Caffiene, and Blood vessel health.

[Cooky32]

Ok, I need to know if any experts out there know if my coffee habit is contributing to constricted blood vessels??? I am going to start drinking more tea, and I use NO products, and practice good health and obviously exercise for good blood vessel health. I drink wine some, which I know is good too. Red wine to be exact.

It would just be hard to quit, but I would like to know if me cutting down would be very beneficial.

Please help if anyone has facts or opnions.

THanks

 

[PublicEnemy]

The simple answer is yes, its a vasoconstrictor.

Following is the complex answer, which you can feel free to skip.

In the basal ganglia it acts as a vasoconstrictor by antagonizing Adenosine 2A-subtype alpha receptors; and also serves to act as a vasoconstrictor throughout the rest of the brain. This is why caffeine can be used to treat migraine headaches; there also is no tolerance for this mechanism. I'm a little fuzzy on how prominent that receptor subtype is in cardiovascular endothelial cells.

Caffeine can also act as a vasoconstrictor through secondary mechanisms throughout the whole CVS. However, one of the main metabolites- theobromine also serves to act as an endothelial vasodilator. I'm not clear on the how potent it is.

Lastly, there is little clinical evidence linking caffeine consumption to cancer and cardiovascular disease.

 

[BIG R]

A lot of evidence coming in that coffee helps the liver. Doctors dont know for sure how or why, but the facts dont lie: 80% drop in liver cancer to those who drink four or more cups a day.

Dont know if thats of interest to you, but figured I would put it out there.

And of course there's a good chance you already have heard this.

 

[Cooky32]

Yes, thanks, and the anti oxidant properties, and how it increases the actions of insulin. I think I will continue. I had an americano yesterday, and then 1 scoop 1M.R. about 90 minutes later. I was so strong, and had plenty of energy for the workout.

If it helps the liver I am down to keep drinking it. I do drink good coffee though. I found a place here, that roasts their own beans in house.

 

[AntonG42O]

with prolonged use you can deplete your adrenal glands. adrenaline is what gives you the feeling of alertness and energy. i found this online:

"Caffeine forces your glands to secrete when they don’t have much left to give, and they have to keep digging deeper and deeper, making you more and more tired over time. And over the years, it takes more and more coffee to get the same result. Some people reach the point of drinking half a dozen or more cups of coffee to get the same result and it’s barely keeping them awake. That’s severe adrenal depletion.”

and this

"Within five minutes after you drink your morning coffee, the caffeine begins to stimulate your central nervous system, triggering the release of stress hormones in your body, causing a stress (“fight or flight” ) response. The stress hormones are useful if you need to prepare yourself to fight or flee a dangerous situation, but if you are simply sitting at your desk you may feel a short charge of alertness, quickly followed by feelings of agitation. Within the next hour or so, after the stress response dissipates, you will probably feel more tired and hungry."

off topic but I dont drink caffeine myself and got a little curious so I looked this up, FYI. caffeine gives me wicked jitters even from a little bit so I prefer to just get some sleep and eat well.

 

[AntonG42O]

oh and since we are all fitness minded individuals here, along with adrenaline the glands pump out norepinephrine and cortisol!!! the dreaded cortisollllll

 

[AntonG42O]

oh and i just found this, sorry for jacking your thread:

"Although caffeine has been shown to increase endurance time, further research shows it may actually blunt the effect of creatine, a popular and well-researched compound known for its consistent ergogenic effects. In a study evaluating the effect of pre-exercise caffeine ingestion on both creatine stores and high-intensity exercise performance, caffeine totally counteracted any effects of creatine supplementation. It was suggested that individuals who creatine load should refrain from caffeine-containing foods and beverages if positive effects are desired."

"Caffeine is also a diuretic and causes a loss of fluid, which then leads to a dehydrating effect. This is obviously not conducive to fitness activities such as resistance training, as fluid is needed for the transfer of nutrients to facilitate muscular growth. It is also important when considering the further loss of fluid while exercising in hot environments."

thats it im done lol sorry

 

[Cooky32]

Well, I may have to really cut down. I have heard other studies stating caffiene has no effect on creatines effectiveness, but what is true. Are they saying that to sell a product? Rich Gaspari puts caffiene in his superpump, and he says he paid for the clinical trials??? I will cut down, but it will take some time, and some ADRENAL CLEANSE that I will buy this payday.

