Simple vs complex carbs: the last word?

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  1. So are you aiming for over maint cals?

    That is still not all that much in the way of carbs, but good to see you are tolerating it so far... Baby steps!


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    So are you aiming for over maint cals?

    That is still not all that much in the way of carbs, but good to see you are tolerating it so far... Baby steps!
    I'm aiming at eating minimum 2gr x BW carbs, then if I can make it I'll try to go over that, but yes,
    baby steps seems the safer way for both my stomach and then i wanna see how I look after this.
    I'll take it from there. For me is a great results already to have been able to eat this much carbs and at the same
    time not craving my protein (that's totally because I'm enjoying the cereals)
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    I'm aiming at eating minimum 2gr x BW carbs, then if I can make it I'll try to go over that, but yes,
    baby steps seems the safer way for both my stomach and then i wanna see how I look after this.
    I'll take it from there. For me is a great results already to have been able to eat this much carbs and at the same
    time not craving my protein (that's totally because I'm enjoying the cereals)
    When "clean" loading meaning minimal sugars and complex carbs such as red potatoes, sushi rice, ezekiel toast etc... I managed to eat 1400g carbs..

    It worked really well but was not nearly as FUN as cereals and pop tarts.

    The look was just as full but less water retention under the skin the following day

  4. Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    When "clean" loading meaning minimal sugars and complex carbs such as red potatoes, sushi rice, ezekiel toast etc... I managed to eat 1400g carbs..

    It worked really well but was not nearly as FUN as cereals and pop tarts.

    The look was just as full but less water retention under the skin the following day
    Holy sh#t batman 1400!
    Well you're quite bigger/heavier than I am looking at the avt
    I'm just 176lbs

    I tried every clean carbs and they just upset my stomach a lot,
    bloating and and ... Cereals worked like a charm yesterday,
    today I didn't want to look at the mirror but I couldn't resist,
    result: i was much fuller (my chest was super puffed up) and
    MORE vascular, noticeable everywhere but especially on my stomach
    and my chest, which was pretty impressive since I'm usually pretty vascular
    and it ain't easy to improve that aspect.

    Now, energy-wise today nothing to report, I had the same energy in the
    gym that I always have, probably because 260gr of carbs and a lil cut on protein
    is not THAT much to experience such thing. But, i'm very happy I've been able to do
    at least that, baby steps

    Sugar content of the cereals I picked (the sugary ones) is not massive,
    they have 24gr of sugar x 100gr of product (80gr carbs)
    Rice Krispies have only 7gt of sugar, I used the sugary ones pwo
    and the Krispies for the 2nd and 3rd meals

    You say less water retention the next day with the clean carbs,
    I need to ask you this then: have you noticed if the difference (between clean and not-so clean)
    is only about the water retention the next day or also in the long term fat storage/body comp?


    I was pretty surprised today to see myself bigger/fuller and at the same time more
    vascular, I'll keep an eye on it the next days but I don't think the next day should be the "worse" right?
    I mean i don't think I'll lose tone/definition days after the refeed.. especially thinking I'm back in cal deficit
    (my regular diet) already.
    I didn't count calories but honestly I don't even think I went much higher than a regular day IF I went higher
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  5. How tall are you ^^ Just curious.

    Atleast you got one down. Now time to increase it.

    Quite honestly I don't count anything. I just EAT CARBS.lol I easily can get over 2k g's without even trying these days. I typically tend not to hold a lot of sub-q water either way, and any that I am holding is gone within 1 full day post refeed, and that is on a non workout day.

    What typically will happen is you will flatten out as the week goes on, you don't lose definition, quite the opposite, but you likely will be much flatter. At least for me there is a pretty huge difference between "flat" and "full" in terms of appearance.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    How tall are you ^^ Just curious.

    Atleast you got one down. Now time to increase it.

    Quite honestly I don't count anything. I just EAT CARBS.lol I easily can get over 2k g's without even trying these days. I typically tend not to hold a lot of sub-q water either way, and any that I am holding is gone within 1 full day post refeed, and that is on a non workout day.

