if you are still eating grains, read this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I think most people often forget that there can be a sub-clinical level of allergy. Nothing that causes anything overtly noticeable, but small things such as sinusitis or chronic allergies. Above all else, the main reason I kicked gluten was that it removed, not alleviated or lessened, but completely eliminated my allergies. I only have one good nostril as is and need all the help I can get when it comes to my breathing.
    Indeed. It is only so long before someone quotes "only X% of people suffer from celiac disease" as it that is conclusive.

    Anyone who does a lot of food sensitivity testing knows that a lot of sensitivities come and go based on how often you eat them amongst other things. It isn't as simple as a "Celiac? Yes or no."

    I am not a celiac. Technically I have not been diagnosed as having any kind of gluten sensitivity. If anything, tests have shown that I am fine to eat them so I would be one of the huge majority of people who are ok to eat gluten, as far as doctors are concerned.

    On the other hand it is absolutely not the case if I want ideal health. I reintroduced it into my diet in various forms to see how I reacted and have never been able to do it without a reaction. I can't even eat a bowl of conventionally prepared (not certified gluten free) oats.
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    So red/sweet potatoes, fruits, veggies, quinoa are the most nutrient dense source of carbs right? rice is pretty void of nutrients right? What about sprouted grain breads. Im trying to learn which foods give me the most bang for my buck so to speak. I learned a lot, thanks guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    What could have been an interesting debate has turned into more of an e-argument than anything.

    I was in a lecture on gluten sensitivities and some of the studies shown were absolutely incredible. There were examples of severe, 'non-related' diseases being improved on following a gluten free diet, the most memorable one for me was brain lesions.



    It is not a black or white question. I have had many clients who say they have no problems digesting gluten but feel much better when they do not eat it and substitute it with gluten free options.
    I completely agree with you, but just to clarify, gluten has not been found to cause brain lesions in normal individuals. It can cause it in celiac disease, but since it is an autoimmune disease, one has to be careful drawing too many conclusions: http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajnr.A1826v1
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    WRT to evolution of the human GI, you have to remember that the commercial grains of today are highly genetically engineered and its potential effects on the GI are unknown. Needless to say, it is probably is our best interest to at least limit the amount that we consume of these crops



    I think most people often forget that there can be a sub-clinical level of allergy. Nothing that causes anything overtly noticeable, but small things such as sinusitis or chronic allergies. Above all else, the main reason I kicked gluten was that it removed, not alleviated or lessened, but completely eliminated my allergies. I only have one good nostril as is and need all the help I can get when it comes to my breathing.
    I also completely agree with you. Everything in moderation. I only spoke up because others were calling it poison, which for some it is, but not for all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I completely agree with you, but just to clarify, gluten has not been found to cause brain lesions in normal individuals. It can cause it in celiac disease, but since it is an autoimmune disease, one has to be careful drawing too many conclusions: http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajnr.A1826v1
    Completely correct to clarify. While science continually evolves and I wouldn't write any conclusion off from being discovered in the future I was not trying to imply hidden gluten sensitivity would cause the problem, only that following a gluten free diet improved the problem in gluten sensitive individuals.
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    Comically i'm moving towards being more gluten free, but only because i'm increasing my quinoa intake for the purpose of the ecdysterone in it. Even ordered some quinoa flour to do breads/buns/etc with. Maybe try cookies too. I figure may as well, if one cup of quinoa has something like 25mg ecdy in it I can eat 2-3 cups of it as just regular cooked quinoa, and get a bit more from baked goods as well.
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    I started eating grain again while on vacation last week and I can feel a big difference in sinus swelling and mental clarity. Not to mention the constant dull headache that has returned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Any statement that uses evolution as a part of its proof is inherently flawed. Evolution does not optimize the individual. The only accurate and logically consistent statement you can use evolution for is that eating the way we evolved to eat will maximize fertility. Thats all. Evolution tunes us for survival of the species, not for survival or optimal performance of the individual. If anything, larger individuals (such as bodybuilders) can be viewed as counter species survival as they consume far more resources than a normal individual, which limits the resources available to the group. Same with claims of eating that way making for a longer life as old members of the tribe don't perform to the same level and require more protection. So if anything evolution would tune you to having a productive ages 14-45 or so, and limit your chances of living past that.
    This isnt in reference to my post is it? My post was specifically in regards to your statement saying we have been eating grains for 10,000 years and the studies and statements I posted are based of anthropology evidence and not evolution. This isn't to say evolution isnt an argument used by the paleo crowd but it isn't the only or main one.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Every time a person starts a cult thread on their favorite methodology of something saying that anything else is garbage the rest of the cult members join in too.
    I really hope this isnt directed at me but I cant think of who else this is towards. Only me and rodja have come in to back the paleo diet methodology and if you bothered to read my posted I agreed with the cultish nature of the paleo crowd and even said I hated it so please dont refer to me as a "cult member". Lets try and keep the discussion a little more civil then thats and not bring it to the level of personal attacks because if thats where you intend on bringing it then I am done here

