fake sweetners

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Insulin control is important if you eat by "feel" because insulin secretion has a lot to do with satiety. Most bodybuilders count their calories and macros and in that case, insulin secretion is a very minor issue.

    On a bulk.....I might tend to agree with you more. But when you are in a calorie-controlled deficit, insulin is a very small player.
    The level of importance is debatable but to brush it off as "irrelevant" is down playing it quite a bit

    If you take a individual and feed them 2000 calories worth of strictly WMS and than another individual and feed them 2000 calories of pure WPI.. are you saying at the end of the week both would have the same body composition?

    Extreme? Yes but it illustrates a point..

    An out of control insulin levels will lead to a myriad of health problems from raising your triglycerides, decrease HDL, cause your blood to be more prone to clots, walls of your arteries to thicken, decreased blood flow to the heart, inflammation, tells your kidneys to hold on to salt which leads to fluid retention, constriction of artery walls, high blood pressure, insulin resistance etc.. To look at the importance of maintaining stable insulin levels as only a fat loss goal is just naive.

    Now this isnt meant to attack insulin at all as it is a very important hormone but constantly bombarding yourself with insulin leads to some very serious health problems. Same goes the other way as if you were able to get rid of all the insulin in your blood than you would loose its ability to store energy in the muscle. It is about a balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Well, I hate to be bro-science buster, but it just aint true. When I first began bodybuilding I ate very consciously considering GI of the carb sources. I lost fat and had decent success. Following my first competitive season I started to associate with some guys that put the emphasis on food quantity and macro ratios......and COUNTING everything to the gram. And although some importance was placed on the micronutritional side of the equation, food source was the lesser issue for these guys. Glycemic index was not even on the radar and I watched the conditioning of these guys while they dieted on Pop tarts, protein cakes, frozen yogurt, etc. And they got RIDICULOUSLY shredded. Like striations so deeply cut in their ass, you can see them through their shorts. No joke. So....i decided to try paying closer attention to the details of weighing, tracking and measuring food and less attention to food source. I regularly diet on all kinds of "taboo, insulin-spiking" foods now and I found it doesnt make a lick of difference.
    The GI index is flawed. Not all low GI foods will illicit a low insulin response. In fact recent research has shown us the opposite. The GI index is based on the rate of carb absorption in the blood and attempts to correlate that to an insulin response. Even without that.. you dont think by carefully calculating and measuring every macronutrient of every meal it wont control insulin levels? Furthermore you have to consider that professional bodybuilders only one end of a spectrum of exercise and what they do doesnt necessarily apply to everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Why? First off.....insulin is a highly anabolic hormone. And the more time we can spend with insulin levels high while still losing weight, the better. Yes, i know this is absolutely contrary to what most people believe about dieting. But think about the fact that many guys purposefully TRY to spike insulin post workout. Why? Insulin is anabolic. The thing is that if I eat a mound of peeled white potatoes now (very high GI) my insulin spikes faster and further than if I had a bowl of oatmeal. But the flip side to the white potato is that the insulin comes down much faster and im back to a very low level before the oats would reach that baseline. So the spike of the low GI oatmeal is lesser but its also longer and more linear.
    Yes insulin is a VERY anabolic hormone BUT it also functions as a storage hormone too. Insulin is not the only anabolic hormone involved in muscle mass development. IGF-1 (Insulin-like growth factor-1) has a more prolonged effect in muscle protein synthesis


    Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    All that to say it "all comes out in the wash". Whether I allow insulin to spike and fall or allow it to remain more steady throughout the day, im still burning the same amount of fat. How much fat you burn depends on the difference between your calorie intake and calories burned. Thats it. Very simple. To further add to the arguement, as you lean out your body adapts and will moderate its blood sugar levels quite well. So, carb choice is even less of a factor as your insulin sensitivity improves. You take a bodybuilder at stage-ready lean-ness and blood sugar levels do not spike and fall to any great degree. They are pretty steady throughout the day regardless of food choice.
    Yes overall weight boils down to calories in vs calories out but body composition requires a lot more attention.

    And to your notion that the body will "adapt" to its constant excess level of insulin is absurd! This leads to insulin resistant. What happens is your body starts to resist insulin's effects (the shuttling of nutrients) and this leads to your body in turn releasing even more insulin and as I pointed out earlier.. excess levels of insulin circulating the blood leads to VERY VERY bad things. What your goal should be is to work towards to a high amount of insulin sensitivity. Your insulin sensitivity will dictate your muscle:fat ratio example: a typical individual might bulk and gain at a 1:2 ratio. If said individual were able to increase their insulin sensitivity then this ratio could change to a 1:1 or even a 2:1 ratio of muscle:fat.