    What typically will happen is you will flatten out as the week goes on, you don't lose definition, quite the opposite, but you likely will be much flatter. At least for me there is a pretty huge difference between "flat" and "full" in terms of appearance.
    Yeah i gotta say it this was the first time I actually looked better
    in the mirror after a refeed, my chest was seriously bigger and had veins
    all over (i mean more than usual lol..) it makes sense because the refeed
    started pwo, chest day (as for McDonald I think advice, doing the refeed
    between two heavy wo days instead of day off makes it somewhat anabolic)
    And definitely I was more vascular, meaning - even if I didn't actually drop any body fat
    which would be silly to expect with just one refeed, and even small-ish - my BF
    wasn't varied, which coupled with the fullness makes happy times indeed.
    So experiment went well so far.
    Something to mention is, I've been able to eat as much as i planned as minimum,
    but I also had to concentrate all my meals in the last part of the day because
    i had to work the whole day after wo, so next time I'll actually have the whole day
    and I'll be able to spread out a bit and feel less full probably (last meal was hard to
    put down lol but i did it anyway)

    I'm 5'9" bro
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  7. 5'9, 176 at that bf, is pretty damn solid especially eating as restricted as you do. Even more so because it seems like you stay that lean year round. You must have some decent genetics my friend!

    Keep us updated on next weeks

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    5'9, 176 at that bf, is pretty damn solid especially eating as restricted as you do. Even more so because it seems like you stay that lean year round. You must have some decent genetics my friend!

    Keep us updated on next weeks
    Thinkin the same thing....I compete Nationally and his avatar is contest conditioning...(from what is exposed) I would need to see lower back /kidney area too......but damn. Are you hormonally enhanced, because that conditioning at that body weight is an anomaly for natural ability....a rarity if you will...

    Regarding les subQ water....well when I load on simple sugars I tend to spill over the next day and the following day after that water expels....

    On complex carbs I seem less watery the following day but think about this! When MOST load or refeed, they consume MINIMAL water as they are stuffed from all the carbs,

    Next day, you WAKE UP somewhat "dry" regardless of simple or complex because you are likely mildly dehydrated. As the day goes on and you drink high amounts of fluid.....thats when the "spilling effect" manifests.....

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    5'9, 176 at that bf, is pretty damn solid especially eating as restricted as you do. Even more so because it seems like you stay that lean year round. You must have some decent genetics my friend!

    Keep us updated on next weeks
    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Thinkin the same thing....I compete Nationally and his avatar is contest conditioning...(from what is exposed) I would need to see lower back /kidney area too......but damn. Are you hormonally enhanced, because that conditioning at that body weight is an anomaly for natural ability....a rarity if you will...

    Regarding les subQ water....well when I load on simple sugars I tend to spill over the next day and the following day after that water expels....

    On complex carbs I seem less watery the following day but think about this! When MOST load or refeed, they consume MINIMAL water as they are stuffed from all the carbs,

    Next day, you WAKE UP somewhat "dry" regardless of simple or complex because you are likely mildly dehydrated. As the day goes on and you drink high amounts of fluid.....thats when the "spilling effect" manifests.....
    Thanks guys

    Matt, coming from you this is a hell of a compliment,
    i don't have much self confidence really and I'm never happy with
    my body, but really I would have never expected such compliment
    thank you

    Also thank you for the explanation on the carbs/water, it makes totally sense yes.
    As for my back I do have a picture take a coupla weeks ago,
    I was tracking results from my E-Bol/Lit-Up stack (very nice btw, for a natty )
    Now I'm a bit leaner and almost 4lbs heavier than this but well, just a bit leaner really (now I mean)

    Also please don't laugh, I have absolutely NO IDEA how to pose in general, and even less
    how to flex the damn back/xmas tree lol, I tried, I just can't make it
    But i snapped a pic of my back because I was trying to actually catch it
    on tape because the lines at the bottom of my back started to show up some so.. yeah here it is:

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  10. You are peeled man, with some tremendously thin skin. I can't even believe you have packed on that much mass eating as restricted as you do. It is pretty phenomenal actually, and even more so as a natural.

    I know it doesn't fit in your goals, and it would never happen, but I can't help but think about if you actually BULKED, even cutting it short at about 10-11% BF, and the kind of mass you could probably accumulate.

    I think these refeeds may help things further. At your level of leanness, and if you don't want to do an all out refeed as some of us do, 2 a week is a viable option done closer to how you did the last one.

    Seriously bud, you appear to have some VERY good genetics, you should really exploit them.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    You are peeled man, with some tremendously thin skin. I can't even believe you have packed on that much mass eating as restricted as you do. It is pretty phenomenal actually, and even more so as a natural.

    I know it doesn't fit in your goals, and it would never happen, but I can't help but think about if you actually BULKED, even cutting it short at about 10-11% BF, and the kind of mass you could probably accumulate.

