NEED INPUT - ELEVATED BUN, URINE URIC ACID

[mcs5309]

Current stats:
Age: 52
Height: 5-7
Weight: 167lbs - approx. 130lbs fat-free mass
Bodyfat: 18.4%


Average Macros:
Calories: 1400
Protein: 135g
Carbs: 40g (<10g of that from fructose, mostly berries)
Fat: 75g

I have been eating VLC paleo and doing intermittent fasting for about the last 6 mos. as I am trying to lose bodyfat. My goal is to get to 10% bodyfat first before I can start adding more lean mass. I resistance train 4 x's/week.

My latest CMP showed elevated BUN (36 - ref range: 6-24), elevated BUN/Creatinine ratio (39 - ref range:9-20), and elevated urinary uric acid (1118.0 - ref range: 250.0-750.0).

I also showed elevated serum calcium (10.9 - ref range: 8.7-10.2). My serum uric acid (UA), however, is normal (4.6 - ref range: 3.7-8.6) as is my creatinine (0.92 - ref range 0.76-1.27) and eGFR (95 - ref range >59). There is no protein in my urine. I do not have gout. This would indicate there is no incidence of CKD or kidney failure and that my kidneys are able to remove the UA effectively. These levels have gradually increased over the last 6 mos.

I understand that the elevated levels are a direct result of purines from increased protein metabolism and its waste products. However, 135g of daily protein to maintain lean mass is by no means excessive, especially for someone who trains, so I cannot understand these markers being increasingly elevated. In fact, according to this excerpt from the following link, increased protein intake DOES NOT translate in increased uric acid excretion:

"The excretion of uric acid bears no relationship to the extent of protein metabolism, for an excessive consumption of nitrogenous food (free from nuclein) does not increase the amount of uric acid excreted, even although the metabolism may be increased. Thus from 18 grams of protein food 433 mgr. uric acid were excreted, whereas from 80 grams of protein food not more than 442 mgr. uric acid were excreted."

On a side note, I had passed a 3mm calcium oxalate kidney stone back in March. For stone prevention, I am drinking about 12 cups of water daily and taking approx. 5g potassium citrate to alkalinize urine. I urinate 1500-2000cc daily. I also take magnesium citrate. For many years I've had a problem taking pancreatin in that it made my urine very acid and caused mouth sores. Pancreatin is known to increase UA. In addition, my urine pH has always been about 5.0 (acid).

I realize that red meat is moderately high in purines (which can elevate uric acid), but I love my grass-fed beef and buffalo and would hate to give them up or reduce them!

The good news is that any excess UA is not being retained and is being excreted in the urine, otherwise my serum UA would be elevated. Still, this is a warning sign of possible gout or other dysfunctions.

Possible causes/explanations:

- serum UA seems to have an inverse relationship to urine UA; decrease of serum uric acid levels seems to increase the urinary excretion of uric acid.

- when you eat more protein, your kidneys will extract more UA acid in your urine to compensate which is why my serum UA acid is normal.

- imbalance in the ratio of protein to low-protein foods (i.e. fats, vegetables, fruits); not enough low-protein foods to compensate for increase in BUN and UA.

- fasting increases UA excretion, but the increase in ketones cancels it out.

- both potassium and magnesium citrate increase rate of UA excretion.

- exogenous high doses of zinc and iron can elevate UA.

- breakdown of fats by the liver produces several byproducts, including uric acid. I have NAFLD (fatty liver) and have read that VLC paleo and IF can accelerate the clearance of FFAs, especially when combined with exogenous choline.

- other supplements causing elevated urinary UA excretion.

- It also appears that uric acid increases the storage of body fat. Perhaps this is a factor in my inability to burn fat.

Possible Solutions (since reducing protein intake would be counterproductive to anabolism):

- To balance out the overload of UA, I would increase veggies and healthy fats. If I increase fruits, then fructose increases which is counterproductive to fat loss and itself increase uric acid.

- Maintain Vitamin C intake @ 5-7g daily.

- drop the zinc to 50mg daily; should I drop the iron (I am taking 33mg from supps to raise serum ferritin)?

