body trys to compensate by lowering cortisol and a raiseing various other growth factors in attemp to preserve muscle (all in responce to starvation) [even tho you may not be startving the body percieves the event of low glucose as such]. this is why the body switches to burning ketones rather than muscle ( an attempt to perserve the muscle). this effect is transient of course and as you deplete the systems enzymes and dip further into keto, things rapidly begin to reverse! this is why regular keto style diets fail typically for most hard training weight lifters/bbers.
the cyclic method takes this into account and stops the keto process before your hormone levels start down the path of catabolism. by tricking the body back into its regular processing of nutrients you can cause a "super compensation" of glycogen into the muscle. by doing so you can create a monster anabolic environment to enhance your weeks lifts.. keep in mind though your trying to return to keto immediately following your carb up.
that said your glucose level will rapidly deplete so you will likely want to [cram] your lifts into the first 48 hrs of the week as you descend into ketosis. when you get this method perfected for your own needs your likely to see a nice increase in your ability to pack on some mass while continually loseing BF.

good? let me know if you need more halp :think:

 

[mcdiddy4]

Thanks for the info. Id go crazy resting for 5 days. TKD has given me the energy i need for my workouts. I basically have about 25gm whey isolate/25gm maltodextrin/5gm creatine mix right after my workout. I think i will play around with some ketosticks to make sure im staying keto. If im falling out ill take the drink after weight training and before a cool down jog or maybe try the CKD method you're referring to.

Question: Sometimes I have a Quest Bar before a leg day. I see they have 24gm carbs but 17gm are fiber. Should I view this as 7 gm carbs? Either was the 24gm pre workout carbs falls under the TKD protocol.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

first let me clarify something.. you wouldnt be resting for five days.. i failed to mention the total body depletion work out that must be completed before you begin your carb ups over the weekend.. so really you would train heavy (entire body split over 48hrs) mon , and tues.. then friday after noon you would do a lighter sesh with higher reps to completely drain any last remaining glucose from muscle stores.. you do this buy taking in a small amount of fructose prior to your training session as it will refill your liver and trick your body into release its last store of muscle glycogen. so you really only avoid weight on weds thurs... and sat sun.
and while it sounds like far too little of training.. i personally have set a dozen or so PRs while in caloric defficit.. try that with any other diet and training protocol!!

ok so..onto your q, you will consider that the full 24 g. fiber is adjusted for by ketosis... thats more of a GI index theroy.. that your fiber is less of an impact on insulin than regular carbs.

since your running a TKD you should be able to play with small amounts of carbs after your work out.. i would avoid anything more than 25 g in your post meal or your likely to boot out of keto.

 

[EasyEJL]

so....

All this be as it may, there aren't any scientific studies that show a ketogenic diet working either better/faster for fat loss, or preserving more muscle tissue during loss.

 

[mcdiddy4]

Then why are there so many logs of people having positive results? Is the diet good for anything if im already healthy and lean? My goal is just to get down another 1% bfp on a diet that I can manage year round.

I figure i'll give it the ole college try anyways. I've been strict paleo for 4 months so the adjustment has been easy. I'm basically just taking out fruits.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that it doesn't work particularly better than any other diet that contains enough protein. From all I've read, carb cycling with low days in the 75g range and high days in the 150-200 range show better retained muscle mass.

But it will work

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

unfortunately all of the studies im aware of fail to take in all the various perameters of any various diet.. so while you want to say its not any better i ask you to show me proof that others are better ??? you cant.. sorry but your arguement is completely flawed just as is the study that said it wasnt any better. if you wanted proof you would have to set up a double blind study compareing various diets under controlled invironments.. wich would have to account for caloric intake, excersize protocol, duration and many many more variables.

that said.. its well known that the study that shows keto diets to be no more effective .. actually compared "percieved" success and totally misrepresented itself by failing to speak about the fact that most keto dieters failed to follow through for any signifigant time frame..

lets face it... not eating carbs isnt very fun.

 

[mcdiddy4]

Bought ketosticks... Set a pr tonight on front squats! Anyways I took in about 18 gm of matodextrin post and 25 gm pre workout. The urine test showed trace amounts of ketone (5mg). Is this enough ketone or do I need more in the urine. I will test again in the morning.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

well u cant just eat and then test a stick... it takes time for your body to process it. try again before bed and see if you still have trace amounts.
there is no proof that the amount of ketones denotes accelerated fatloss. as long as you are still in trace you should be fine if your trying to maintain ketosis.. but a TKD doesnt really rely on ketosis.

 

[EasyEJL]

The ketostix should never show anything significant beyond trace. If it does, it means you have excess ketones in bloodstream - ie excess fuel/too high caloric intake

 

[mcdiddy4]

Thanks guys! I tested again after eating 4 eggs fried in a tablespoon of virgin coconut oil , 4 pieces of turkey bacon, then ~4 servings of almonds and a 30g whey isolate icee before bed. I also tested this morning after fasting. The sticks showed small amount of ketones (15mg) both times. I figure my diet is ok with 39g carbs around workouts. (Quest Bar Coconut Cashew before workout (24g carbs), 13g Maltodextrin after).

I'm going to experiment this labor day weekend with a refeed even though its not TKD protocol. Time to blow up and show off...

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

awesome man let us know how things pan out.

 

[mcdiddy4]

Thanks. I'm new to forums but i thought I'd throw this out there for help. Maybe I should start a new thread??

In case anybody reads this and curious about what I'm doing. My goal is simple: To see how lean I can possibly get without sacrificing muscle or strength (or very little). I took my BFP today and am hovering around 7-8%. I'll bulk/carb back up in the winter

I've was on modified paleo for 4-5 months (No sugar, grains, starches, and very little fruit) but did drink carbs after my workout. I usually 13-39g of (dextrose and maltodextrin mix) depending on the intensity and volume of the workout. I cheated no more than one day a week. I've probably been in ketosis for awhile now.