    I think these refeeds may help things further. At your level of leanness, and if you don't want to do an all out refeed as some of us do, 2 a week is a viable option done closer to how you did the last one.

    Seriously bud, you appear to have some VERY good genetics, you should really exploit them.
    Thank you bro
    got me off balance really ahah,
    as i've never seen myself as nothing
    but normo-good-ish genetic type lol

    But I'm also not completely blind and
    I am ok with my actual condition considering
    I've always been natty.

    I wouldn't bulk you're right but i am indeed
    convinced I can get out more out of myself,
    considering all this in - as you said - such cal
    restriction and strict diet (lol mass out of rage and willpower)
    and I'm convinced that the refeed protocol, once I nail the right
    formula, could bring some nice improvement.
    My body probably is starving from nutrients and such
    I can sense giving it a tad more in the right way
    could do wonders, that's why I've been so stubborn about
    it and harassed the board for advice
    But the last experiment went good, I'd say great,
    I'll keep going, track results and report.

    Actually, as I mentioned, today - 3 days from the refeed -
    I can def say my cuts look deeper and overall i feel fuller
    and vascularity isn't changed, if anything is better
    my legs are roadmap all day long and well.. I do think I look better
    and I usually don't have that impression lol if that makes any sense
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  12. I am trying to follow along... I am staying quite though. This is a very complex diet to follow... I suppose someone of my stature shouldnt be trying this. I am going to read up on refeeds, loading ect. because right now I am blown away. If not to much to ask can one of you that is doing this post 1 day activities/diet/workout/anything so I can grasp a little of how and why this tactic is used? If not here any particular sites you refer to?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    You are peeled man, with some tremendously thin skin. I can't even believe you have packed on that much mass eating as restricted as you do. It is pretty phenomenal actually, and even more so as a natural.

    I know it doesn't fit in your goals, and it would never happen, but I can't help but think about if you actually BULKED, even cutting it short at about 10-11% BF, and the kind of mass you could probably accumulate.

    I think these refeeds may help things further. At your level of leanness, and if you don't want to do an all out refeed as some of us do, 2 a week is a viable option done closer to how you did the last one.

    Seriously bud, you appear to have some VERY good genetics, you should really exploit them.
    Most likely without being hormonally assisted him bulking would not be NEARLY as impressive as him staying this lean year around. As a natural, you would have less likelihood of "blowing up lean" since you wouldnt have optimal hormone levels to partition MOST nutrients to muscle cells and less to fat cells.

    If you ever did such a practice natural, I would say your best bet would be to do STRICT 'mini diets" and go above maintenance for 3 weeks MAX before cutting again.

    Can you imagine this guy hormonally assisted? If you ever did want to take hormones as safe and legal as possible. PM me and I can perhaps get you a sponsored log on some of our products.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Most likely without being hormonally assisted him bulking would not be NEARLY as impressive as him staying this lean year around. As a natural, you would have less likelihood of "blowing up lean" since you wouldnt have optimal hormone levels to partition MOST nutrients to muscle cells and less to fat cells.

    If you ever did such a practice natural, I would say your best bet would be to do STRICT 'mini diets" and go above maintenance for 3 weeks MAX before cutting again.

    Can you imagine this guy hormonally assisted? If you ever did want to take hormones as safe and legal as possible. PM me and I can perhaps get you a sponsored log on some of our products.
    Bulking is a very difficult thing to do unassisted if you are not willing to put on a lot of extra fat. Then you will have to work quite hard and use assistance to cut back. I know others will disagree but this is just how it goes... Unless you are very far from genetic limit.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  15. Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Most likely without being hormonally assisted him bulking would not be NEARLY as impressive as him staying this lean year around. As a natural, you would have less likelihood of "blowing up lean" since you wouldnt have optimal hormone levels to partition MOST nutrients to muscle cells and less to fat cells.

    If you ever did such a practice natural, I would say your best bet would be to do STRICT 'mini diets" and go above maintenance for 3 weeks MAX before cutting again.

    Can you imagine this guy hormonally assisted? If you ever did want to take hormones as safe and legal as possible. PM me and I can perhaps get you a sponsored log on some of our products.
    By bulking I am more talking like what you are referring to, and not "BULKING" with the intention of getting big and doughy. Even getting up around a legit 10%, backing it down a bit, repeat. He clearly has an amazing ability to not only retain muscle, but GAIN muscle in what appears like damn near stage ready condition. In his case maybe even coming up to 7-8%, backing down, etc. I am a big fan of the "mini diet" approach myself.