Any reason why serum calcium is elevated? My last PTH was normal.

Before resorting to meds like allopurinol to decrease urinary UA levels, any other pearls you guys can share??

 

[Medical420]

As a severe arthritis person I Can say Malic Acid (apple cider vinegar) has the ability to reduce Uric acid. In the beginning you will need to take it every meal. After a balance is achieved maintain with 1 - 2 tbs a day depending on your diet. I am strict hunter gather Paleo and find balance very easy without the dairy, grains and sugars.

 

[mcs5309]

As a severe arthritis person I Can say Malic Acid (apple cider vinegar) has the ability to reduce Uric acid. In the beginning you will need to take it every meal. After a balance is achieved maintain with 1 - 2 tbs a day depending on your diet. I am strict hunter gather Paleo and find balance very easy without the dairy, grains and sugars.

Thanks, I have been taking ACV for the last couple years now. This is the first time I've tested for urine uric acid, so I have no idea of what my level was before.

 

[Medical420]

Interesting, you deff sound like you need to alkalize. I too am Paleo(strict) 70%20%10% for 1.5y, I do not refeed and have not ever, but I will be in October for mass.

Are you complete Paleo, ie grains, dairy and sugars removed?

My knowledge is base on digestion and the intestinal tract --> organs. Everything starts and ends from diet. Personally I believe (oen experience) it's organisms out of balance or un welcome to our intestinal tract that throws us out of wack.

 

[mcs5309]

Interesting, you deff sound like you need to alkalize. I too am Paleo(strict) 70%20%10% for 1.5y, I do not refeed and have not ever, but I will be in October for mass.

Are you complete Paleo, ie grains, dairy and sugars removed?

My knowledge is base on digestion and the intestinal tract --> organs. Everything starts and ends from diet. Personally I believe (oen experience) it's organisms out of balance or un welcome to our intestinal tract that throws us out of wack.

Grain-free, sugar-free, no cow's milk dairy (I will occasionally eat raw goat milk cheese or kefir). Take lots of probiotics.

 

[Medical420]

Awesome,

Any other conditions / symptoms you don't mind mentioning if any?

 

[mcs5309]

Awesome,

Any other conditions / symptoms you don't mind mentioning if any?

Occasional gas, dull headaches, hypertension.

 

[Medical420]

Don't give up on meats yet, but look into the link i sent you, since I can't post them yet.

Check out the reviews, i have used it with great results i had major kidney and liver damage from the prescriptions. Between diet, my natural meds and products from them have given me a second chance at health.


I am currently doing the SmartCleanse with paragone and fibre smart. I have done,Candigone, candizyme, lung therapy, total Kidney, Liver cleanse, critical liver and the bowel cleanse. I recommend the 30 day kidney to you first, then maybe do the SmartCleanse for30 after to clean the rest if your organs.


I swear to you only great results. My wife HAD chronic UTI's, almost monthly. She did this cleanse and went symptom free for 8 months. It happened again she did the cleanse with the Female Flora enzymes and has been clear for 6 months now.

Also, I take 2 500mg unrefined ACV every meal. This has reduced daily swelling(uric acid) in my remaining joints quiet a bit

 

[mcs5309]

Just a theory, but does anyone know if intermittent fasting could increase BUN and uric acid because with a shorter feeding window (as opposed to throughout the day), and thus with protein consumption being condensed/concentrated, the kidneys have less time and work harder to process a larger amount of protein which results in elevated BUN and uric acid levels?

 

[vassille]

Current stats:
Age: 52
Height: 5-7
Weight: 167lbs - approx. 130lbs fat-free mass
Bodyfat: 18.4%


Average Macros:
Calories: 1400
Protein: 135g
Carbs: 40g (<10g of that from fructose, mostly berries)
Fat: 75g

I have been eating VLC paleo and doing intermittent fasting for about the last 6 mos. as I am trying to lose bodyfat. My goal is to get to 10% bodyfat first before I can start adding more lean mass. I resistance train 4 x's/week.