Thanks bro

 

[AntonG42O]

Well, I may have to really cut down. I have heard other studies stating caffiene has no effect on creatines effectiveness, but what is true. Are they saying that to sell a product? Rich Gaspari puts caffiene in his superpump, and he says he paid for the clinical trials??? I will cut down, but it will take some time, and some ADRENAL CLEANSE that I will buy this payday.

Thanks bro

Yea he puts caffeine into Superpump so you feel "extreme energy and focus!!!" which in reality just a simply caffeine rush. then he puts a couple other ingredients that look good on paper, NO precursors that i believe dont do a damn thing, BCAA's and sells it to you for $60 dollars. there have been studies saying that L-arganine has absolutely no effect on our NO levels unless taken in massive massive toxic quantities. a money making scheme to have teenagers craving "roadmap vascularity". check the amount of caffeine in all those NO products, its always at least 3-4 cups of coffee worth per serving..no wonder you are raging in the gym lol

clinical trials are a bunch of BS too probably, whos ever going to see them?

 

[AntonG42O]

for adrenal glands its probably cheaper to just go with some herbal adaptogens rather than buying another product. these will relax the nervous system and after getting some good sleep your glands will be back to normal. if you cut down the caffeine of course.
some good cheap adaptogens:

L-theanine, ashwaganda, ginseng, rhodiola rosea.

 

[kingdong]

Preworkout caffeine gives me hemmoroid flareups. It only takes about the caffeine of one cup of coffee too. I think it's from the vaso constriction in my "area".

 

[PublicEnemy]

Well, I may have to really cut down. I have heard other studies stating caffiene has no effect on creatines effectiveness, but what is true. Are they saying that to sell a product? Rich Gaspari puts caffiene in his superpump, and he says he paid for the clinical trials??? I will cut down, but it will take some time, and some ADRENAL CLEANSE that I will buy this payday.

Hey Cooky, on average what do you think your caffeine intake is daily? IMO and to be completely realistic; i wouldn't expect up to 200mg daily to cause adrenal fatigue.

Concerning creatine and caffeine it seems to me they are antagonistic. A lot of people tout caffeine induced diuresis as the cause. I don't deny it, but it would be relatively hard to measure just how much of a dehydrating effect caffeine would have.

What seems to be pretty conclusive evidence to me is the opposing actions they have on muscle contraction. Creatine has been clinically confirmed to shorten muscle relaxation time, which means more myofibril twitches in a period of time and therefore a stronger muscle contraction. All a muscle contraction is is an extremely a large summation of individual myofibril twitches. A single myofibril twitch takes about 50 milliseconds to contract and another 50-100 milliseconds to relax.

Caffeine pretty much does the opposite by reducing the muscle fiber's capacity to remove calcium ions from the myofibril. Calcium ions need to be removed for the myofibril to relax, so it essentially overpowers creatine benefits.

And thus ends another long winded explanation.

 

[AntonG42O]

well there you go, you just did your own study right here lol

 

[Cooky32]

This has been enlightening. I have already cut down, but I will have to work on an NO product without caffiene. I will cut down slowly, until I am only drinking tea, and some occasional cups of coffee. I appreciate the input. What about Geranium? I am just looking to know now if the oxy elite pro I got for free is worth keeping and using.

 

[AntonG42O]

This has been enlightening. I have already cut down, but I will have to work on an NO product without caffiene. I will cut down slowly, until I am only drinking tea, and some occasional cups of coffee. I appreciate the input. What about Geranium? I am just looking to know now if the oxy elite pro I got for free is worth keeping and using.

yea stick to green tea over coffee or black tea, wont stain your teeth and has good antioxidants, L-theanine. not sure about geranium but if its free then use it up and see if you feel a difference.

in terms of preworkout ive been using beta alanine and ive felt a pretty big difference in my lactic acid threshold. more of an aerobic advantage but thats what i need for my BJJ. its a relatively new supplement but i feel like it really works. nutra sells it in bulk for pretty cheap.

