P
plumbaman
Guest
Simple question, splenda or trivia
same thing. Truvia=Stevia.WHat bout stevia?
Well people stay away from regular soda because they think the sugar will cause an insulin spike and the sugar will be stored as fat...I was just pointing out that the same is true for most artificial sweeteners.A lot of foods elicit an insulin response. Even protein powder will elicit an unsulin response. What difference does the insulin response make?
Any articles or evidence on that?Gotcha. The insulin response to artificial sweetener is minimal at best (probably non-existent). But in order for anything to be stored as fat, it has to contain calories. An insulin response cannot trigger storage if there is nothing to store. Insulin is really only a very small piece of the fat storage equation as well. Really not worth concerning yourself over.
Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.A diet based on maintaining insulin control is FAR from irrelevant
That's interesting. Could you tell something more about it? (legit question)..But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.
This goes against everything I have ever heard about being in a caloried controlled deficit and dieting. I have always heard levels of stable low insulin is the best environment for fat loss.Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.
On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.
That's interesting. Could you tell something more about it? (legit question)
Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.This goes against everything I have ever heard about being in a caloried controlled deficit and dieting. I have always heard levels of stable low insulin is the best environment for fat loss.
The difference is that battery acid is very toxic even in small dosages. There arent any legit studies (to my knowledge) showing any negatives to artificial sweeteners. Every study I have read has dosages given to rats that would be equivalent to eating a 5 gallon bucket of aspartame every day. Even water is toxic at a certain level. IMOP, art sweeteners are a great alternative to sugar when counting calories. Straight sugar is such a waste of calories when leaning out......I cant bring myself to use it while dieting. Not to say there is anything wrong with dieting on straight sugar.....its just not my preference.minus truvia, I would just rather stay away from most artifical sweeteners regardless of their little effects on insulin or damage on the body (aspartame). It would be like someone putting a little battery acid in my drink and saying ...its in such small amounts you wont taste it...it wont do anything to you. Would I drink it? No. haha just my personal preference. These sweeteners really haven't been out long enough to get really good studies on.
Except that insulin also inhibits fat oxidation. One reason LeanGains program is so effective is by maximizing the time the body is spent in fat oxidation and then eating the same amount of daily calories that we are aiming for in what Markus coined his anabolic feeding window.Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.
Why? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.
All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.
Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.Except that insulin also inhibits fat oxidation. One reason LeanGains program is so effective is by maximizing the time the body is spent in fat oxidation and then eating the same amount of daily calories that we are aiming for in what Markus coined his anabolic feeding window.
Certainly and I agree that there is much more to dieting then focusing on insulin and its role in the body, however, it does have an effect on fat oxidation which has been proven by studies and therefore cannot be considered as completely irrelevant. I don't think you need your diet to revolve around it though, which is what I think you're also saying. There are many factors that go into creating a more successful diet especially for contest prep. It isn't a single variable that defines all of your success but a combination of them all.Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.
Really, inulin is much better, and you can cook with itXylitol or stevia. Xylitol is said to actually have protective qualities on your teeth, but you can't bake cookies with it which makes me very ..very sad.
While the potential for improved intestinal bacteria sounds like a benefit, I'm gassy enough as it is. One cauliflower floret and I'm melting the paint on my walls.Really, inulin is much better, and you can cook with it
Agreed. ACtually, I think insulin control is much more important whilst bulking. When our bodies are walking that line between maintenance and overage, I think a steady control over insulin might keep the fire burning in our favor. While in a calorie deficit, I think its such a minor issue that its not even worth looking at. From my understanding of the role of insulin, personal experience and the experience of other elite level competitors, food selection and insulin control is just not worth spending the time over-analyzing. I get the same results dieting on oatmeal vs. low fat ice cream. The macros are the same.....I perform and look the same.Certainly and I agree that there is much more to dieting then focusing on insulin and its role in the body, however, it does have an effect on fat oxidation which has been proven by studies and therefore cannot be considered as completely irrelevant. I don't think you need your diet to revolve around it though, which is what I think you're also saying. There are many factors that go into creating a more successful diet especially for contest prep. It isn't a single variable that defines all of your success but a combination of them all.