My latest CMP showed elevated BUN (36 - ref range: 6-24), elevated BUN/Creatinine ratio (39 - ref range:9-20), and elevated urinary uric acid (1118.0 - ref range: 250.0-750.0).

I also showed elevated serum calcium (10.9 - ref range: 8.7-10.2). My serum uric acid (UA), however, is normal (4.6 - ref range: 3.7-8.6) as is my creatinine (0.92 - ref range 0.76-1.27) and eGFR (95 - ref range >59). There is no protein in my urine. I do not have gout. This would indicate there is no incidence of CKD or kidney failure and that my kidneys are able to remove the UA effectively. These levels have gradually increased over the last 6 mos.

I understand that the elevated levels are a direct result of purines from increased protein metabolism and its waste products. However, 135g of daily protein to maintain lean mass is by no means excessive, especially for someone who trains, so I cannot understand these markers being increasingly elevated. In fact, according to this excerpt from the following link, increased protein intake DOES NOT translate in increased uric acid excretion:

"The excretion of uric acid bears no relationship to the extent of protein metabolism, for an excessive consumption of nitrogenous food (free from nuclein) does not increase the amount of uric acid excreted, even although the metabolism may be increased. Thus from 18 grams of protein food 433 mgr. uric acid were excreted, whereas from 80 grams of protein food not more than 442 mgr. uric acid were excreted."

On a side note, I had passed a 3mm calcium oxalate kidney stone back in March. For stone prevention, I am drinking about 12 cups of water daily and taking approx. 5g potassium citrate to alkalinize urine. I urinate 1500-2000cc daily. I also take magnesium citrate. For many years I've had a problem taking pancreatin in that it made my urine very acid and caused mouth sores. Pancreatin is known to increase UA. In addition, my urine pH has always been about 5.0 (acid).

I realize that red meat is moderately high in purines (which can elevate uric acid), but I love my grass-fed beef and buffalo and would hate to give them up or reduce them!

The good news is that any excess UA is not being retained and is being excreted in the urine, otherwise my serum UA would be elevated. Still, this is a warning sign of possible gout or other dysfunctions.

Possible causes/explanations:

- serum UA seems to have an inverse relationship to urine UA; decrease of serum uric acid levels seems to increase the urinary excretion of uric acid.

- when you eat more protein, your kidneys will extract more UA acid in your urine to compensate which is why my serum UA acid is normal.

- imbalance in the ratio of protein to low-protein foods (i.e. fats, vegetables, fruits); not enough low-protein foods to compensate for increase in BUN and UA.

- fasting increases UA excretion, but the increase in ketones cancels it out.

- both potassium and magnesium citrate increase rate of UA excretion.

- exogenous high doses of zinc and iron can elevate UA.

- breakdown of fats by the liver produces several byproducts, including uric acid. I have NAFLD (fatty liver) and have read that VLC paleo and IF can accelerate the clearance of FFAs, especially when combined with exogenous choline.

- other supplements causing elevated urinary UA excretion.

- It also appears that uric acid increases the storage of body fat. Perhaps this is a factor in my inability to burn fat.

Possible Solutions (since reducing protein intake would be counterproductive to anabolism):

- To balance out the overload of UA, I would increase veggies and healthy fats. If I increase fruits, then fructose increases which is counterproductive to fat loss and itself increase uric acid.

- Maintain Vitamin C intake @ 5-7g daily.

- drop the zinc to 50mg daily; should I drop the iron (I am taking 33mg from supps to raise serum ferritin)?

Any reason why serum calcium is elevated? My last PTH was normal.

Before resorting to meds like allopurinol to decrease urinary UA levels, any other pearls you guys can share??

Your fat intake is too low for what you trying to do.Your body uses protein for energy.

 

[mcs5309]

Your fat intake is too low for what you trying to do.Your body uses protein for energy.