    I just am impressed he has accumulated what he has, on what seems like an absurd amount of time on ZERO carbs, and in a crazy calorie restriction.

    Assisted, it would likely be absurd...LOL

    Remind me to bitch slap my parents tomorrow at Thanksgiving dinner for the **** genetics..LMAO

    Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Bulking is a very difficult thing to do unassisted if you are not willing to put on a lot of extra fat. Then you will have to work quite hard and use assistance to cut back. I know others will disagree but this is just how it goes... Unless you are very far from genetic limit.
    Or you are genetically gifted.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds View Post
    Remind me to bitch slap my parents tomorrow at Thanksgiving dinner for the **** genetics..LMAO


    Or you are genetically gifted.
    quoted for truth lol.

    My mom starved the entire time she was pregnant with me... said she would throw up everything she ate.. surprised I was even developed... My genes tell my body to EAT and store FAT. Thanks mom....
    RecoverBro ELITE

  17. Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Most likely without being hormonally assisted him bulking would not be NEARLY as impressive as him staying this lean year around. As a natural, you would have less likelihood of "blowing up lean" since you wouldnt have optimal hormone levels to partition MOST nutrients to muscle cells and less to fat cells.

    If you ever did such a practice natural, I would say your best bet would be to do STRICT 'mini diets" and go above maintenance for 3 weeks MAX before cutting again.

    Can you imagine this guy hormonally assisted? If you ever did want to take hormones as safe and legal as possible. PM me and I can perhaps get you a sponsored log on some of our products.
    Without having any experience at bulking, that would be my guess too
    Believe it or not, I've been "peeking" in some PP 3d in here
    because I've always said the andro series would have been
    the *only* line I would have tried if I ever did want to take that route,
    you can probably see my posts around, no kidding.
    I'm probably close to what I can achieve naturally,
    gods know I train as hard as i stick to my diet.. I mean, I'm 34,
    I have considered it yes, especially because such a strict diet
    and hc training brings sides probably more than a cycle lol

    But I know really absolute nothing about PHs, I'd really need assistance
    and help with everything, diet, dosing, interaction with other things.. etc
    Ima PM you tho' if anything, even just to get info, and thank you for this
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  18. Good luck on this log man!!
    Imma run andromass most likely lol.
    Ran hard and lean.
    RecoverBro ELITE

  19. Quote Originally Posted by mattrag View Post
    Good luck on this log man!!
    Imma run andromass most likely lol.
    Ran hard and lean.
    thanks bro
    They are tempting indeed, we'll see
    it would be a whole new game for me
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    thanks bro
    They are tempting indeed, we'll see
    it would be a whole new game for me
    Do you have or are you starting a log?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Budman7811 View Post
    Do you have or are you starting a log?
    I currently have a semi sponsored log for the Swole Stack in here,
    I don't know yet if I'm gonna pick this one up, I am considering it now yes,
    but I will talk to Matt in private first for both advice and see if that's gonna actually happen.
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  22. Aren't you in the UK?

  23. What's the popular GDAs out there: I know and use glycobol, but there's slin-sane and another really popular on that I though started with an "S" as well....
    Any1 can recall?
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    What's the popular GDAs out there: I know and use glycobol, but there's slin-sane and another really popular on that I though started with an "S" as well....
    Any1 can recall?
    NTBM has need 2 slin and there is also recompadrol that i have heard of

  25. Quote Originally Posted by mkretz

    NTBM has need 2 slin and there is also recompadrol that i have heard of
    I picked up some slin-sane to try
    Hardcore Purus Labs {Rep}
    Lift the fücking weight from the floor, or leave it on the ground. The thoughts are supposed to be daunting. The pain is meant to be tormenting.

  26. I am nothing like you by a long shot.
    But when I was doing refeeds (getting ready to start next week again) I was using quinoa and grinding it into my shakes PWO and I found that if I did two sometimes 3 refeed days in a row that I felt much much better, and when I finished my refeeds I was a couple lbs heavier until the second day of low carb and I found that I looked harder, and more defined when I did this and I looked much more vascular.
    I read some science behind trying 2-3 days of refeeds in a row about two years ago and that is when I started trying it and found that it worked better for me than just one day. I also saw my strength go up.
    But everyone is different and you being at such a low BF that might bump you up some, but for me I found it was actually burning fat in the long run.
  27. the results are blatantly clear: It doesn't matter what the carb source is.