Yep. Hitting your optimal macros in the caloric range is definitely the most important of all factors. I tried a much looser food selection diet while still hitting my same macros and without exceeding my predetermined caloric range and found the results to be on par, which really helps make dieting easier.Agreed. ACtually, I think insulin control is much more important whilst bulking. When our bodies are walking that line between maintenance and overage, I think a steady control over insulin might keep the fire burning in our favor. While in a calorie deficit, I think its such a minor issue that its not even worth looking at. From my understanding of the role of insulin, personal experience and the experience of other elite level competitors, food selection and insulin control is just not worth spending the time over-analyzing. I get the same results dieting on oatmeal vs. low fat ice cream. The macros are the same.....I perform and look the same.
Very interesting how we all work differently.Yep. Hitting your optimal macros in the caloric range is definitely the most important of all factors. I tried a much looser food selection diet while still hitting my same macros and without exceeding my predetermined caloric range and found the results to be on par, which really helps make dieting easier.
The level of importance is debatable but to brush it off as "irrelevant" is down playing it quite a bitInsulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.
On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.
The GI index is flawed. Not all low GI foods will illicit a low insulin response. In fact recent research has shown us the opposite. The GI index is based on the rate of carb absorption in the blood and attempts to correlate that to an insulin response. Even without that.. you dont think by carefully calculating and measuring every macronutrient of every meal it wont control insulin levels? Furthermore you have to consider that professional bodybuilders only one end of a spectrum of exercise and what they do doesnt necessarily apply to everyone else.Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.
Yes insulin is a VERY anabolic hormone BUT it also functions as a storage hormone too. Insulin is not the only anabolic hormone involved in muscle mass development. IGF-1 (Insulin-like growth factor-1) has a more prolonged effect in muscle protein synthesisWhy? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.
Yes overall weight boils down to calories in vs calories out but body composition requires a lot more attention.All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.
Well, the fact that they are two different individuals and all they are eating is carbs......your example leads me to say no. But lets take your example and bring it into reality. Take your average bodybuilder at 180 lbs and put him in a 500kcal deficit per day. 200g protein/200g carb/ 55g fat. Typical diet numbers. Feed him nothing but sweet potato for his carb source for 3 weeks and then switch him to WMS for the next three weeks. For all practical purposes, it will make no difference in his fat loss. I will grant you that the wms does not contain the micro-nutrients and phyto nutrients that the potato has so that is why I would never base a diet on ONE carb source.If you take a individual and feed them 2000 calories worth of strictly WMS and than another individual and feed them 2000 calories of pure WPI.. are you saying at the end of the week both would have the same body composition?
For the general public.....I agree whole heartedly that rapidly rising and falling insulin is an issue that leads to health problems. But this is a bodybuilding forum. I never said that someone "adapts to high levels of insulin". I was trying to say that a lean bodybuilder normally has very high insulin sensitivity. Insulin sensitivity is something that can be developed as you diet and train. A bodybuilder who is sitting at 4-5% bodyfat and is extremely active and healthy has very high insulin sensitivity meaning that his body requires a very small amount of insulin to process carbohydrates. It is almost impossible to make insulin spike to any significant degree eating a normal sized dieting bodybuilder meal. Most guys do not diet on more than 50-60g of carbs per meal. Its simply not enough food to elicit a huge insulin response. Even doubling that is not really an issue. Regardless of food choice. Keep in mind I am not advocating eating cotton candy as your only carb source.....I recommend a diet based in good, quality foods. But making a huge issue of GI of carbs is just not worth the time and effort for a competitive bodybuilder. Now if we are talking about the general public regularly eating out at McD's, binging on chips and soda.....then YES I AGREE! People like should begin focusing on proper diet to get insulin swings under control. That is a great place to start for general health and wellness. I also believe insulin control becomes more important as we hover near or above maintenance calories as we "bulk" or lean bulk.An out of control insulin levels will lead to a myriad of health problems from raising your triglycerides, decrease HDL, cause your blood to be more prone to clots, walls of your arteries to thicken, decreased blood flow to the heart, inflammation, tells your kidneys to hold on to salt which leads to fluid retention, constriction of artery walls, high blood pressure, insulin resistance etc.. To look at the importance of maintaining stable insulin levels as only a fat loss goal is just naive.
Finally! Someone else gets it.Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.
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