How's this - looking more keto (65% fat, 30% pro, 5% carbs):

CALS: 1900
PRO: 143g
CHO: 24g
FAT: 137g

 

[vassille]

How's this - looking more keto (65% fat, 30% pro, 5% carbs):

CALS: 1900
PRO: 143g
CHO: 24g
FAT: 137g

better and yes you are venturing into keto, but think of it as low carb because you could increase carbs up to 100g if you do enough physical activity. If you dont, then stick with 50g of carbs per day.
protein should not be higher than 20- 25% of total caloric intake. Dont worry you will not lose lean mass.
Once a week have a meal with anything you want...and I mean anything! Pizza, ice cream etc
Sometimes I eat uppwards of 2500cal at that meal so you get the idea

 

[mcs5309]

better and yes you are venturing into keto, but think of it as low carb because you could increase carbs up to 100g if you do enough physical activity. If you dont, then stick with 50g of carbs per day.
protein should not be higher than 20- 25% of total caloric intake. Dont worry you will not lose lean mass.
Once a week have a meal with anything you want...and I mean anything! Pizza, ice cream etc
Sometimes I eat uppwards of 2500cal at that meal so you get the idea

what's your bf at now?

 

[vassille]

8-9%

 

[mcs5309]

8-9%

How do you measure and what was it before your diet?

For me, it would only make sense to cut since I'm >15%. I just cannot see bulking when I'm 18-19%.

 

[mcs5309]

better and yes you are venturing into keto, but think of it as low carb because you could increase carbs up to 100g if you do enough physical activity. If you dont, then stick with 50g of carbs per day.
protein should not be higher than 20- 25% of total caloric intake. Dont worry you will not lose lean mass.
Once a week have a meal with anything you want...and I mean anything! Pizza, ice cream etc
Sometimes I eat uppwards of 2500cal at that meal so you get the idea

I think I will keeps cals same, but add a modified keto carb cycle to my IF and bump carbs this way only on wo days:

(60% fat, 25% pro, 15% carbs):

CALS: 1900
PRO: 119g (25%)
CHO: 72g (15%)
FAT: 127g (60%)

Again, with 18-19% bf, I fear going past 75g carbs may reverse my fat loss goals.

 

[vassille]

I think I will keeps cals same, but add a modified keto carb cycle to my IF and bump carbs this way only on wo days:

(60% fat, 25% pro, 15% carbs):

CALS: 1900
PRO: 119g (25%)
CHO: 72g (15%)
FAT: 127g (60%)

Again, with 18-19% bf, I fear going past 75g carbs may reverse my fat loss goals.

THis one seems a bit better although cal still seem a bit low but the break down is much better. Try it out and see if it works.
THe rule is that if you lower carbs increase the fat intake. Dont just cut calories that's a mistake. I would argue that your cal intake should be around 2500. But I need more info to say for sure.

 

[mcs5309]

No, I wasn't cutting cals at all, just cycling macros depending on physical activity level. I'm not a big guy (see stats on first post) and 2300 is above my low active TEE, and my RMR is 1500. To lose fat, I chose to be 400 below my low active TEE which puts me @ 1900. I was @ 1400 which is probably too low.

I am going to try and few things outside of diet to speed up lipolysis while adding lean mass:

Before I train fasted, Alpha-T2/T3 stack, and down the road, I will be looking into peptides like GHRP-2, 6, CJC-1295 and look into bumping my T from the 500s to at least 800. I'm 52, after all.

Thoughts?

 

[mcs5309]

THis one seems a bit better although cal still seem a bit low but the break down is much better. Try it out and see if it works.
THe rule is that if you lower carbs increase the fat intake. Dont just cut calories that's a mistake. I would argue that your cal intake should be around 2500. But I need more info to say for sure.

No, I wasn't cutting cals at all, just cycling macros depending on physical activity level. I'm not a big guy (see stats on first post) and 2300 is above my low active TEE, and my RMR is 1500. To lose fat, I chose to be 400 below my low active TEE which puts me @ 1900. I was @ 1400 which is probably too low.

I am going to try and few things outside of diet to speed up lipolysis while adding lean mass:

Before I train fasted, Alpha-T2/T3 stack, and down the road, I will be looking into peptides like GHRP-2, 6, CJC-1295 and look into bumping my T from the 500s to at least 800. I'm 52, after all.

Thoughts?