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Nope sure don't. The overconsumption of food in general, but particularly fats + sugars was what did it.

    So you feel good eating that way. Big whoop. 70+% of the population feels good eating grains. The slavish addition to the cult line with no scientific backing showing it affects more than a small proportion of the population is ridiculous. So great, you fall into the maybe 20% of the population that is gluten allergic to some extent. Its wonderful that you figured that out and that its helped you, it doesn't make the 70+% of people without gluten intolerance or allergies stupid for continuing to eat grains.

    Like i've said before, it is worth it for people to take a month off of dairy, off of gluten and see how they feel and how their performance and body comp changes (or doesn't). But if there isn't a significant change and you enjoy grains, theres no reason to avoid them. They are a caloric source, and with eating enough vegetables and taking vitamins the fact that they have minimal levels of additional micronutrients is meaningless as you already have your needs covered. Anyone who works out or competes athletically has a higher than normal caloric need, and grains are a convenient way to reach the caloric goals.
    You know what cracks me up about your postings Easy? The fact that anytime someone post something you disagree with you alweays demand peer reviewed studies that were done to specific standards that you hold and demand that there be a plethora of them in order to even be considered, yet you go around and post these random statements, statistics and "facts" without any evidence whatsoever to back them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    Very true. This is a point that eludes even many (is amateur a good descriptor?) scientists.

    What's important to understand is that we live in a harsh environment; this has been true for millions of years, and it is still true today (processed foods, heavily contaminated water, smog- and carcinogen-packed atmosphere, etc). Our bodies, thusly, can be thought of much like marines - they make do. That you eat your greens every day and are generally healthy doesn't mean you're operating at optimal conditions. And I'm in agreement with everything else you said.

    With that said, I think there is substantial evidence to support many of the habits that paleo diets put forth. Their focus on meats over veggies is a little high, but not just in comparison with modern diets but overall the recognition of meat as a vital nutritional source for humans is a good thing about this diet. Their draw away from processed foods is very healthy, and focusing on eating nutrient dense as opposed to nutrient empty (which many carb sources are) is additionally good. I think Paleo would get much greater recognition if they highlighted this last point about carb-rich foods over generating all this fear and animosity towards gluten (lol) to market the lifestyle.
    Yes processed foods are unhealthy, I am glad just about everyone agrees with that statement and I agree 100% with the mistake the paleo crowd has made with its marketing approach. Some try and work off a fear tactic while I prefer to just exemplify the whole nutrient dense vs nutrient void, as you can see from my above answer to the guy who asked about oatmeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, I don't see anywhere that i've said people should eat them, but that there isn't any justification to not eating them. Whats the point of taking in additional iron if you don't need any more? Whats the point of extra magnesium, potassium, etc? None. If you reach what micronutrient needs you have where the rest of the calories come from is moot. Similarly with calling the phytates antinutrients, thats great and all, and a convenient rally cry but if you are eating enough vegetables also containing those nutrients and also taking vitamins then it makes 0 difference as you have a surplus of those nutrients.

    Tell me, what exactly extra nutrients are in all the fats you take in after you reach the point where you've hit the necessary levels of EFAs? Nothing but calories. So why do you eat them then?

    Grains are convenient, filling, and provide a source of energy. And for the majority of people there is no evidence of any reason to avoid them.