 

[Cooky32]

Roger, I will add that. Just had some green tea as a matter of fact. I am going to go back to making my own pre workout. Thanks man.I am thinking about

BETA ALANINE
CREATINE
GLUTAMINE
BCAA 2-1-1
CARBS 20-40 GM
GPLC, OR GLYCOCARN
GERANIUM, IF NEEDED.
NIACIN.

Anything else.?????

 

[AntonG42O]

Roger, I will add that. Just had some green tea as a matter of fact. I am going to go back to making my own pre workout. Thanks man.I am thinking about

BETA ALANINE
CREATINE
GLUTAMINE
BCAA 2-1-1
CARBS 20-40 GM
GPLC, OR GLYCOCARN
GERANIUM, IF NEEDED.
NIACIN.

Anything else.?????

Ditch the glutamine, many people on this board posted about oral glutamine being ineffective. you get plenty in food.

drink the BCAA's during workout instead, no good drinking them preworkout.

where are ur carbs coming from? try dextrose, its 100% glucose and very cheap. NOW foods sells a good deal. carbs should also be taken in during workout rather than pre.

everything else i dont know much about, just be careful with niacin it will give your skin a big flush. ive never been a big fan but it could stack well with beta alanine/creatine. research on these boards whats a good amount of niacin to take.

 

[Cooky32]

The carbs is the NOW foods one you speak of. I will be using that one. I will check on NIACIN too. Thanks

 

[steakboy]

Caffeine pretty much does the opposite by reducing the muscle fiber's capacity to remove calcium ions from the myofibril. Calcium ions need to be removed for the myofibril to relax, so it essentially overpowers creatine benefits.

aww crap... i've been doing ECY for cutting and was using creatine to help with endurance. guess i just wasted a bunch. =/

 

[PublicEnemy]

This has been enlightening. I have already cut down, but I will have to work on an NO product without caffiene. I will cut down slowly, until I am only drinking tea, and some occasional cups of coffee. I appreciate the input. What about Geranium? I am just looking to know now if the oxy elite pro I got for free is worth keeping and using.

For OTC 1,3 Dimethylamylamine (geranium oil) is pretty powerful stuff. It also is a vasoconstrictor, but on a side note it's a great nasal decongestant. Tolerance sets in pretty rapidly, I get noticeably diminished psychoactive effects if I use it more than twice a week. If anything I suspect DMAA would be more adrenal-suppressive than caffeine. It does wonders in raising norepinephrine levels by itself, combining it with caffeine potentiates it to a whole other level (great pre w/o btw).

But really, if used sparingly I think your adrenals will be just fine. Adrenal fatigue can be as much a product of your environment as the supplements you're taking.

aww crap... i've been doing ECY for cutting and was using creatine to help with endurance. guess i just wasted a bunch. =/

Smeh... I still do it. The scientific literature is pretty clear cut but that doesn't mean its absolute. As long as I feel that creatine is aiding my workouts alongside caffeine I'm going to continue to do it. Creatine is dirt cheap anyways.

Personal question, but for what reason were you using creatine for endurance? Or I am just reading into this wrong and you were relating it in context to a work out?

 

[Cooky32]

I think I will try to just minimize it, so when I need it badly it will be effective. I will also purchase the herbs to help the adrenals out. I really want to look full for the contest. I may also be able to sell the OXY ELITE PRO TOO. I appreciate the info yall.

 

[Jet]

Caffeine pretty much does the opposite by reducing the muscle fiber's capacity to remove calcium ions from the myofibril. Calcium ions need to be removed for the myofibril to relax, so it essentially overpowers creatine benefits.

And thus ends another long winded explanation.

By what mechanism does caffeine prevent the removal of calcium ions? I've been told in my exercise physiology classes that caffeine increases contractility in isolated muscle tissue, not decreases it. And if it's true that caffeine reduces the contractility of muscle tissue, wouldn't it have this effect independent of creatine? If anything, it seems like creatine would help to counteract decreased contractility by providing higher turnover of ADP to ATP.

 

[PublicEnemy]

By what mechanism does caffeine prevent the removal of calcium ions? I've been told in my exercise physiology classes that caffeine increases contractility in isolated muscle tissue, not decreases it. And if it's true that caffeine reduces the contractility of muscle tissue, wouldn't it have this effect independent of creatine? If anything, it seems like creatine would help to counteract decreased contractility by providing higher turnover of ADP to ATP.

