Simple vs complex carbs: the last word? - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 3

Simple vs complex carbs: the last word?

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  1. AK DoubleWide 47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budman7811 View Post
    Do you have or are you starting a log?
    I currently have a semi sponsored log for the Swole Stack in here,
    I don't know yet if I'm gonna pick this one up, I am considering it now yes,
    but I will talk to Matt in private first for both advice and see if that's gonna actually happen.
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    Aren't you in the UK?
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    What's the popular GDAs out there: I know and use glycobol, but there's slin-sane and another really popular on that I though started with an "S" as well....
    Any1 can recall?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    What's the popular GDAs out there: I know and use glycobol, but there's slin-sane and another really popular on that I though started with an "S" as well....
    Any1 can recall?
    **** has need 2 slin and there is also recompadrol that i have heard of
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkretz

    **** has need 2 slin and there is also recompadrol that i have heard of
    I picked up some slin-sane to try
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoKal47 View Post
    I currently have a semi sponsored log for the Swole Stack in here,
    I don't know yet if I'm gonna pick this one up, I am considering it now yes,
    but I will talk to Matt in private first for both advice and see if that's gonna actually happen.
    AutoKal I dont think I got your Pm, try emailing me matt.porter@primordialperforma nce.com

    -Matt
  7. AK DoubleWide 47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    AutoKal I dont think I got your Pm, try emailing me matt.porter@primordialperforma nce.com

    -Matt
    Hey Matt, yeah I don't think you did
    will do that thanks mate
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    I am nothing like you by a long shot.
    But when I was doing refeeds (getting ready to start next week again) I was using quinoa and grinding it into my shakes PWO and I found that if I did two sometimes 3 refeed days in a row that I felt much much better, and when I finished my refeeds I was a couple lbs heavier until the second day of low carb and I found that I looked harder, and more defined when I did this and I looked much more vascular.
    I read some science behind trying 2-3 days of refeeds in a row about two years ago and that is when I started trying it and found that it worked better for me than just one day. I also saw my strength go up.
    But everyone is different and you being at such a low BF that might bump you up some, but for me I found it was actually burning fat in the long run.
  9. AK DoubleWide 47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    AutoKal I dont think I got your Pm, try emailing me matt.porter@primordialperforma nce.com

    -Matt
    Hey Matt, mail sent, lemme know if you got it ok

    PS: I just won 30$ voucher for Quest Bars on FB, sweet!
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  10. AK DoubleWide 47
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    the results are blatantly clear: It doesn't matter what the carb source is.


    I just wanted to add something *very* interesting to this thread, which was my original question.

    I found a thread on another board, specifically a post by Ken "Skip" Hill (man needs no introduction),
    the thread/post is called "Guinea Pig Experiment" and this is Mr. Hill first post than I'm freely copy/pasting here,
    post that really seems a direct reply to my original question (of course is not, but I am grateful I found it nonetheless )

    Dated 05-03-2011 so not like 6 years ago..

    The Guinea Pig Experiment
    Yeah .... it takes me a while.

    Finally wanted to post some details of what the Guinea Pig experiment is and how it is going. It is very simple, really, and most of you know that when others preach on the boards about what works and what doesn't, I PROVE what works and what doesn't and I don't believe anyone until I see it for myself. I have debunked many concepts that people seem to think are either tried and true or written in stone over the last 10 years.

    The latest? I took on 15 people to see whether the carb source matters or not. This has NOTHING to do with health, this is entirely about whether you can lose body fat, gain muscle (or maintain muscle) and improve your condition. We are monitoring strength gains, bodyweight, hunger, etc.. Pretty much all of the things you would monitor on any other diet.

    I honestly wasn't sure and had no real preconceived notions going in. I did think it was very possible that the carb sources didn't matter but .... just wanted to see first hand.

    The results SO FAR (after 2 months)?? Every single person of the 15 that are committed and consistent are losing body fat and gaining strength without hunger being any more of an issue than with clean carb sources. Of the 15 I have 3 or 4 that aren't 100% consistent for different reasons but the others that are, the results are blatantly clear: It doesn't matter what the carb source is.