    Realistically, the whole paleo diet has about as much justification scientifically as the Keye's "healthy heart" diet does. The intellectual dishonesty among its supporters is funny. Gary Taubes in his book "Good Calories Bad Calories" continuously discredits the low fat high carbohydrate diet as providing no difference in mortality rates even if there is a slightly lower heart disease death rate. The piece of his intellectual dishonesty is that the Keyes diet also doesn't show any higher mortality rate so theres no particular superiority in terms of lifespan to eating high fat low carbs. So if there is no lifespan difference, eat what you like, eat whats convenient.

    And honestly, had this thread been titled as "Having problems reaching your goals? Maybe gluten is the problem" and the first few posts been asking/telling people to try a 4/6/8 week span of no gluten and see how their progress is in that time, I would have been totally supportive, as it is definitely a strategy worth trying. But when it starts with





    it headed down the cultish following path rather than a logical and sensible path. If theres no to minimal studies, and even those are mostly just blood markers, not any mid to long term health studies then you are just using anecdotal evidence and you've got no more real justification than someone advocating a grapfruit diet.

    Same with ketogenic diets and fat loss, 0 real world evidence of any greater fat loss or muscle retention with keto vs other diets, actually some found greater muscle loss with keto. But the anecdotal "I lost 100% fat, no muscle" has trumped that apparently. And whenever you ask them how they know, of course the answer is "my bench press went up by 10lbs while I was doing it, so I couldn't have lost any muscle" which is just a total joke.
    First where are you getting you micro-nutrient recommendations from??? I sure hope you dont respond thew USDA because there daily RDA are laughable at best. What do you consider optimal nutrient requirements and what are you basing this off of?

    Whats the point of extra magnesium? None??? Really did you just say that? Arent you not the one who suggested a magnesium salt to me as it has been shown to raise DHEA levels? You do realize that 300+ enzymes use magnesium as a cofactor right? In fact, there exists an entire school of thought that posits that the entire Metabolic Syndrome is nothing but a manifestation of a a magnesium deficiency.

    Yes phytates are antinutrients I am glad you can see that. What I am confused about is how are you stating that while eating an abundance of these antinutrients you are saying that by also eating an abundance of nutrient containing it makes 0 difference. Can you please explain your reasoning here and provide clinical peer reviewed studies to support your statement (See I can play this game too)

    What are the nutrients of fats? Come on, I know your smarter then this and wont bother spending time explaining why we NEED fat intake in our diet. Again what are the levels of fats needed and where did you get these levels from? You say once you reach some imaginary level of fat intake you just dont need anymore and the rest is wasteful? That is a pretty bold statement IMO.

    Grains are more then just convenient they are cheap and that is the true reason why we eat them in such great amounts. As to there is no evidence to avoid them..fine I will let you have that because I honestly tire of trying to convince people, instead I ask, what is ANY reason to consume them other then they are cheap? Any health benefits? Does you body NEED them? Any studies to show that a diet in high grains will promote a long healthy life?

    Gary Taubes is a author and nothing more. I have told you this before along with suggesting you look into protein power by Dr. Eades if you want scientific reasoning behind it. The intentions of good calories bad calories was to break it down to the everyday man that is why it is written the way it is. Paleo Diet and Protein Power and 2 books that both breakdown scientifically the reasoning behind the diets and suggestions.

