Vegan/Vegetarian bodybuilding

[JeremyT]

Hey guys,

As of late I have come across new information regarding meat/dairy intake and health, as well as info on the ****ty meat industry in the US and Canada and the low low quality of meat that is being produced, so I decided for the time being to take a break from meat. I should also preface this by saying I'm allergic to soy, so all the usual vegan soy crap is no good. I can already hear the grumbling from the crowd on this one, but is there any lifters out there that don't eat meat, and if so what are your protein/carb/fat numbers like, and what do you eat to get what you feel is enough? Im generally a pretty high carb guy anyways, so for me, it doesn't feel bad so far. Or I'm always down to hear any arguments for different kinds of meat, hopefully more intelligible then I LOVE BACON, because, even I love bacon. Thanks guys.

[Blergs]

I havent eatin any meat for YEARS.
I have about 3-4 60g whey drinks a day and then lots of food (snack on nuts) and add oliv oil to you protein drinks.

[JudoJosh]

Eatwild.com

Enter your state and find yourself a local farmer. Go visit the farms, talk with the farmers and get to know them. You should be able to find someone who raises cows and doesn't feed them corn and grains. The way it usually works is you put a order in for a share which is around a 6th of a cow and they raise the cows based upon how many orders they get. Once the cow is grown it is sent to slaughter and you go pick it up. I know my farmer and my butcher and have a great professional relationship with both of them.

This should solve your problem if your concern is the quality of your meat. Conventional beef is horrible! I also have a lady that raises chickens and sells the eggs. I get most of my protein from my beef, eggs and wild caught fish. Don't let the poor standards of the USDA and conventional food take away meat from you.

[Blergs]

Eatwild.com

Enter your state and find yourself a local farmer. Go visit the farms, talk with the farmers and get to know them. You should be able to find someone who raises cows and doesn't feed them corn and grains. The way it usually works is you put a order in for a share which is around a 6th of a cow and they raise the cows based upon how many orders they get. Once the cow is grown it is sent to slaughter and you go pick it up. I know my farmer and my butcher and have a great professional relationship with both of them.

This should solve your problem if your concern is the quality of your meat. Conventional beef is horrible! I also have a lady that raises chickens and sells the eggs. I get most of my protein from my beef, eggs and wild caught fish. Don't let the poor standards of the USDA and conventional food take away meat from you.

exacly! :-)
let morals, advancments in science and knowledge do that, you will be better off. ;-)
killing is killing, if i needotkill to eatill do it, **** ill eat aperson if i had to. but we dont (mostof us) so why do we still? desensitization? (because god put therem here for us? lol) anyway im not one to preach so ill stop lol,

[Blergs]

I will agree with you though at the very least in NOT supporting the mass slaughter of ****ty meat full of unhealthy crap and miss treated animals from companies like mcdonalds, KFC, BK etc.

[JudoJosh]

exacly! :-)
let morals, advancments in science and knowledge do that, you will be better off. ;-)
killing is killing, if i needotkill to eatill do it, **** ill eat aperson if i had to. but we dont (mostof us) so why do we still? desensitization? (because god put therem here for us? lol) anyway im not one to preach so ill stop lol,

If you are morally against the killing of animals for food that is fine and a personal decision you choose to make but don't attempt to say "advancement in science and knowledge" and use that as an excuse to justify your personal convictions. This herbivore vs omnivore discussion/debate has been had more times than I can remember and I really don't want to rehash it again.

[JeremyT]

JudoJosh, I will check out that website! Seems like a really good one. I think for me I don't have any sort of moral barrier to killing and eating animals, I just feel sick when things such as abuse or really bad mistreatment happen. I think for me the meat issue is more of a health thing then anything else. I read a wholeeee bunch of things, and watched some documentaries and some of the data regarding meat eating and cancer is so significant. I think dairy plays a big part though, and I haven't had any in at least a few years now. I guess I'm still trying to find justification that I can be healthy, eat meat, and not die of cancer.

[freefall365]

Judo -- props for sharing that link man! Found 2 farms very close to me that raise organic and grass fed cows, pigs, etc. Awesome!

[HondaV65]

Hey guys,

As of late I have come across new information regarding meat/dairy intake and health, as well as info on the ****ty meat industry in the US and Canada and the low low quality of meat that is being produced ...

And it's all propaganda written by neofeminists and BETA MALES who want you to be as physically weak and pathetic as they are.

Winn Dixie meat section - THATS where I dine - and the redder the meat - the mo's I like it.

American Farmers are the best in the entire world - best in the history of the world - and they FEED the world.

I was raised on a farm and taught agribusiness and poultry science. My dad is a cattle rancher. That organic ****? You gotta be kidding me. That is the most inefficient way to grow food imaginable. There's around 7 Billion on this damn planet and any bleeding heart liberal should KNOW that we can't feed all them using organic methods.

