PWO timing

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    PWO timing


    what i like to get in PWO is :
    about 40 grams whey mixed in 1 % milk
    water
    5 gm creatine mono, sometimes take with grape juice

    my question is this. i just read an article about post workout carbs, that they might be unneccessary, so should i keep the grape juice? im bulking right now, but clean and im not trying to gain too much. also, when should i take the creatine, before or after whey? im about 145, 5'8''

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    Quote Originally Posted by doingwork30 View Post
    what i like to get in PWO is :
    about 40 grams whey mixed in 1 % milk
    water
    5 gm creatine mono, sometimes take with grape juice

    my question is this. i just read an article about post workout carbs, that they might be unneccessary, so should i keep the grape juice? im bulking right now, but clean and im not trying to gain too much. also, when should i take the creatine, before or after whey? im about 145, 5'8''
    First of all milk and grapejuice are not he preferred sources by many.

    Stick with whey, oats and water for post workout then have another whole feed meal about an hour later. This will be more effective than drinking the milk and grape juice.

    Also, doesnt matter when you take in the creatine. You will read many different "studies" about timing the creatine. But the truth is, it doesnt matter on the timing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doingwork30 View Post
    what i like to get in PWO is :
    about 40 grams whey mixed in 1 % milk
    water
    5 gm creatine mono, sometimes take with grape juice

    my question is this. i just read an article about post workout carbs, that they might be unneccessary, so should i keep the grape juice? im bulking right now, but clean and im not trying to gain too much. also, when should i take the creatine, before or after whey? im about 145, 5'8''
    You need to know your body. If you're seeing "dirty" bulk, a.k.a. too much fat gain, you should cut back on the milk and grape juice. If they fit into your diet and are getting you the results you want then leave them in.

    IMO, grape juice and milk don't really offer much benefit in terms of macros. I'd rather use water to mix my powders and have a whole food meal to get the rest. But I love to eat. Some people have a hard time with the volume and, if ectomorphic, they may need the grape juice and milk in place of water.

    The creatine, you could take anytime. I personally mix creatine with my pre-bed shake and take it again in the A.M. - split 2.5g each dose. Absorption is better if the doses are split. They creatine is not excreted from the body that quickly. Its not like the PWO whey, which halts the spike in cortisol.
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    so protein, not protein and carb, or just carb, actually STOPS cortisol post workout? i was under the impression carb/ carb + protein did.


    also if i just do whey PWO,should i just wait about 30 or 40 minutes and then i can have a highh carb 'meal' ?
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    so protein, not protein and carb, or just carb, actually STOPS cortisol post workout? i was under the impression carb/ carb + protein did.


    also if i just do whey PWO,should i just wait about 30 or 40 minutes and then i can have a highh carb 'meal' ?
    My initial post was ambiguous. Cortisol levels with spike UNLESS you 1) replenish muscle glycogen quickly and 2) provide the amino acids needed to jump start muscular repair. However, I would NOT over-do the carbs if the goal is cutting. I also recommend a cortisol control, like lean xtreme, thruout a cutting cycle. I know its a bit pricey but I found it makes a big difference.
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    PWO carbs (I quoted myself from another thread here):

    "This whole "carbs aren't essential" thing is utter ignorance. Of course they are essential for bodybuilding purposes. Plain and simple. I mean, you can build muscle in a ketogenic state, but not with absolutely 0 carbs! You will still need enough fiber and trace carbs to provide the body with its minimum requirements and have SOME glycogen to train with.

    higher carb meals are great pre and post workout but the post workout sugar-shake/insulin spike thing is nonsense. Exercise causes skeletal muscle to become very receptive to glucose uptake to form glycogen and it maintains this sensitivity until glycogen levels are full. Although insulin helps, it is not necessary in excess quantities to facilitate this. Glycogen replenishment is a 24/7 process whether we like it or not. Only so much can be done at once and the hormonal/nervous system cascade occurring post-workout is in-congruent with immediately consuming a bunch of sugar. Most people end up fat doing this. Weight training causes a pulse in GH. Sugar causes a pulse in insulin. Insulin and GH are inversely related - Elevate insulin and you suppress GH. Some people with exceptional metabolisms may benefit from this post workout insulin spike, but I think a balanced meal, higher in carbs with a lean protein source is more effective and more beneficial soon after a workout. If a shake is easier to digest then this is advisable, however no need to take in 100g dextrose. Oats or something to that effect work just fine."

    As far as cortisol is concerned. Its good not to let cortisol levels get out of control but many have the wrong idea about cortisol. it is necessary to trigger the desirable responses of muscle recovery. Over-suppressing cortisol will cause problems like joint pain etc. Maintaining balanced, solid nutrition, sleeping well, keeping stress levels low and having a decent meal soon after a workout will keep cortisol doing what it needs to do and nothing in excess. Over-training is a great way to have unnecessary extra cortisol floating around.

    -Alex
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    go with honey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale

    Post Exercise Carbohydrates Are Counter Productive

    There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.1 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.

    Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives
    an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases,
    whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different
    from the response after exercise.

    Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake
    after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise, protein synthesis increases more than what normally occurs after exercise or
    AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.2

    In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.

    Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to fully compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.3

    Overemphasis on Post Exercise Carbohydrate Intake

    Because of the over-emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,4 and the effects these have on glucose transporters (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,5,6 there‘s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.

    The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you‘re following, including a low carb diet.7,8,9,10,11 However, that‘s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects. That‘s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.