    Again this isnt against the idea of spiking your insulin levels but against the downplaying of its importance. Some individuals, especially bodybuilders will benefit from an insulin surge
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates


  2. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    If you take a individual and feed them 2000 calories worth of strictly WMS and than another individual and feed them 2000 calories of pure WPI.. are you saying at the end of the week both would have the same body composition?
    Well, the fact that they are two different individuals and all they are eating is carbs......your example leads me to say no. But lets take your example and bring it into reality. Take your average bodybuilder at 180 lbs and put him in a 500kcal deficit per day. 200g protein/200g carb/ 55g fat. Typical diet numbers. Feed him nothing but sweet potato for his carb source for 3 weeks and then switch him to WMS for the next three weeks. For all practical purposes, it will make no difference in his fat loss. I will grant you that the wms does not contain the micro-nutrients and phyto nutrients that the potato has so that is why I would never base a diet on ONE carb source.
    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    An out of control insulin levels will lead to a myriad of health problems from raising your triglycerides, decrease HDL, cause your blood to be more prone to clots, walls of your arteries to thicken, decreased blood flow to the heart, inflammation, tells your kidneys to hold on to salt which leads to fluid retention, constriction of artery walls, high blood pressure, insulin resistance etc.. To look at the importance of maintaining stable insulin levels as only a fat loss goal is just naive.
    For the general public.....I agree whole heartedly that rapidly rising and falling insulin is an issue that leads to health problems. But this is a bodybuilding forum. I never said that someone "adapts to high levels of insulin". I was trying to say that a lean bodybuilder normally has very high insulin sensitivity. Insulin sensitivity is something that can be developed as you diet and train. A bodybuilder who is sitting at 4-5% bodyfat and is extremely active and healthy has very high insulin sensitivity meaning that his body requires a very small amount of insulin to process carbohydrates. It is almost impossible to make insulin spike to any significant degree eating a normal sized dieting bodybuilder meal. Most guys do not diet on more than 50-60g of carbs per meal. Its simply not enough food to elicit a huge insulin response. Even doubling that is not really an issue. Regardless of food choice. Keep in mind I am not advocating eating cotton candy as your only carb source.....I recommend a diet based in good, quality foods. But making a huge issue of GI of carbs is just not worth the time and effort for a competitive bodybuilder. Now if we are talking about the general public regularly eating out at McD's, binging on chips and soda.....then YES I AGREE! People like should begin focusing on proper diet to get insulin swings under control. That is a great place to start for general health and wellness. I also believe insulin control becomes more important as we hover near or above maintenance calories as we "bulk" or lean bulk.

    I am not a "if it fits your macros" extremist. I dont sit around eating nothing but junk food all day and I understand very clearly the role insulin plays in processing carbs and storage of fats/building and repair of muscle. However, I have a low tolerance for general bro-science and bodybuilding dogma that says we need to restrict ourselves to certain foods for maximum results. Its just total BS. I eat a wide variety of foods from brocolli and chicken to popcorn and ice cream. And I can achieve striated glutes and feathered quads while doing so.
    Sean Campbell
    Pro Natural Bodybuilder
    NRC Sponsored Athlete - Cabergolean.com
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by AustrianOakJr View Post
    Im going to try and say this without coming off like a jerk. Because thats not my intention. Go back and read my post. I explained why a "spike" in insulin is irrelevant in a caloric deficit. Insulin is only one small piece of the incredibly complicated puzzle. Everyone puts such an emphasis on insulin. And they put the emphasis on only one part of insulin's role in bodily function.
    Finally! Someone else gets it.

    Managing one's diet based on insulin levels is a piss poor approach and here is why. Firstly, insulin's action on the body is not a binary effect, meaning it is not a simple on or off. It is very dependent on actual levels. So the question I ask to all the insulin management proponents is, 'how do you monitor you insulin levels?' (here's a tip, it is rhetorical). Insulin output is in response to energy balance between food intake and energy expenditure. These are things that you can measure or monitor so adjust one while holding the other constant till you find a combination that meets your bodyweight management goals.

    Insulin's behaviour and effects make for a good discussion on general health and the diabetes epidemic but is not something to design a non-anabolic assisted diet around.

    As far as the original topic goes, zero calorie sweeteners cannot illicit any significant insulin response because they contain zero calories. One of the effects of insulin is to pull glucose out of the blood stream. If these zero calorie sodas did indeed produce a significant insulin response, there would have been an epidemic of people becoming hypoglycemic. Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

  4. as a lean individual those carb meals are ok due to rises and falls in leptin. leptin is a key regulator in thermogensis and satiety.

    problem with heavier individuals theres some sort of resistance.

    leaner individuals have lower circulating levels of leptin and when they have the carb meals it ignites the furnace so to say which is why when some people get leaner they switch from low carb to moderate carbs and they see improvement.

    also in terms of insulin

    300 carb is 300 carb low glycemic or high glycemic your going to release the same amount of insulin each way. just in different times.

    and hes right insulin in a state where no calories are consumed wont do much harm at all. may even promote satiety to a degree,
  

  
 

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