soy vs whey. too good to be true?

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    Post soy vs whey. too good to be true?


    I found this article and thought it was probabbly a vegetarian talking out of his ass, but wanted some opinions. I love animals and if Soy was in fact superior to my 40 egg whites 3 egg yolks and 400g of beef a day I would happily make the switch
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    Soy Protein Isolate benefits for Bodybuilders
    Animal research suggests some great advantages of using soy protein isolate as a bodybuilding supplement. Research has shown that the isoflavone daidzein found in soy-protein isolate might have a gender specific normalizing effect on sex-hormone production. Lab animals experienced testosterone and growth hormone excretion as well as muscle growth in males, while the female animals experienced a decrease in these hormones and fat loss.

    Daidzein is a key isoflavone found in soy that acts as a potent phyto-estrogen. It is structurally a very weak "pseudo-estrogen" (about 1000 times weaker than the body's primary estrogen estradiol). This is good news to the bodybuilder because weak estrogens like daidzein will compete with stronger estrogens like estradiol for available receptor sites to "bind" to. By binding to the receptor sites daidzein then "blocks" the stronger estrogens from binding to and activating receptor sites. With the daidzein isolflavone attached, estrogen receptor sites remain inactive. This inactivity further minimizes the negative effects of estrogen in the body. Many researchers believe this effect is the reason soy protein is linked to a reduction in the risk for many forms of breast, endometrial, and prostate cancer. This mechanism works similarly to the prescription drug Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)--an anti-estrogen staple in the bodybuilding community.

    Research also indicates that the soy-protein isolates may reduce nitrogen loss and keep you in a positive nitrogen balance to better facilitate muscle growth. The human body can only repair and build muscles when it has a positive nitrogen balance.

    Of particular interest to the bodybuilder is Soy Isolates high concentration of the amino acids glutamine and arginine. These two aminos are extremely important to a body builder for their ability to release growth hormone, aid in immune system functions, and for their ability to speed muscle cell recovery.


    Glutamine: Which protein has the most.
    Isn't the claim true about whey having significantly higher amounts of glutamine and BCAAs? Sorry, but NO! Whey does have the highest amounts of BCAAs of any protein but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY higher amounts. When it comes to the amounts of glutamine, soy beats whey hands down. For every 100 grams of protein, whey has 20.1 grams of BCAAs and 4.9 grams of glutamine. Maybe to your surprise, soy has 18.1 grams of BCAAs and a whopping 10.5 grams of glutamine! Again, we have been lied to and deceived.
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    so what'dya think? the glutamine levels and nitrogen balances sound great. The much weaker estrogen like molecule competing for receptors with estrogens sounds amazing as well and 'seems' to have some logic behind it...
    but im skeptical... let's see opinions and get some new non-steroid based knowledge out on this forum!

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    well if its any help . in the book The testosterone syndrome , basically a book about guys having testosterone replacement therapy supports a lot of what is said above especially where it competes with the more potent estrogen for the receptor sites.
    i am on trt and have always kept away from soy to the point where it can be the 4th ingredient in a protein blend so ive not bought it.

    i use indole -3 -carbinol to "control " my estrogen levels along with reservatrol
    here is something from T-nation you might want to consider

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...ll_bad_protein

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...e_evils_of_soy

    incidentally whey is a far superior protein .
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    I was always told soy lowers test levels. Albeit just slightly, but hey...every little bit helps
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    thanks for the post! this is kinda what I always thought, but this article made me curious. anyways I trust T-nation more than a vocally expressive vegetarian arse...
    So thank you! won't be switching anytime soon!

    and for anyone else reading here's a followup on estrogen receptors:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These two villains bind readily to Estrogen Receptors. One such receptor is the Alpha receptor and the other, of course, is the Beta receptor. The Alpha receptor is the one generally associated with breast tumors, increased body fat, water retention, etc. The Beta receptor really isn't something to worry about. Anyhow, genistein and daidzein can bind rather well to the Alpha receptor.

    No big deal right? Well, it might actually be somewhat beneficial if they didn't activate transcription to any significant degree, as this would be what's considered an anti-estrogenic action. In other words, it would be good if the compound binded to the site and didn't cause any growth, while preventing any naturally-produced estrogen from binding (the estrogen "parking spots" would already be filled). However, genistein does activate transcription to a significant degree after binding to the Alpha receptor and therefore will cause growth of tissues.(1,2,3)
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    No extra soy for me (at least what I can avoid) thats not already slipped into my food.
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    I've read that soy leads to high estrogen.
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    Ugh- people really need to do their research on soy. Some fun soy myths and just how stupid they are:

    #1 Soy lowers testosterone levels:
    Source: an animal study done many years ago on a particular species of monkey. It has not been replicated in humans at all- in fact the lowering of testosterone was specific to their innate physiology. A study was done a few years back with 36 treatment groups- there was absolutely no difference in testosterone levels between controls and males given high soy diets. None.