[JudoJosh]

JudoJosh, I will check out that website! Seems like a really good one. I think for me I don't have any sort of moral barrier to killing and eating animals, I just feel sick when things such as abuse or really bad mistreatment happen. I think for me the meat issue is more of a health thing then anything else. I read a wholeeee bunch of things, and watched some documentaries and some of the data regarding meat eating and cancer is so significant. I think dairy plays a big part though, and I haven't had any in at least a few years now. I guess I'm still trying to find justification that I can be healthy, eat meat, and not die of cancer.

Where did you see a link from meat and cancer?

Judo -- props for sharing that link man! Found 2 farms very close to me that raise organic and grass fed cows, pigs, etc. Awesome!

Yes the site is great!! I try and spread it around every chance I get. Please share with other people you know.. even if you or they aren't into the whole organic thing it is still always a great thing to buy your food locally.

[JudoJosh]

And it's all propaganda written by neofeminists and BETA MALES who want you to be as physically weak and pathetic as they are.

Winn Dixie meat section - THATS where I dine - and the redder the meat - the mo's I like it.

American Farmers are the best in the entire world - best in the history of the world - and they FEED the world.

I was raised on a farm and taught agribusiness and poultry science. My dad is a cattle rancher. That organic ****? You gotta be kidding me. That is the most inefficient way to grow food imaginable. There's around 7 Billion on this damn planet and any bleeding heart liberal should KNOW that we can't feed all them using organic methods.

Why are other people outside of our community or country our responsibility? Yes it is cheaper and easier to raise cattle with genetically modified grains and hormones, but is cheaper always better? You know the saying, "you get what you pay for" is said for a reason. But that is netiher here nor there carry on..

[mattrag]

Mass production of animals is horrible. Free range animals always are best to buy and eat. Hell it's worth it.

Anyhow back to the non meat protein diet. Mike Mahler has also been a vegan for quite some time now and has a pretty damn good hormonal panel. Go to his site. Basically his full name then dot com and you can read some of his articles on his diet and how he does vegan.

[HondaV65]

Why are other people outside of our community or country our responsibility?

Why indeed? Preaching to the choir there brother. However - the reality is ... both parties that control US Government are very much PRO helping out the rest of the world whether it be with our money, our food, or our blood.

Humans were born to eat meat though - it's in our genome and it's been there since the first Homo Sapiens was born. Those first Homo Sapiens were bred by evolution to hunt and eat meat. Farming practices didn't come into play until much later and there weren't enough fruits and veggies in the winter time for them to subsist off.

No - raising animals for food isn't pretty ... but that's the price we pay these days so that we each don't have to go out and hunt down our food. I live in Louisiana and I often go out hunting for feral hogs - there are millions of them here. When I kill one, I have to gut it and dress it in the field. Then I drag it back to my truck by hand and that is usually the hardest part. Then it's on to the house to hang up the carcass on the back porch and skin it and butcher it. Then - just to make this wild hog palatable - I have to soak the mean in an ice cooler with ice and lemon in it for two days.

After all that - I have some relatively eatable pork, that's prolly a bit tough ... but it's "Free" I suppose.

So yeah - I'll take a Winn Dixie Rib Eyes over that in a heartbeat, thick - juicy - and I surely thank the farmer who did all the work for me on that!

[JeremyT]

Where did you see a link from meat and cancer?

Some of the good information was from a documentary called 'Forks over Knives'. It heavily takes data from books such as 'The China Study' which was a book about cancer rates in china. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, study on humans ever undertaken. And it found that one of the direct links to cancer was the consumption of dairy and meat. For example in some areas in China, between different counties there was something like a 100 fold difference in the rates of some specific cancers. In the US between different areas, the same distance apart, the difference might only be 2-3 fold. They narrowed it down to differences in diets.

They quoted things, and although I don't have a direct reference, but things like prostate cancer. In Japan in like 1970 something, there were only 18 autopsy proven prostate cancer deaths. In the US at the time there was like 30,000. The statistical relationship between the consumption of dairy and prostate cancer, is as strong as smoking cigarettes and lung cancer. They also quoted a study that had been done and re-checked by numerous research about the consumption of casien protein and how it directly lead to the growth of cancer tumors. If you took that protein out of the diet then the cancer tumors would go down. Just a lot of really interesting data came out of the stuff.

I do believe that humans were meant to be omnivores, but I think for me, with people in my family dying of both cancer, and strokes, it really makes you want to question the dominant paradigm. Now whether these issues are caused more by like 'fast food' and all the ****ty meat and other crap that we eat these days, that of course is up for debate. I have heard for diabetes its not the amount of sugar that we are intaking specifically that is causing all these new cases, but the amount of refined sugars, coupled with high fat contents of our diet. So our body cannot properly digest the sugar and the fat at the same time so the sugar almost gets concentrated in our blood before the insulin is released, in massive amounts. these processes over and over cause the onset of type 2 diabetes.