    The guidelines for carbs sources for this diet are simple, as well: They cannot be clean carb sources - they HAVE to be refined carbs with low fat just as you would use for a Skipload. You can even use full-flavor SODA. That means these guys are eating pancakes, cereal, low-fat cookies, you name it. They are essentially using the same carb sources that they are Skiploading with on the weekends. And, yes, they are STILL SKIPLOADING.

    The experiment isn't done yet as we still have about another month or so but I don't anticipate the results changing, all of a sudden, after being successful for the first 2 months.

    What does this prove? Not much for health because I have no idea whether this would be a good idea for your health or what impact it would have on your blood panel. What it clearly shows to ME is that even contest prep may be changing for my clients very soon. Oh, and if you hear someone argue that I am nuts or this can't work, just know they don't have a ****ing clue. They are simply regurgitating what they have HEARD from others. I know it will work because I am seeing it first hand.

    I would encourage my clients that are doing this plan to get in here and freely discuss their results, so far, with anyone that has any questions.

    Skip


    While there's not much to add to this, i do want to update my experience which is directly connected
    to Ken's report.
    I'm now heading towards my 8th refeed, in my previous 7 refeeds I've been slowly increasing
    my carb intake each time, that's because as you guys know I had problem downing all the carbs (and all
    that food for what matters) due to my small a## stomach (again due to my long term low carbs/low cals diet).
    Following McDonald's refeed guide for macros, timing, calories to aim for, carbs to aim for, etc..
    I'm now very close to what the ideal carb/cals intake for my refeed is for me and I've been using
    as my only source of carbs breakfast cereals.

    Yes, like cheerios and rice krispies.

    With water and something like 5gr of whey for flavor. Fats around 10gr or so and protein
    a bit less of my normal daily intake (not for any reason if that I still have hard time downing all that food
    in one day, so I give priority to carbs since it's refeed/carb-up).

    Results are pretty amazing for me so far, my strength went up overall, nothing mindblowing
    but enough to beat my PRs on all the compound exercises and going up with weights pretty much
    everywhere, and most important, I am doing absolutely *lean* gains.
    Now, this in my world translates in very lil gains of course as I'm in cal deficit the rest of the week,
    but still pretty impressive.
    My muscles looks MUCH fuller, more than with any other supplements that is suppose to make you
    look fuller, size actually increased and my BF is not only the same but if anything even better, same for
    vascularity (actually this one is noticeably better)
    I don't even seem to retain water the next day, I wake up in the morning (after the refeed) super tight.

    So, I can only confirm from personal experience that Ken Hill's finding is actually true (at least for me).
    I do believe this is a very subjective matter, and I also start to believe it has to do with individuals,
    what we digest well and whatnot (like my body hates oats and potatoes for example)

    If I can get around it, I'll even post some new pictures
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    Good stuff man! I have linked that thread of SKIPS a bunch of times as I think it is a good read. I find for refeeds simple is the way to go.

    Even in the carbs I have during the week, I pretty much threw the GI out the window, and have been in the best shape of my life ever since..lol I eat the carbs I like/respond well to and stick to my macro target.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds
    Good stuff man! I have linked that thread of SKIPS a bunch of times as I think it is a good read. I find for refeeds simple is the way to go.

    Even in the carbs I have during the week, I pretty much threw the GI out the window, and have been in the best shape of my life ever since..lol I eat the carbs I like/respond well to and stick to my macro target.
    What's your macro target?
    You on a 40/30/30 45/35/20?
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    Also what you guys are speaking of I've heard before...
    "experts" say it should only matter if your diabetic... To the norm carbs are carbs...
    So it was good news hearing it again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    What's your macro target?
    You on a 40/30/30 45/35/20?
    I don't set them like that(ie %'s)
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    AutoKal - Good as always. Keep bringing it u shredded pimp!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Reynolds
    I don't set them like that(ie %'s)
    U just have a set # amount?
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  17. AK DoubleWide 47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    U just have a set # amount?
    I know the question wasn't for me but this is the guideline I'm following (a mix of Skipload and McDonalds protocols),
    my carb-up is done on legs day, the day before I do direct hypertrophy arms workout (because of my program, that is not needed) but the important part is that is followed by a full body depletion workout, the day after the refeed is another high intensity and volume day, back workout.
    So the carb-up is begins right after a heavy day wo and followed by another one (the heaviest actually)
    and depletion the day before.