 

[vassille]

How do you measure and what was it before your diet?

For me, it would only make sense to cut since I'm >15%. I just cannot see bulking when I'm 18-19%.

Yes you have the right idea to lean out first then try to put on a bit of mass.

As for body fat I used a caliper. I have abs and I have veins in my lower abdomen and my legs, arms.
This is not a diet for me, is how I eat all the time. The past years I've stayed stayed lean but when I started to eat like this I was 12-13% around 275lbs.
Then I decided that it wasnt healthy to be that heavy and I shed some mass and fat to stay under 250 which I feel great for a number of years now. As I got older I preffer being lean than super heavy.

 

[vassille]

No, I wasn't cutting cals at all, just cycling macros depending on physical activity level. I'm not a big guy (see stats on first post) and 2300 is above my low active TEE, and my RMR is 1500. To lose fat, I chose to be 400 below my low active TEE which puts me @ 1900. I was @ 1400 which is probably too low.

I am going to try and few things outside of diet to speed up lipolysis while adding lean mass:

Before I train fasted, Alpha-T2/T3 stack, and down the road, I will be looking into peptides like GHRP-2, 6, CJC-1295 and look into bumping my T from the 500s to at least 800. I'm 52, after all.

Thoughts?

My point is and sooner or later you will find out from trial and error that when you eat a low carb diet many rules are not the same as eating a low fat diet. First, calories are not the same ...why? Because a well done low carb diet will increase your rest methabolic rate by a lot down the road. A good portion of your fat intake is not used in the same maner as carbs. Burning fat for fuel is totally different from what you are used with carbs.

If you plan to lose a lot of fat HGH is your best friend and working out fasted is great followed by a protein shake no carbs. That's a good move. If you can lose weight on your own skip the peptides unless you have problems then get real HGH.
Increasing the T is good too it will help if done correctly.

 

[mcs5309]

My point is and sooner or later you will find out from trial and error that when you eat a low carb diet many rules are not the same as eating a low fat diet. First, calories are not the same ...why? Because a well done low carb diet will increase your rest methabolic rate by a lot down the road. A good portion of your fat intake is not used in the same maner as carbs. Burning fat for fuel is totally different from what you are used with carbs.

If you plan to lose a lot of fat HGH is your best friend and working out fasted is great followed by a protein shake no carbs. That's a good move. If you can lose weight on your own skip the peptides unless you have problems then get real HGH.
Increasing the T is good too it will help if done correctly.

Good point on the fats as fuel source. I first heard of that when MCTs came out years ago, but didn't apply it to diet. I've eaten clean for decades now, just in the wrong % for what I needed to accomplish. I just started VLC paleo and IF about 6 mos. ago and have at least maintained, but it's wayyy too slow which is why I'm looking at chemical enhancement. Hopefully, adding the keto will help.

Have you tried any of the peptides? It's the sides of frank GH that have me concerned that don't happen on the peptides because of their action to induce natural induction of GH from the pituitary and can be dosed to mimic the pituitary's pulsatile rhythm of GH release.

 

[vassille]

Good point on the fats as fuel source. I first heard of that when MCTs came out years ago, but didn't apply it to diet. I've eaten clean for decades now, just in the wrong % for what I needed to accomplish. I just started VLC paleo and IF about 6 mos. ago and have at least maintained, but it's wayyy too slow which is why I'm looking at chemical enhancement. Hopefully, adding the keto will help.

Have you tried any of the peptides? It's the sides of frank GH that have me concerned that don't happen on the peptides because of their action to induce natural induction of GH from the pituitary and can be dosed to mimic the pituitary's pulsatile rhythm of GH release.

I do have experience with peptides but from my experience there is no substitute for good diet. Peptides will help in conjunction with a good diet not replece it. Keto works to lose fat. Give it a try. If this doesnt really work for whatever reason then ramp up your hormons such as adding test if you wish and look into T3 suplementation. GH I would suggest to get it tested first. If need it then add it. My point is that if you bring your body up to normal high hormonal levels along with keto there is no way not to lose body fat if you have the dedication to make it happen.
Im not sure I understand you question about peptides in its entirety.