    0 real world evidence for ketogenic diets? Seriously???? This is somewhat redundant as we had this discussion in another thread and I submitted at least a half dozen studies for you and you never returned back to that thread. Have you reviewed them all? Want some more? Also please note I am not a proponent of a ketogenic diet but to say there is 0 evidence is disingenuous at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by lukehayd View Post
    Yes, I did read the article. However, I am man enough to admit that there are things that I didn't understand. I was not saying that the paleo diet was bad. When it comes down to it, I eat more meat than anything else. Mostly all of the meat is wild game (deer, turkey, fish etc.) or beef from my father-in-laws ranch (not feedyard!!) I believe that what you said about the grains being different from ages past is true. Just look at all the genetic modifications that are made to it...insect resistance, herbicide resistance, taller, stronger stalks, rot resistance the list goes on and on. So you ask why continue to eat it and I say for no other reason than the simple fact that I like it. If we want to talk about being devoid of any nutrients, lets talk about most of the bottled water out there. Filtered down so the is absolutely nothing left. No minerals or nutrients at all. Essentially it is "DEAD" water. Then there is the tap water that is loaded with chlorine, fluoride and who knows what else. O.K. that was off subject. My post was not an insult to the diet at all and if anyone took it that way, I do apologize. I did address the attitude of (your words) "holier than thou" and felt it was uncalled for. I believe in moderation in all things. Too much of something can kill you and not enough can kill you too.
    That is awesome!!! I have friends who are hunters and I beg them for deer all the time! And I am definitely jealous over having a father inlaw that has his own ranch, I get my beef from a local farmer who only sells shares of cows and only does when he has enough orders that it is worth raising a cow for. The main problem with the "everything in moderation" argument is what defines the limits of moderation? i.e. how much is too much? And what is this based off of? I am in no way 100% paleo as I still enjoy the occasional slice of cake or burger and I believe that to be fine. Again I dont subscribe to ALL of the paleo beliefs and I dont suggest anyone to I do suggest that one experiment with it and make it their own. That someone look at the information subjectively and make a decision for themselves. The problem most people have is they "feel" fine with their diet, everyone they know eats that way, and they themselves have been eating that way for as long as they can remember and again they think they are fine so they see no harm and dismiss any information. The argument that grains are fine because you have been eating them for 30 years is invalid. This is like finding a man who smoked a pack of cigarettes every day and is 80 and cancer free. Would this mean cigarettes dont cause cancer? There will always be anomalies and nothing will be true for everyone, again you have to look at the info and make a decision on what is best for you and you alone.
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    the people that are sensitive to gluten and decide to cut it from their diet need to realize that you will become increasingly sensitive to it. In other words, after a few weeks of zero gluten in your diet, if you decide to max on pizza one night, your gonna feel like total hore**** compared to before you started dieting.

    My g/f's family all believe they are allergic to gluten, and claim to feel better without it... and whenever one of them slips, they are literally passing out on the couch feeling nauseous after 15min
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    the people that are sensitive to gluten and decide to cut it from their diet need to realize that you will become increasingly sensitive to it. In other words, after a few weeks of zero gluten in your diet, if you decide to max on pizza one night, your gonna feel like total hore**** compared to before you started dieting.

    My g/f's family all believe they are allergic to gluten, and claim to feel better without it... and whenever one of them slips, they are literally passing out on the couch feeling nauseous after 15min
    Good point. Its like Medical professionals now realizing that being "too clean" leads to kids having more allergies as the body doesn't grow up around these so called irritants.

    BALANCE IS THE KEY. That being said, Don't eat substances that make you ill in quantities that make you ill.

    It is worth noting that some of the societies with the highest rates of longevity, eat lots of grains. Make of that what you will.

    It sucks to have food allergies/intolerance but not all humans react the same to exogenous substances......Its not a one size fits all concept. Tons of people eat gluten and are perfectly fine, so let them enjoy the foods.......they are the lucky ones ( and I am one of them )
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    ...

    Prior to agriculture the cavity rate among man was around 5%, whereas after agriculture the cavity rate rose to around 20%.
    ...
    Don't forget the introduction of processed foods and refined sugars played a part in that too!

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    ...I sure hope you dont respond thew USDA because there daily RDA are laughable at best. What do you consider optimal nutrient requirements and what are you basing this off of?
    ...

    That is awesome!!! I have friends who are hunters and I beg them for deer all the time! And I am definitely jealous over having a father inlaw that has his own ranch, I get my beef from a local farmer who only sells shares of cows and only does when he has enough orders that it is worth raising a cow for. The main problem with the "everything in moderation" argument is what defines the limits of moderation? i.e. how much is too much? And what is this based off of? ...
    Agreed with your points on the USDA and RDA values.

    I have a friend who hunts and gives me venison that we make into some great jerky. We get our meat from a free range retailer...but mainly because it tastes exceptional!