    I'll give you the keypoints:

    When to start
    The carb-up should begin immediately following training. A delay of even 2 hours between the end of training and the start of the carb-up causes glycogen resynthesis to be 47% slower than if carbs are consumed immediately.
    A good rule of thumb is to consume 1.5 grams of carbs/kg lean body mass, with approximately one half as much protein, immediately after training and then again two hours
    Summary of Guidelines for the Carb-Load
    1. 8-10 grams of carbohydrates per kilogram of lean body mass should be consumed during the initial 24 hours of the carb-load. This will make up 70% of the total calories consumed. During the second 24 hours, approximately 5 grams/kg should be consumed which will be approximately 60% of the total calories consumed.
    2. Protein intake should be approximately 1 gram per pound during all phases of the carb-load. In the first 24 hours, this will represent about 15% of total calories, in the second 24 hours, this will represent about 25% of total calories.
    3. Fat intake should be kept at 15% of total calories during the first 24 hours, or a maximum of 88 grams of fat. Fat intake should be roughly cut in half during the second 24 hours of the carb-load.
    Sample calculations for a carb-load for different body weights So simplify the calculations for the carb-load, the following charts give approximate amounts of protein, fat, carbohydrate, and total calories for the carb-load phase, based on different amounts of lean body mass.
    During the first 24 hours of carb-loading, carbohydrate intake should be 10 grams per kilogram of lean body mass or 4.5 grams of carbs per pound of lean body mass . This will represent 70% of the total calories consumed. The remaining calories will be divided evenly between fat (15% of total calories) and protein (15% of total calories). Figure 1 gives estimated amounts of carbohydrate, protein and fat for various amounts of lean body mass.
    Figure 1: Summary of nutrient intake during first 24 hours of carb-loading
    Lean body mass (pounds) Carb (grams) Fat (grams) Protein (grams) Total calories*
    140 630 60 135 3600
    160 720 68 153 4100
    180 810 76 172 4600
    200 900 85 193 5100

    Once again, the above amounts should be considered guidelines only. Experimentation coupled with good record keeping will help an individual determine the optimal amounts of nutrients to consume during their carb-up.

    Skip keypoint on water intake:drink plenty before, cut water during refeed, drink again after it. Keep the sodium high
    AND the water intake high. We're talking a ridiculous amount of water.
    But really, I started much lower that than (cause I couldn't down the food) and went up, worked my way slowly
    monitoring what food was working, amount etc.. And also my advice is be patient, and try ONE or TWO type of
    food at the time, in this way you will have less variables in the picture and it will be much easier to monitor results
    and adjust type of food and quantity if needed
    Also you need to consider you actual BF and body composition, especially when you're about
    to count calorie intake for the refeed and frequency, I do it once a week, I could probably
    do it once every 5 days but next step for me is I'm gonna have one carb-up a week
    and one higher calorie day that I will do a mini fat load
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    Excellent AK.
    respect you for taking the time to provide a solid answer. Seems it's an in-depth plan on the way to use carbs lol.
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    I don't track anything on my refeed. I keep fat low, carbs high, and go at it. It is the one day I don't need to think about anything in terms of food..lol I also don't even concern myself with protein. It just kind of works itself out.

    I also start mine first thing in the morning, on a Saturday, which is an off day.

    I have been doing this for 4-5 years now, so I have it dialed in fairly good. I eat based on hunger, and try not to make myself sick..lol

    Again, people will have varying opinions on this. Lyle likes to do it like AK on a training day, Skip an off day, etc. You just gotta pick one, run it for a while, then try the other, or just stick with the first one if it worked out well.
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    This is what I do with people I help:

    I always start them off with very simple , easy to process carbohydrates. white potatoes, white rice, rice cakes, kids cereals, bagels etc....

    I do this for a few reasons ---

    Usually coming from an off-season, people are somewhat "stuffed" and have lost there feeling of "true hunger" so eating 7 regimented clean meals is actually really difficult in the beginning phases.