So, many things to think about. I don't want to be thin forever, but I don't want to die of cancer trying to be big.

[redrobe]

Humans have evolved to a stage where we do not need to eat meat to survive. We've created enough alternative protein sources to thrive on. I chose not to eat meat, and if you chose to eat meat that's your decision, but at least admit that you're making a choice.

Citing what the caveman did is not giving much credit to evolution. Humans are also designed to overeat and store fat in case they have to survive a period without food. Every obese guy at McDonald's could say, "I need to eat these cheeseburgers everyday, I'm just designed this way."

To the OP, yes you can build muscle and be lean on a veggie or vegan diet. Mike Mahler is the first guy that comes to mind. Check out some of his articles on nutrition.

[JudoJosh]

Why indeed? Preaching to the choir there brother. However - the reality is ... both parties that control US Government are very much PRO helping out the rest of the world whether it be with our money, our food, or our blood.

Again completely irrelevant. How does the government want to feed the world have any impact what so ever on the food you choose to buy for you and your family? Just because the grain industry has been subsidized by the government doesnt mean you have to eat it. Just because cows are now fed this feed comprised of genetically modified food that the government help push doesnt mean you have to buy it. How do they effect your decision on what you buy?

No - raising animals for food isn't pretty ... but that's the price we pay these days so that we each don't have to go out and hunt down our food. I live in Louisiana and I often go out hunting for feral hogs - there are millions of them here. When I kill one, I have to gut it and dress it in the field. Then I drag it back to my truck by hand and that is usually the hardest part. Then it's on to the house to hang up the carcass on the back porch and skin it and butcher it. Then - just to make this wild hog palatable - I have to soak the mean in an ice cooler with ice and lemon in it for two days.

After all that - I have some relatively eatable pork, that's prolly a bit tough ... but it's "Free" I suppose.

So yeah - I'll take a Winn Dixie Rib Eyes over that in a heartbeat, thick - juicy - and I surely thank the farmer who did all the work for me on that!

Or you can pay a farmer or butcher to do it for you. Why do you paint the picture of our only two options are to go out ourselves and hunt or buy conventional beef? Where is the third option that is buying from a local farmer who allows their cattle to graze and feed from the grass as nature intended?

Some of the good information was from a documentary called 'Forks over Knives'. It heavily takes data from books such as 'The China Study' which was a book about cancer rates in china. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, study on humans ever undertaken. And it found that one of the direct links to cancer was the consumption of dairy and meat. For example in some areas in China, between different counties there was something like a 100 fold difference in the rates of some specific cancers. In the US between different areas, the same distance apart, the difference might only be 2-3 fold. They narrowed it down to differences in diets.

They quoted things, and although I don't have a direct reference, but things like prostate cancer. In Japan in like 1970 something, there were only 18 autopsy proven prostate cancer deaths. In the US at the time there was like 30,000. The statistical relationship between the consumption of dairy and prostate cancer, is as strong as smoking cigarettes and lung cancer. They also quoted a study that had been done and re-checked by numerous research about the consumption of casien protein and how it directly lead to the growth of cancer tumors. If you took that protein out of the diet then the cancer tumors would go down. Just a lot of really interesting data came out of the stuff.

While I am not familiar with that documentary I do know the "study" you are referring to.

There were several flaws in Campbell’s analytical methods. He ignored any study that demonstrated anything counter to his claims and cherry-picked references to support his claims (many of which don't even support the claims he tries to make)

Basically he tried to correlate cancer with cholesterol, associate cholesterol with animal protein, and attempt to lead the reader into inferring animal protein associates with cancer. He never once cites a direct correlation between cancer and animal protein consumption. Instead what he did was add in a third variable (cholesterol) into the mix. Now while plasma cholesterol correlates positively with animal protein consumption and negatively with plant protein consumption, it isn't to the extent Cambell leads you to believe. When you actually track down the direct correlation between animal protein and cancer you discover there is no statistically significant positive trend to be found.

Animal protein intake has the following correlations with cancers:
Lymphoma: -18
Penis cancer: -16
Rectal cancer: -12
Bladder cancer: -9
Colorectal cancer: -8
Leukemia: -5
Nasopharyngeal: -4
Cervix cancer: -4
Colon cancer: -3
Liver cancer: -3
Oesophageal cancer: +2
Brain cancer: +5
Breast cancer: +12

Now look at the cancer correlations with “plant protein intake”:
Brain cancer: -15
Liver cancer: -14
Penis cancer: -4
Lymphoma: -4
Bladder cancer: -3
Breast cancer: +1
Stomach cancer: +10
Rectal cancer: +12
Cervix cancer: +12
Colon cancer: +13
Leukemia: +15
Oesophageal cancer +18
Colorectal cancer: +19

As you can see with animal protein consumption most of the correlations are negative and none of them reach a statistical significance. However what you do see is a positive correlation with plant protein and cancers. In fact, when we look solely at the variable “death from all cancers,” the association with plant protein is +12. With animal protein, it’s only +3. Hardly evidence against animal protein.