 

[mcs5309]

I do have experience with peptides but from my experience there is no substitute for good diet. Peptides will help in conjunction with a good diet not replece it. Keto works to lose fat. Give it a try. If this doesnt really work for whatever reason then ramp up your hormons such as adding test if you wish and look into T3 suplementation. GH I would suggest to get it tested first. If need it then add it. My point is that if you bring your body up to normal high hormonal levels along with keto there is no way not to lose body fat if you have the dedication to make it happen.
Im not sure I understand you question about peptides in its entirety.

My last IGF-1 was 174, the lowest it's been despite taking 50mg DHEA. Because I'm hypothyroid, I've been taking 75mcg sustained-release T3 for the last 2 years but it has done nothing to help lose bf. The peptides I am referring to are the injectable ones like GHRP-6, etc. I see a lot of guys using them as a safer alternative to GH.

 

[vassille]

My last IGF-1 was 174, the lowest it's been despite taking 50mg DHEA. Because I'm hypothyroid, I've been taking 75mcg sustained-release T3 for the last 2 years but it has done nothing to help lose bf. The peptides I am referring to are the injectable ones like GHRP-6, etc. I see a lot of guys using them as a safer alternative to GH.

I see. DHEA is hit or miss. More miss imo. One peptide is not safer than another ppl take fragment because real thing is too expensive for some. If you just take HGH to bring your levels higher is safe. When it's abused it startes to have sides. For HRT you dont need more than 1IU a day and that's in extreme cases. Usually less then 1IU a day of HGH is enough to get your IGF levels to normal. Like I said if you get all your hormons in order along with a low carb diet you will lose fat.
If oyu have a thyroid problem my advice is to get it under control and within range first.

 

[mcs5309]

I see. DHEA is hit or miss. More miss imo. One peptide is not safer than another ppl take fragment because real thing is too expensive for some. If you just take HGH to bring your levels higher is safe. When it's abused it startes to have sides. For HRT you dont need more than 1IU a day and that's in extreme cases. Usually less then 1IU a day of HGH is enough to get your IGF levels to normal. Like I said if you get all your hormons in order along with a low carb diet you will lose fat.
If oyu have a thyroid problem my advice is to get it under control and within range first.

I agree on the unpredictability of DHEA. Same with pregnenolone. I am considering HGH again (took it once before but it was a tiny dose that didn't do anything), but am first thinking giving peptides a shot. It is still a struggle to get my thyroid hormones in line where my doc wants to see them because of so many other complex factors that affect them. It's not quick or easy.

 

[vassille]

I agree on the unpredictability of DHEA. Same with pregnenolone. I am considering HGH again (took it once before but it was a tiny dose that didn't do anything), but am first thinking giving peptides a shot. It is still a struggle to get my thyroid hormones in line where my doc wants to see them because of so many other complex factors that affect them. It's not quick or easy.

Then try IGF-lr3 if you want. As for thyroid it's complex i agree, some ppl may require a mix of t3/t4 and some may do well on armor. It all depends. What was your free test if you had your test tested?

 

[mcs5309]

Then try IGF-lr3 if you want. As for thyroid it's complex i agree, some ppl may require a mix of t3/t4 and some may do well on armor. It all depends. What was your free test if you had your test tested?

Yes, was looking into IGF-lr3 but don't know enough about it. Last labs in June showed TT @ 474 and Free T @ 9.9. E2 was 8. I've been holding off on T4 since it tends to increase rT3.

 

[vassille]

Yes, was looking into IGF-lr3 but don't know enough about it. Last labs in June showed TT @ 474 and Free T @ 9.9. E2 was 8. I've been holding off on T4 since it tends to increase rT3.

Free t is a bit low but E seems to be very low. At your age you prob right increasing T would help. Do some research on IGF see what you can dig up.

 

[mcs5309]

Forgot to mention - it was after starting IF (and keeping protein intake the same), my BUN levels shot up.