    Therefore simply carbs with NO fiber will digest fast, and bypass through the Gi tract much more efficiently, making room for the next meal easier to endure.

    As the person progresses and gets LEANER, their hunger signals become stronger and those simple carbs just arent "cutting it." Then I will switch them out for more fibrous carbs to simply satiate the person, and make them not go crazy after each meal.

    Once they are lean enough and switch to complex carbs, then I refeed them back on the simple carbs once a week, maybe twice depending on the person.

    Now I know I could definitely let them eat simple carbs ALL throughout the prep, but the hunger and their jacked metabolic rate just needs the more nutrient dense foods at that time.

    In 2010, I ate 400g carbs ALL throughout my prep until 4 weeks out when I rotated carbs. My carbs were jasmine rice, flourless bread, and yams w/pumpkin spice and splenda.

    My refeeds would be for 18 hours and were intense. Felt like utter crap by the end of the day, but came into some of the best condition on that particular diet.

    Of course the morning of the show was a good ol' sh!tload.

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    This is what I do with people I help:

    I always start them off with very simple , easy to process carbohydrates. white potatoes, white rice, rice cakes, kids cereals, bagels etc....

    I do this for a few reasons ---

    Usually coming from an off-season, people are somewhat "stuffed" and have lost there feeling of "true hunger" so eating 7 regimented clean meals is actually really difficult in the beginning phases.

    Therefore simply carbs with NO fiber will digest fast, and bypass through the Gi tract much more efficiently, making room for the next meal easier to endure.

    As the person progresses and gets LEANER, their hunger signals become stronger and those simple carbs just arent "cutting it." Then I will switch them out for more fibrous carbs to simply satiate the person, and make them not go crazy after each meal.

    Once they are lean enough and switch to complex carbs, then I refeed them back on the simple carbs once a week, maybe twice depending on the person.

    Now I know I could definitely let them eat simple carbs ALL throughout the prep, but the hunger and their jacked metabolic rate just needs the more nutrient dense foods at that time.

    In 2010, I ate 400g carbs ALL throughout my prep until 4 weeks out when I rotated carbs. My carbs were jasmine rice, flourless bread, and yams w/pumpkin spice and splenda.

    My refeeds would be for 18 hours and were intense. Felt like utter crap by the end of the day, but came into some of the best condition on that particular diet.

    Of course the morning of the show was a good ol' sh!tload.

    -Matt
    Great info bro! And killer condition

    Today I kinda "hit the wall", yesterday's wo (chest/tris) was insane for me, one of the best ever,
    lost track of time and went on waaaay to long (lol imagine how long that translate in human time when *I* say that..)
    Today went for me deadlift-lowerback/squats/abs say and I had no strength, never happened in the last two months.
    It was so obvious that I didn't even try to fight (first time in my life, no sh#t) also I kinda hurt my shoulder yesterday so
    it seemed a good idea to lower the weights and concentrating more on reps and the isolating exercises and I stretched the
    abs session a bit, and then I decided to give the mini-fat load a shot (even because I'm as far as it gets in the week from
    refeed/carb-up), gonna eat avocado, macadamia nuts, EVOO and some fish and be back tomorrow for upperback/traps/shoudlers
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    Matt = DIESEL!

    Good work bro

    Competition Stats?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Matt = DIESEL!

    Good work bro

    Competition Stats?
    Thanks.

    I am not very big on contest day --- after being dehydrated etc....

    217 lbs at 5 10'

    I am taking over 1 year off now to bring up my stage weight to hopefully a super heavy-weight in the 230-235 neighborhood.

    Eating hard and training hard until 2013...

    -Matt
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    Atta boy. Good luck manggg

    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Thanks.

    I am not very big on contest day --- after being dehydrated etc....

    217 lbs at 5 10'

    I am taking over 1 year off now to bring up my stage weight to hopefully a super heavy-weight in the 230-235 neighborhood.

    Eating hard and training hard until 2013...

    -Matt
    A-Minds HYPE-SLAYER! All posts & feedback are guaranteed to be unsolicited and legit
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