The last three weeks I have been practicing leangains while on a keto diet. My first meal is at 1pm and the last at 8-9pm. I workout 6 days a week hiit (15-30minutes) and Max 1 body part(DL, SQ, Bench) a weak. Bikram Yoga on my off day to recover.

Supplements
Morning:
thermogenic (Oxyelite)

Afternoon after 1st meal:
DAA/ Erase Pro

Preworkout:
Virgin coconut oil or Quest Bar
BCAA (AminoX)

Postworkout:
Scoup of Whey Isolate (25g Isopure)
Scoup of Maltodextrin (13g)
5gm Creatine Mix (Musclepharm)

Dinner
Optimum Nutrition Opti-Men

Before Bed:
ZMA (ZMK by Millennium Sport)

Daily Macros (185g Protein) (154 Fat) (39 Carbs around workout) (~25grams carbs from green vegetables)

Does anybody have any suggestions on supplements to meet my goals? -maybe a pre-workout supp or different macro breakdown for keto.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

well there are several supplement one can use to benifit any keto diet. some of my favorites for keto diets are:

Plcar
A-Lc
chromium
vanadyl
plus a couple of blended GDA products...
Slin Sane
WhiteBlood 2

all of these are of great benifit.

 

[Clickster]

Keep up the good work! I personally have tried regular keto a few times and just can't go without carbs.
I start to freak out. :shocked:

 

[mcdiddy4]

I looked at a big burrito after my workout today and went with the chicken salad. I have will power!. Question: how does beer and alcohol affect the keto diet. I'm debating getting out on the boat with some buddies and drinking a little bit. I know this is a stupid question,but will alcohol throw me out of keto? I've always wondered where all the calories are. You look at mic ultra and there is only 2 grams carbs.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

alcohol act just like sugar in the body. the only time it would be acceptable would be during a carb up.. and that may even hold its own benifit of faster clearance rates than even tje very fastest acting carbs... so you could possibly use alcohol to return to ketosis faster during the last few hrs of your carb up.


enterestingly enough. each g of alcohol costs you 7 calories. the same as a fractured fat cell (ketone)

 

[rochabp]

alcohol act just like sugar in the body. the only time it would be acceptable would be during a carb up.. and that may even hold its own benifit of faster clearance rates than even tje very fastest acting carbs... so you could possibly use alcohol to return to ketosis faster during the last few hrs of your carb up.


enterestingly enough. each g of alcohol costs you 7 calories. the same as a fractured fat cell (ketone)

And alcohol is processed in the liver and it uses the same enzymes used to produce testosterone. So instead of being able to make testosterone your body will use those enzymes to break down the alcohol instead

 

[Danimozz]

Thread jacked me

 

[EasyEJL]

alcohol act just like sugar in the body. the only time it would be acceptable would be during a carb up.. and that may even hold its own benifit of faster clearance rates than even tje very fastest acting carbs... so you could possibly use alcohol to return to ketosis faster during the last few hrs of your carb up.

enterestingly enough. each g of alcohol costs you 7 calories. the same as a fractured fat cell (ketone)

Wrong. Alcohol deepens ketosis. Its one of the warnings they use with epilepsy patients and people who go into ketosis from diabetes related issues. That's taking strictly alcohol though, of course a rum and coke still has the coke to contend with, and beer or wine have plenty of carbs outside the alcohol content. You're right on the 7 calories part though

 

[rochabp]

Wrong. Alcohol deepens ketosis. Its one of the warnings they use with epilepsy patients and people who go into ketosis from diabetes related issues. That's taking strictly alcohol though, of course a rum and coke still has the coke to contend with, and beer or wine have plenty of carbs outside the alcohol content. You're right on the 7 calories part though

Good info bro

 

[EasyEJL]

when the body is already in ketosis, the alcohol is converted into acetones which is more or less the same structure as keytones. so although it would get burned for fuel first before fats, the body wouldn't ever leave ketosis if you did for instance bacardi 151 and coke zero/diet coke

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

after reading your post i agree 100%.. i think i was more or less trying to explain that its like an empty calorie. the fact that it deepens ketosis is the same thing i was saying about hastening a drop into ketosis.. after that though the calories would be better served from a healthy dietary fat.. as it is, your calories are severly limited to begin with. obviously as you mentioned you could deffinatly drink a ****tail like u depicted and stay in ketosis but
u wouldnt nessisarrily be helping your diet aside from keeping ur sanity. anyhow. the fact is you are correct it would be burned before ketones but like a sugar it wouldnt help you maintain muscle or enhance insulin sensitivity, wich imo is the goal of these diets.

excellent info tho repped.

 

[mcdiddy4]

I carbed up all day Saturday and Sunday and the ketosticks went negative. Its interesting that i could eat so many carbs and not feel bloated. Monday I drank several beers and some wine at a pool party (no other carb sources). This morning the ketosticks were still negative but after my workout this evening I'm back in ketosis! (18 hours from my last drink) My energy and strength were also abnormally high during my workout today. I think I will be doing a Tkd with ckd refeeds going forward. The muscles are definitely feel a bit more full.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

the strength is generally from the anabolic environment you have created by supercompensation.. the bodies ability to over compensate for the rebound from starvation, is quite amazing. when u do it perfect its uncanny how strong you can feel. in the one yr. period i have been following body opus i have set at least a half dozen PRs while being calorie restricted. i will admit tho.. its easy to feel like a zombie when u cut your calories too low on this diet.