    #2 Soy increases estrogen:
    Source: misunderstandings about the isoflavones in soy which, as the OP noted, actually compete with estrogen for binding sites making soy, ironically, a product that *reduces* estrogen activity. And phytoestrogens are chemically different than estrogens in our bodies- they don't even function the same way in the human body. Plus the isoflavones/phytoestrogens are MUCH weaker than estrogens.

    Irony: bodybuilders all over the US adamantly refuse to consume soy because they mistakenly believe it increases estrogen levels, and instead they run to US raised beef- which is LOADED with synthetic estrogen (to the point where the EU has refused to import our beef over the high hormone levels). How's that for ironic?

    Myth #3: Soy isn't a complete protein
    Some time in the 70s some guy testing rats found that soy wasn't a complete protein for them. However, rats need more amino acids than do humans. Turns out- it has all 8 essential amino acids that humans need. He retracted his statements many times over, but no one listened.

    What soy DOES:
    improves post-workout recovery
    reduces risks of cancer
    reduces risk of heart disease

    What soy DOESN'T do:
    load you up with synthetic hormones like meat or dioxin like whey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDLMaj View Post
    Ugh- people really need to do their research on soy. Some fun soy myths and just how stupid they are:

    #1 Soy lowers testosterone levels:
    Source: an animal study done many years ago on a particular species of monkey. It has not been replicated in humans at all- in fact the lowering of testosterone was specific to their innate physiology. A study was done a few years back with 36 treatment groups- there was absolutely no difference in testosterone levels between controls and males given high soy diets. None.

    #2 Soy increases estrogen:
    Source: misunderstandings about the isoflavones in soy which, as the OP noted, actually compete with estrogen for binding sites making soy, ironically, a product that *reduces* estrogen activity. And phytoestrogens are chemically different than estrogens in our bodies- they don't even function the same way in the human body. Plus the isoflavones/phytoestrogens are MUCH weaker than estrogens.

    Irony: bodybuilders all over the US adamantly refuse to consume soy because they mistakenly believe it increases estrogen levels, and instead they run to US raised beef- which is LOADED with synthetic estrogen (to the point where the EU has refused to import our beef over the high hormone levels). How's that for ironic?

    Myth #3: Soy isn't a complete protein
    Some time in the 70s some guy testing rats found that soy wasn't a complete protein for them. However, rats need more amino acids than do humans. Turns out- it has all 8 essential amino acids that humans need. He retracted his statements many times over, but no one listened.

    What soy DOES:
    improves post-workout recovery
    reduces risks of cancer
    reduces risk of heart disease

    What soy DOESN'T do:
    load you up with synthetic hormones like meat or dioxin like whey.
    i take it your main source of protein is soy?

    with regard to pwo recovery other options are available.

    please can you post the links to the studies you refer to
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    Soy is disgusting and not fit to be consumed by anyone. Have you ever read the ingredients of soy milk? It's over-processed garbage and I call BS on those claims listed above.
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    I consume soy all the time and have no problems with it.
    Ageforce rep, Lets patch up those mistakes and stop going oral.
    Knowledge is power- The power to do your part and make a difference.
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    ^^^ Me too. I snack on Smart Dogs all the time, i even eat em cold.The Gimme Lean stuff that is ground beef style tastes great if you cook it up like taco meat w/ a taco seasoning packet. All of its fat free, low carb, high protein. makes for great snacks on low carb days.

    For my main meals I go for real meat though.
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    Again leucine is leucine so weather it is comming from soy or whey or beans leucine is leucine as long as your getting all your amino acids you should be fine.
    Ageforce rep, Lets patch up those mistakes and stop going oral.
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    didnt read. soy suuukks. one of the most poorly absorbed proteins, flucuates hormone levels. terrible
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    Anything that is highly genetically engineered should not be a major part of the diet. Soy is hard on the digestive system and is not readily bioavailable.

    Also, just an observation, most of the people who are adamant soy consumers are small and not very muscular. Causation or correlation....?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
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