    I also think moderation is important but is also very subjective. What is moderate to one individual could be intolerable for another. It makes it difficult to define exact ranges or values for it.

    and yes, I'm aware that I didn't really add anything of value to this thread with this post!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    This isnt in reference to my post is it? My post was specifically in regards to your statement saying we have been eating grains for 10,000 years and the studies and statements I posted are based of anthropology evidence and not evolution. This isn't to say evolution isnt an argument used by the paleo crowd but it isn't the only or main one.
    nah, wasn't about you. Although relative to much other scientific information, most anthropological is fairly sketchy. Even things like average heights, mortality rates, etc is estimates as there are only a limited number of skeletons/fossils found.


    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    You know what cracks me up about your postings Easy? The fact that anytime someone post something you disagree with you alweays demand peer reviewed studies that were done to specific standards that you hold and demand that there be a plethora of them in order to even be considered, yet you go around and post these random statements, statistics and "facts" without any evidence whatsoever to back them.
    I was actually just giving them the benefit of the doubt that there could be that much. The only number really shown was something under 1%, 1 in 113 have some level of celiac syndrome. Without some sort of scientific study, it is just wild guesses as to what the % of gluten allergy at any level is.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    First where are you getting you micro-nutrient recommendations from??? I sure hope you dont respond thew USDA because there daily RDA are laughable at best. What do you consider optimal nutrient requirements and what are you basing this off of?

    Whats the point of extra magnesium? None??? Really did you just say that? Arent you not the one who suggested a magnesium salt to me as it has been shown to raise DHEA levels? You do realize that 300+ enzymes use magnesium as a cofactor right? In fact, there exists an entire school of thought that posits that the entire Metabolic Syndrome is nothing but a manifestation of a a magnesium deficiency.
    Again the point was EXTRA. you could eat a pound of magnesium a day (while ****ting your brains out) and it would give 0 benefit more than taking 1 gram a day. And the magnesium oil topical is totally separate here. There isn't any amount of oral magnesium you can take to get that effect. Similar to how oral winstrol will at 20mg a day for 3 days clip SHBG levels significantly, but no amount injected over any length of time will lower SHBG. It doesn't change that there is only so much of any nutrient that you will use, the rest is excreted.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Yes phytates are antinutrients I am glad you can see that. What I am confused about is how are you stating that while eating an abundance of these antinutrients you are saying that by also eating an abundance of nutrient containing it makes 0 difference. Can you please explain your reasoning here and provide clinical peer reviewed studies to support your statement (See I can play this game too)
    From what info I can find, the amount of phytates in wheat flour varies, from 10mg/g to 20mg/g. So assuming bread with 25g of flour in it, thats somewhere from 250-500mg of phytates. The part I can't find anywhere is binding rate. Its great to talk about how its an antinutrient, but without having some evidence as to how "antinutrient" it is the real impact is debatable. Also, phytates have some health benefits, so calling it an antinutrient may be questionable anyway. There is evidence of protection against certain cancers, protective benefits against osteoporosis, protection from Parkinson’s disease, reduce inflammation in the body, reduce oxidative stress on the digestive tract, reduce depression, slows blood glucose response by slowing digestion. So even if you have to take in a small amount more of minerals to make up for what it binds to, i fail to see the horror.



    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    What are the nutrients of fats? Come on, I know your smarter then this and wont bother spending time explaining why we NEED fat intake in our diet. Again what are the levels of fats needed and where did you get these levels from? You say once you reach some imaginary level of fat intake you just dont need anymore and the rest is wasteful? That is a pretty bold statement IMO.
    I'm not using specific numbers however you'd have to be crazy to think that your body will use an unlimited amount of any nutrient. Regardless of whether we are talking about 1 gram of omega 3s or 10g worth, there comes a point where you've covered your EFA needs for the day, and the fats you take in are nothing more than calories. Same with protein as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Grains are more then just convenient they are cheap and that is the true reason why we eat them in such great amounts. As to there is no evidence to avoid them..fine I will let you have that because I honestly tire of trying to convince people, instead I ask, what is ANY reason to consume them other then they are cheap? Any health benefits? Does you body NEED them? Any studies to show that a diet in high grains will promote a long healthy life?
    Actually there are a number of large scale studies showing that a diet high in grains promotes as long and healthy a life as the high fat low grain diet. Gary Taubes presents them in his book, continuously using them as proof that the high grain diet is "no better than" the high fat diet.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    0 real world evidence for ketogenic diets? Seriously???? This is somewhat redundant as we had this discussion in another thread and I submitted at least a half dozen studies for you and you never returned back to that thread. Have you reviewed them all? Want some more? Also please note I am not a proponent of a ketogenic diet but to say there is 0 evidence is disingenuous at best.
    At least one of those studies actually showed keto losing more muscle than a non ketogenic diet (even though a larger total weight was lost on the ketogenic diet at slightly higher calories, the non-ketogenic diet lost more fat), or were comparisons of different low carb diets. I'll say it again, there isn't any evidence that at a given calorie level a ketogenic diet is any more muscle sparing than a diet containing carbs. Its as good as a carb containing diet, and some individuals do well on it as far as hunger pangs and other issues. But it also carries a cult following with no real justification for the claims of "you won't lose any muscle on a keto diet".