Again, when you have to consume all your calories in a condensed feeding window of 4-8 hours (depending on which IF regimen you choose), then wouldn't you have an extra load on your kidneys to process that much protein all at once? Thus, the increased BUN.

Has anyone noticed this as well?

Only thing I can think of: more protein for the kidneys to process because it's in a shorter eating window,

 

[mcs5309]

I have been eating low-carb paleo and IF 18/6 for the last 6 months and have been able to reduce some bodyfat which was the goal. I havbe a long way to go, so I added keto to the mix in the last couple weeks, increasing fat to about 65%, protein 30%, and carbs 5%.

2 weeks prior to starting keto, my latest CMP showed elevated BUN (36 - ref range: 6-24), elevated BUN/Creatinine ratio (39 - ref range:9-20), and elevated urinary uric acid (1118.0 - ref range: 250.0-750.0). I also showed elevated serum calcium (10.9 - ref range: 8.7-10.2). My serum uric acid (UA), however, was normal (4.6 - ref range: 3.7-8.6) as is my creatinine (0.92 - ref range 0.76-1.27) and eGFR (95 - ref range >59). There is no protein in my urine. I do not have gout. These levels have gradually increased over the last 6 mos.

Just yesterday noticed blood pressure remained elevated all day despite my usual BP-lowering supps. First time ever they had zero effect. I wonder if the increased intake of fats (SFAs) on the keto/low carb diet are causing this, as I have changed nothing else perhaps by increasing total cholesterol?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9021429
but this contradicts that:
http://weightoftheevidence.blogspot....o-to-your.html

Or could this be the beginning stages of kidney dysfunction, as it goes hand-in-hand with hypertension?

According to this article, keto may help reduce BP, but may cause kidney stones, the very thing I'm trying to prevent from recurring:
http://voices.yahoo.com/ketogenic-di...e-5349961.html

More on keto and stones:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11...kidney-stones/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621514
http://paleohacks.com/questions/1484...#axzz26twJurzQ

And this excerpt from the Paul Jaminet link above explains my elevated uric acid as well:

Uric Acid Production
One difference between a ketogenic (or zero-carb) diet and a normal diet is the high rate of protein metabolism. If both glucose and ketones are generated from protein, then over 150 g protein per day is consumed in gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis. This releases a substantial amount of nitrogen. While urea is the main pathway for nitrogen disposal, uric acid is the excretion pathway for 1% to 3% of nitrogen. [7]

This suggests that ketogenic dieters produce an extra 1 to 3 g/day uric acid from protein metabolism. A normal person excretes about 0.6 g/day. [8]

In addition to kidney stones, excess uric acid production may lead to gout. Some Atkins and low-carb Paleo dieters have contracted gout.

Perhaps I should cycle my protein intake as well as carbs? Increase fat even more?
And what amount of water is recommended for low-carbers? Gallon/day?

I'm at a loss as to what else I can do.

Any feedback appreciated!

 

[vassille]

Lower your protein to 20% and increase fat to 75% and keep carbs to 5% . We do not need all that much protein is the fat that counts. Try it and see what you get I bet everything will normalize. Drop the IF it only adds stress to your body in this case.

 

[mcs5309]

Lower your protein to 20% and increase fat to 75% and keep carbs to 5% . We do not need all that much protein is the fat that counts. Try it and see what you get I bet everything will normalize. Drop the IF it only adds stress to your body in this case.

I am new to keto as you may have guessed.

Questions for you:
1) You don't see the majority of the diet as fat as being problematic with kidney function/BP then?
2) How much water?
3) CKD or TKD?
4) The leangains IF is not a true 100% pure fast; 10-15g of BCAAs (and in my case, many other aminos) are consumed during the
"fasting" window to prevent catabolism. Maybe a modified IF for less stress? Like do 16/8 instead of 18/6 and use a high BCAA whey protein as a pre-wo meal with some fat (25g pro/25g fat) perhaps?
5) You don't think going below the 1g/lb of bodyweight for training 4x's/week will lose muscle?

 

[Distilled Water]

Interested, I've been doing lean gains for a while and have recently moved to keto. I'll try and schedule some blood work for next week (2weeks keto & IF) we shall compare results.