In the "China Study" Cambell repeatedly distorts facts and chooses to leave relatively important information out of it. He tries to show a link between animal protein and cardiovascular disease (correlation of +1 for animal protein and -11 for fish protein), yet fails to bring up wheat flour has a correlation of +67 with heart attacks and coronary heart disease, and plant protein correlates at +25 with these conditions. He leaves out the correlations wheat has to cervix cancer (+46), with hypertensive heart disease (+54), with stroke (+47), with diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs (+41), and the +67 with myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease. Why does Campbell point out the relationship between cholesterol and colorectal cancer (+33) but does not mention the much higher relationship between sea vegetables and colorectal cancer (+76)?? It is pretty obvious he is attempt to create misleading correlations to further push a result he has already determined to be there before any of the research was actually done. Or in other words he is obviously pushing his own agenda with the study.

When you actually look at the evidence it takes a HUGE leap in logic to link animal products with disease by way of blood cholesterol when the animal products themselves don’t correlate with those diseases. “The China Study” is nothing more than a collection of carefully chosen data and assembled in a way to sell you the authors preconceived reality.

[JeremyT]

Wow. I have read some critical responses regarding the China Study, but that one was really compelling. I think where I'm at right now is that I want to get my protein from much of the same sources as you. Good quality beef, eggs (although I generally stick with egg whites) and wild caught fish. And then I will of course stick with my old stand bys seasonal fruit and veg, with good carbs and no wheat. Hopefully that will be good enough to help me put some weight!

[schwellington]

to the guy who eats 240 grams of whey- your dumb.

THe amino acid profile found in beef is AMAZING- not only that it has vitamins and minerals we need.

whey is great- but uhm 240 grams is entirely overkill


soy protein is dirty dirty dirty too.

Eat meat bich grow some nutz

[JudoJosh]

Wow. I have read some critical responses regarding the China Study, but that one was really compelling. I think where I'm at right now is that I want to get my protein from much of the same sources as you. Good quality beef, eggs (although I generally stick with egg whites) and wild caught fish. And then I will of course stick with my old stand bys seasonal fruit and veg, with good carbs and no wheat. Hopefully that will be good enough to help me put some weight!

Don't avoid the yolks in the eggs especially if your trying to gain weight.

[community]

Health/Fitness
- The China Study by T. Colin Campbell (a scientific but easy read, this book will blow your mind.It is based on a 27 year comparative study of diet between people in East Asia and North America. This is considered to be the most comprehensive study of human nutrition ever conducted.)
- Thrive Fitness by Brendan Brazier (eating and exercise plan by Brendan Brazier, professional Iron Man/triathlete/marathon runner and inventor of Vega vegan supplements)
- Vegan Body Building and Fitness by Robert Cheeke (how to gain mass by bodybuilding champion)

Philosophy
- Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer (a recent but fun read with lots of research/investigation. Basically a new father researches factory farming because he wants to know how to best feed and raise his son)
- Animal Liberation by Peter Singer (the cornerstone book of the animal rights movement, very scientific, very philosophical, written by someone who is arguably the world's leading bioethicist. A deatiled account of animals' ability to feel pain and have consciousness, as well as factory farming methods...heavy stuff)

Other
- The Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman (a millionaire rancher gets a malignant spinal tumor, goes vegan, heals himself without medicine and reexamines our culture's treatment of animals...now he travels around speaking against factory farming and meat-eating)
- Free The Animals by Ingrid Newkirk (PETA's president writes an anonymous account of the formation of the Animal Liberation front in America, very interesting)
- Meat is for Pussies by John Joseph (an ultra-macho take on veganism by the singer of the Cro-mags. Not as informative as the other books on here, but still hilarious and fun to read. You will definitely laugh, plus he gives workout and eating tips.)

Good Websites

- earthlings.com (most comprehensive documentary about the way people treat animals, watch it for free on this site or on youtube. The resolution quality isn't so good online, but I have a copy on dvd if you want to borrow it)
- pcrm.org (physicians committee for responsible medicine--vegan doctors healing people without medicine or animal testing)
- vegcooking.com (vegan recipes)
- .veganbodybuilding.com (awesome resource and community for people who want to know how to be fit or build muscle on a vegan diet)
- peta.org (watch the Meet Your Meat video if nothing else, or just see what kind of campaigns they've got going on. some are funny/whacky, but a lot of it is legit, I promise!)
- mercyforanimals.org (kind of like PETA's little brother, but a totally different organization that is putting out some great videos and information)