    I just wanted to add something *very* interesting to this thread, which was my original question.

    I found a thread on another board, specifically a post by Ken "Skip" Hill (man needs no introduction),
    the thread/post is called "Guinea Pig Experiment" and this is Mr. Hill first post than I'm freely copy/pasting here,
    post that really seems a direct reply to my original question (of course is not, but I am grateful I found it nonetheless )

    Dated 05-03-2011 so not like 6 years ago..

    The Guinea Pig Experiment
    Yeah .... it takes me a while.

    Finally wanted to post some details of what the Guinea Pig experiment is and how it is going. It is very simple, really, and most of you know that when others preach on the boards about what works and what doesn't, I PROVE what works and what doesn't and I don't believe anyone until I see it for myself. I have debunked many concepts that people seem to think are either tried and true or written in stone over the last 10 years.

    The latest? I took on 15 people to see whether the carb source matters or not. This has NOTHING to do with health, this is entirely about whether you can lose body fat, gain muscle (or maintain muscle) and improve your condition. We are monitoring strength gains, bodyweight, hunger, etc.. Pretty much all of the things you would monitor on any other diet.

    I honestly wasn't sure and had no real preconceived notions going in. I did think it was very possible that the carb sources didn't matter but .... just wanted to see first hand.

    The results SO FAR (after 2 months)?? Every single person of the 15 that are committed and consistent are losing body fat and gaining strength without hunger being any more of an issue than with clean carb sources. Of the 15 I have 3 or 4 that aren't 100% consistent for different reasons but the others that are, the results are blatantly clear: It doesn't matter what the carb source is.

    The guidelines for carbs sources for this diet are simple, as well: They cannot be clean carb sources - they HAVE to be refined carbs with low fat just as you would use for a Skipload. You can even use full-flavor SODA. That means these guys are eating pancakes, cereal, low-fat cookies, you name it. They are essentially using the same carb sources that they are Skiploading with on the weekends. And, yes, they are STILL SKIPLOADING.

    The experiment isn't done yet as we still have about another month or so but I don't anticipate the results changing, all of a sudden, after being successful for the first 2 months.

    What does this prove? Not much for health because I have no idea whether this would be a good idea for your health or what impact it would have on your blood panel. What it clearly shows to ME is that even contest prep may be changing for my clients very soon. Oh, and if you hear someone argue that I am nuts or this can't work, just know they don't have a ****ing clue. They are simply regurgitating what they have HEARD from others. I know it will work because I am seeing it first hand.

    I would encourage my clients that are doing this plan to get in here and freely discuss their results, so far, with anyone that has any questions.

    Skip


    While there's not much to add to this, i do want to update my experience which is directly connected
    to Ken's report.
    I'm now heading towards my 8th refeed, in my previous 7 refeeds I've been slowly increasing
    my carb intake each time, that's because as you guys know I had problem downing all the carbs (and all
    that food for what matters) due to my small a## stomach (again due to my long term low carbs/low cals diet).
    Following McDonald's refeed guide for macros, timing, calories to aim for, carbs to aim for, etc..
    I'm now very close to what the ideal carb/cals intake for my refeed is for me and I've been using
    as my only source of carbs breakfast cereals.

    Yes, like cheerios and rice krispies.

    With water and something like 5gr of whey for flavor. Fats around 10gr or so and protein
    a bit less of my normal daily intake (not for any reason if that I still have hard time downing all that food
    in one day, so I give priority to carbs since it's refeed/carb-up).

    Results are pretty amazing for me so far, my strength went up overall, nothing mindblowing
    but enough to beat my PRs on all the compound exercises and going up with weights pretty much
    everywhere, and most important, I am doing absolutely *lean* gains.
    Now, this in my world translates in very lil gains of course as I'm in cal deficit the rest of the week,
    but still pretty impressive.
    My muscles looks MUCH fuller, more than with any other supplements that is suppose to make you
    look fuller, size actually increased and my BF is not only the same but if anything even better, same for
    vascularity (actually this one is noticeably better)
    I don't even seem to retain water the next day, I wake up in the morning (after the refeed) super tight.

    So, I can only confirm from personal experience that Ken Hill's finding is actually true (at least for me).
    I do believe this is a very subjective matter, and I also start to believe it has to do with individuals,
    what we digest well and whatnot (like my body hates oats and potatoes for example)

    If I can get around it, I'll even post some new pictures
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    Recompadrol & AAV2 - PM me with any questions

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