 

[mcs5309]

Interested, I've been doing lean gains for a while and have recently moved to keto. I'll try and schedule some blood work for next week (2weeks keto & IF) we shall compare results.

Why'd you quit IF, how long were you on it, and what were your results? Just to temporarily switch up the routine? That's not a bad idea either, sort of like with cycling macros, training routines, stacks, supps, everything. Maybe cycle IF and keto every 6 mos?

 

[Distilled Water]

Why'd you quit IF, how long were you on it, and what were your results? Just to temporarily switch up the routine? That's not a bad idea either, sort of like with cycling macros, training routines, stacks, supps, everything. Maybe cycle IF and keto every 6 mos?

I'm still doing IF, just in the form of keto. I'm getting into ketosis now but I will eventually add an intra shake (2 meals pre training) I did regular IF for 4 weeks before switching to a keto form. Verdict is still out for me, but from this, I can more easily transition into a normal CKD/TKD hybrid (for me).

 

[mcs5309]

I'm still doing IF, just in the form of keto. I'm getting into ketosis now but I will eventually add an intra shake (2 meals pre training) I did regular IF for 4 weeks before switching to a keto form. Verdict is still out for me, but from this, I can more easily transition into a normal CKD/TKD hybrid (for me).

Got it. Sounds like you want to really lean out like me. What's your bf? I've been on a mission for the last few years to get my bf down. I need to drop my bf by 50% - stuck @ 19% - that's about 16lbs of fat. Trying it all - natural for now. Have been researching into TRT and peptides for quite some time but never took the plunge because I had other issues to address.

 

[Distilled Water]

Got it. Sounds like you want to really lean out like me. What's your bf? I've been on a mission for the last few years to get my bf down. I need to drop my bf by 50% - stuck @ 19% - that's about 16lbs of fat. Trying it all - natural for now. Have been researching into TRT and peptides for quite some time but never took the plunge because I had other issues to address.

PM me, don't want to derail the thread.

 

[vassille]

I am new to keto as you may have guessed.

Questions for you:
1) You don't see the majority of the diet as fat as being problematic with kidney function/BP then?
2) How much water?
3) CKD or TKD?
4) The leangains IF is not a true 100% pure fast; 10-15g of BCAAs (and in my case, many other aminos) are consumed during the
"fasting" window to prevent catabolism. Maybe a modified IF for less stress? Like do 16/8 instead of 18/6 and use a high BCAA whey protein as a pre-wo meal with some fat (25g pro/25g fat) perhaps?
5) You don't think going below the 1g/lb of bodyweight for training 4x's/week will lose muscle?

It's ok
1. No. There is no problem with fat digestion and kidneys and BP from personal experience or otherwise. You can eat all the good fat you want within the caloric requirement for your goal. I presume you know what fat to eat.
2. Drink when thirsty.
3. In your case I'd stick with low carbs mostly from vegetables and the macros ratios I stated above. Once a week have a cheat meal 100g of carbs approx.
4.Fasting might just create the possibility of not eating enough calories and your body will go in starvation mode hence the reason lack of weight loss. I dont see the need to fast at this point. the low carb diet will work on its own for fat loss.
5. No. Reason you keeping protein at 20% is that it is shown from studies that in the abundance of fat intake our bodies use vey little protein to keep muscle mass. Is when fat is cut that our bodies burn protein for energy. This is a big fact to keep in mind. I use 1g/lb of body weight to mantain. For you to lose you need to deep below that.
THe macros I outlined is a start. Depending on the success adjustments may be need it. If you very active your caloric intake should be minimum 2500. If recovery from the gym is sub par increase calories 300cal at the time till you recover well. Without really seeing you im taking a best guess but do not cut the caloric intake too low.

 

[vassille]

Interested, I've been doing lean gains for a while and have recently moved to keto. I'll try and schedule some blood work for next week (2weeks keto & IF) we shall compare results.

Def post you thoughts and results.

 

[Distilled Water]

Def post you thoughts and results.

October 2nd is the soonest I could get in, will keep you posted