Good question. You are correct that caffeine increases contractility. Supplementing creatine is effective because higher PCr levels in the sarcoplasmic reticulum result in a faster rate of myosin phosphorylation and unbinding of actin. In short, creatine speeds the relaxation of muscle fibers.

In order for muscle contraction to occur, Calcium ions must be secreted into the myofibril and bind to troponin; which then allosterically modulates tropomyosin. For those unfamiliar with this, basically tropomyosin is a protein that covers the binding site for myosin that cannot be moved unless Calcium ions bind to a related protein called troponin. Cross-bridge cycling, or muscle contraction, cannot occur if tropomyosin is blocking the myosin/actin binding sites.

The myofibril will only be able to relax when Calcium ions are removed from the by the sarcoplasmic reticulum Calcium ATPase. Caffeine comes into the picture by inhibiting the effectiveness of SR Ca ATPase to remove Calcium ions from the myofibril. And since contractions will only be able to cease once the Ca ions are removed, it will take considerably longer for the myofibril to relax if caffeine is present.

EDIT:
Below is a summary of an article that appeared in the Journal of Applied Physiology which pretty much sums up what I just said, albeit probably easier to understand too.

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older/2002/A/2002833.html

 

[Cooky32]

Wow, if I was a Doctor, and not a Sailor that would be great lol. I am not going to quit caffiene intake for the show. Its too close. I will look into experimenting with greatly reducing, and possibly cutting it out after in the off season. This has been a wonderful journey. I will possibly reread this thread several times in the future. Pro bodybuilders drink coffee, take fat burners, and use pre workout supps. I've seen this. That is 500-800 mg of caffiene daily. They are still vascular, and still full. Hmmmm. I go by what I see and feel. This is not to deny medical evidence. I just need something tangible.

 

[jontrainer]

how about synerphine(bitter orange). Does that have the same effect on the vascular systems?

 

[Cooky32]

I am willing to bet that the benefits of caffiene and CNS stimulants out weigh the side effects. I also believe the side effects are minimal.

 

[AntonG42O]

I am willing to bet that the benefits of caffiene and CNS stimulants out weigh the side effects. I also believe the side effects are minimal.

if you consider pressing your adrenal glands to secret more adrenaline/cortisol minimal then go for it. bodybuilders are also jacked on roids and 10000 calories, no amount of caffeine is gonna do anything to them. the question is long term health and a relaxed nervous system rather than a constant state of "alertness". believe what you want but drinking caffeine isnt required to have a good physique or have great workouts.

 

[Cooky32]

I am not looking for a constant state of alertness. I take naps, and relax whenever possible. I still only use 1 scoop of jack3d. I know a lot of guys who use 3. I sometimes have one cup of coffee with it, but not always. I have coffee in the am, and thats it for the day, unless I pour a cup pre workout. I only use thermogenics with cardio, unless its night time cardio, meaning after dinner. I am a bodybuilder who eats every 2.5 hours training for a contest which is exhausting. I prep all my own meals, and am in the navy.

 

[BIG R]

I drink a pot of coffee in the morning, and another pot throughout the day.

I own a tavern, so I work out in the afternoons, and drink excessively about four nights a week. Ive been doing this for over fifteen years. I also use pro-hormones off and on. Yes, I realize.... But I tell you, drinking that much coffee seems to have done wonders for my liver. The doc says its fine.

It might be good genetics, it might be that working out an organ is like working out a muscle....a certain amount of abuse might make it stronger over time (if it doesnt break it), and/or it might be that that coffee is helping me out.

And its tasty too......

 

[PublicEnemy]

But I tell you, drinking that much coffee seems to have done wonders for my liver. The doc says its fine.

Coffee is also high in antioxidants...

 

[Cooky32]

Yesterday, I took 1 pack animal cuts prior to cardio, and drank a four shot iced americano during cardio....WOW I was HIGH as a kite. I drink 1 glass of wine daily for the most part. Sometimes, I have 1 glass of scotch. I do not have more during contest time.
The red wine is good for me. I usually have it with my beef meal. I use liver cleanse products at least once a year too. which helps keep it cleaned up.