    And just like paleo or gluten free, keto dieting is something that is worth people trying, to see how well it works for them because dieting without hunger issues or cravings is way easier than dealing with those, and seeing if you have significant gluten alergic reaction is worth testing too. But it just like paleo and gluten free shouldn't be pressed as the only answer, and as the first answer, and that anyone who suggests otherwise is crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    That is awesome!!! I have friends who are hunters and I beg them for deer all the time! And I am definitely jealous over having a father inlaw that has his own ranch, I get my beef from a local farmer who only sells shares of cows and only does when he has enough orders that it is worth raising a cow for. The main problem with the "everything in moderation" argument is what defines the limits of moderation? i.e. how much is too much? And what is this based off of? I am in no way 100% paleo as I still enjoy the occasional slice of cake or burger and I believe that to be fine. Again I dont subscribe to ALL of the paleo beliefs and I dont suggest anyone to I do suggest that one experiment with it and make it their own. That someone look at the information subjectively and make a decision for themselves. The problem most people have is they "feel" fine with their diet, everyone they know eats that way, and they themselves have been eating that way for as long as they can remember and again they think they are fine so they see no harm and dismiss any information. The argument that grains are fine because you have been eating them for 30 years is invalid. This is like finding a man who smoked a pack of cigarettes every day and is 80 and cancer free. Would this mean cigarettes dont cause cancer? There will always be anomalies and nothing will be true for everyone, again you have to look at the info and make a decision on what is best for you and you alone.
    Yes, moderation is completely subjective to the individual there is really no set limits. It is saying it is ok to have that twinkie once in a while but not eat a whole box of them at once. Lol! (Yeah, I know, twinkies are horrible for you but they are tasty). Dang, now I want a twinkie! I guess it's just figuring out what amounts work for your body based on what your specific goals are. On the other hand, though, there are some things that IMO are not. For example, the scenario of the smoker. I know that some feel it is an acceptable way to control weight but it is a nasty habit that is VERY bad for anyone. I can say this as an ex-smoker for 5 years now.

    I enjoy reading about different diets and what works for others because I am constantly trying to gain knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    "One of the most studied foods in the recent years is wheat, which contains a protein called gliadin, and is part of the gluten protein family22. Gliadin increases gut permeability by means of Zonulin production (a protein that regulates in tight junctions between cells in the wall of the digestive tract) in the gut enterocytes (epithelial cells found in the small intestines and colon). Zonulin binds the CXCR3 chemokine receptor leading to intracellular signalling cascades, mediated by protein kinase C (PKC), which ultimately causes disruption of the tight junction proteins which maintain the gut barrier function, and lead to increased gut permeability23, 24.
    In addition, when intestinal permeability is increased, gliadin - which is resistant to heat and digestive enzymes - is able to interact with gut associated lymphoid tissue (GALT) stimulating the innate immune system, leading to low-grade chronic inflammation22, 24. Several studies have demonstrated that gliadin induces the production of pro-inflammatory cytokines (a small protein released by cells that has a specific effect on the interactions between cells, communications between cells or the behavior of cells), independent of one’s genetic predisposition to celiac disease – which is virtually everyone23, 25, 26."


    Can you link me to the FT of this paper, or email/pm me it. Or post the references that 22-26 cites

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Can you link me to the FT of this paper, or email/pm me it. Or post the references that 22-26 cites

    Br
    go to page 6 of this thread, JudoJosh posted the entire document.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    history aside, do you consume gluten rich products every day with no restriction? how do you feel?
    Powerfull to say the least. Yah when I eat a big bowl of pasta I get bloated and fill up and look soft but it feels great! Not to mention the pumps , last night I ate a box of kraft macncheese with a can of tuna Mix in dammm love them grains!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou321 View Post
    So red/sweet potatoes, fruits, veggies, quinoa are the most nutrient dense source of carbs right? rice is pretty void of nutrients right? What about sprouted grain breads. Im trying to learn which foods give me the most bang for my buck so to speak. I learned a lot, thanks guys.
    I'm still doing research... But I've heard sprouted grains are by far better then regular. When I eat unprocessed sprouted grains I feel great. :x
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicRyan1 View Post
    I'm still doing research... But I've heard sprouted grains are by far better then regular. When I eat unprocessed sprouted grains I feel great. :x
    Yes sprouted are much better
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    Judo you are the man. Period. Lots of great info there.


    I have to also say... Maybe our opinions are tied into our direct personal experiences rather then experiences we haven't had. Just maybe. Which is why being in tune to your body and going through different cycles will help in time to show what's most effective for health, and individual goals.

    I loose about 5 lbs every time I begin a carb restricted diet... And I'm fairly sure it's not muscle. If I did a purely calorie restricted diet, which I have, find I have much more muscle loss.

    Also alwaysgaining. Lol I'm pretty confident kraft Mac and cheese IS actually poison. Haha but really tasty

    Good rule of thumb... The more mass produced something is, the more things become about $ not about quality.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplements/173797-one-small-step.html Getting my ass beat and logging it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicRyan1 View Post
    Judo you are the man. Period. Lots of great info there.


    I have to also say... Maybe our opinions are tied into our direct personal experiences rather then experiences we haven't had. Just maybe. Which is why being in tune to your body and going through different cycles will help in time to show what's most effective for health, and individual goals.

    I loose about 5 lbs every time I begin a carb restricted diet... And I'm fairly sure it's not muscle. If I did a purely calorie restricted diet, which I have, find I have much more muscle loss.

    Also alwaysgaining. Lol I'm pretty confident kraft Mac and cheese IS actually poison. Haha but really tasty

    Good rule of thumb... The more mass produced something is, the more things become about $ not about quality.
    that 5 pounds is usually water you lose when you dump all the extra glycogen
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    Quote Originally Posted by alwaysgaining View Post
    Powerfull to say the least. Yah when I eat a big bowl of pasta I get bloated and fill up and look soft but it feels great! Not to mention the pumps , last night I ate a box of kraft macncheese with a can of tuna Mix in dammm love them grains!
    first you say you look soft and then you say you get pumps from grains?
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    You probably will get a pump from having extra fluid within the cell, but who really cares about a pump? It has no bearing on the quality or a workout and does not indicate anything other than bloodflow to the area. I can get a hell of a pump from eating brownies, but that doesn't make it an optimal food.
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    Now hear this. Brownies being sold on body building(dot) com.

    The ultimate pre workout delight! 30 pounds of lean fat in 30 days! :P

    Muscletech! The sciense of muscular technology!!
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    i definitely agree with helping yourself if you have a problem.

    but like the guy said, you could not be gluten intolerant making the point moot.


    i also like the idea of limiting gluten instead of eliminating it.....you shouldnt be eating gluten enriched foods all day anyway. that wouldnt be healthy because if you're eating bread all day, what are you not eating?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonG42O View Post
    every time we start a thread like this all the bagel lovers unite and throw a sh!t fit. just for your information people, keep stuffing gluten like its your job.


    /sigh

    I just wish I got paid for it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You probably will get a pump from having extra fluid within the cell, but who really cares about a pump? It has no bearing on the quality or a workout and does not indicate anything other than bloodflow to the area. I can get a hell of a pump from eating brownies, but that doesn't make it an optimal food.
    but it makes the pump FUN and tasty
  

  
 

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