    This statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition. As such, let‘s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.

    Muscle Glycogen and Insulin Action

    First of all it‘s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.12, 13 It‘s also known that bouts of resistance and endurance exercise result in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.14

    Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.15, 16 Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.17 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise- induced increase in insulin sensitivity.18

    Dissociation of Insulin‘s Effects on Glucose and Protein Metabolism

    Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority over the use of glucose for aerobic energy.

    However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel. By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body‘s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise. In essence by limiting glycogen synthesis you prolong the beneficial effects of insulin on protein synthesis and degradation and decrease the dampening effects of insulin on fatty acid breakdown and oxidation. At the same time although you delay glycogen synthesis you still maintain the capacity for rapidly increasing glycogen stores once you increase your carb intake.

    This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.19

    A recent study looked at the effects of post training carbohydrate deficit while keeping calorie intake constant, on insulin action and on fat oxidation. The study showed that carbohydrate deficit post exercise resulted in increased fat oxidation and enhanced insulin action. The enhanced insulin action was proportional to the degree of carbohydrate deficit – i.e. the further the post exercise carbs were decreased, the greater the insulin action.20

    Insulin and Nutrient Delivery to Skeletal Muscle

    As mentioned above in the discussion on insulin, we‘ve seen that one of insulin‘s actions is to increase microvascular (nutritive) perfusion of muscle, which is enhanced by exercise.21,22 This enhancement is crucial to maximizing the anabolic effects of exercise and targeted nutrition.

    For example a review looked at the effects of insulin on the vascular system and on nutrient delivery to muscle.23 The paper points out the fact that that there are two flow routes in muscle: one in intimate contact with the muscle cells (myocytes) and able to exchange nutrients and hormones freely and thus regarded as nutritive, and a second with essentially no contact with myocytes and regarded as nonnutritive (felt to provide blood to muscle connective tissue and adjacent fat cells, but not muscle cells).

    The point to take home here is that in the absence of increases in bulk flow to muscle, say after a training session, insulin may act to switch flow from nonnutritive to the nutritive route. This capillary recruitment results in an increase in nutritive blood flow so that muscles that have been stressed and are undergoing an adaptive response will have what they need to recover and grow.

    Summary

    This information is another piece of the anabolic puzzle. Putting it all together can give us ways to dramatically improve body composition – increase muscle mass and decrease body fat. In my view, the best way to do this is to figure out ways to increase the potent anabolic effects of insulin, both on nutritive delivery to the muscle cells and into the muscle cells, while at the same time minimizing the undesirable effects on body fat.

    One of these ways is to increase insulin in a pulsed manner along with an increase in amino acid availability, but minimal carbs, at the times when the body is primed for growth and repair, for example in that window of opportunity that exists for several hours after training. It would also be desirable to maintain elevated androgen levels, and increase growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) levels at the same time as insulin, in order to further enhance the anabolic effects of insulin and decrease, and actually reverse, the undesirable effects of insulin on fat metabolism.

    The bottom line is that the key to maximizing body composition, and to increase performance in fat adapted athletes is to keep carbs low and energy and protein intake high for several hours or even more after exercise.
    References:


    1
    Tipton, KD, Ferrando AA, Phillips SM, Doyle D Jr, Wolfe RR. Postexercise net protein
    synthesis in human muscle from orally administered amino acids. Am. J. Physiol.
    1999;276:E628-634.
    2
    Miller BF. Human muscle protein synthesis after physical activity and feeding. Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2007;35(2):50-5.
    3
    Garcia-Roves, P.M., D.H. Han, Z. Song, T.E. Jones, K.A. Hucker, and J.O. Holloszy.
    Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs the increase in muscle GLUT4 after
    exercise. Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. 2003;285:E729-E736,.
    4
    Ivy JL Goforth HW Jr Damon BM McCauley TR Parsons EC Price TB. Early postexercise
    muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate–protein supplement J Appl Physiol
    2002; 93 1337–1344.
    5
    Zorzano A, Palacin M, Guma A. Mechanisms regulating GLUT4 glucose transporter
    expression and glucose transport in skeletal muscle. Acta Physiol Scand. 2005;183(1):43-58.
    6
    Morifuji M, Sakai K, Sanbongi C, Sugiura K. Dietary whey protein increases liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels in exercise-trained rats. Br J Nutr. 2005;93(4):439-45.
    7
    Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise
    muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl
    Physiol. 2002;93(4):1337-44.
    8
    Carrithers JA, Williamson DL, Gallagher PM, Godard MP, Schulze KE, Trappe SW. Effects of postexercise carbohydrate-protein feedings on muscle glycogen restoration. J Appl Physiol.
    2000;88(6):1976-82.
    9
    Manninen AH. Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink. Br J Sports Med. 2006;40(11):900-5.
    10
    Kerksick C, Harvey T, Stout J, Campbell B, Wilborn C, Kreider R, Kalman D, Ziegenfuss T,
    Lopez H, Landis J, Ivy JL, Antonio J. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: nutrient timing. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2008 Oct 3;5:17.
    11
    Howarth KR, Moreau NA, Phillips SM, Gibala MJ. Coingestion of protein with carbohydrate
    during recovery from endurance exercise stimulates skeletal muscle protein synthesis in
    humans. J Appl Physiol. 2009 Apr;106(4):1394-402. Epub 2008 Nov 26.
    12
    CarteeGD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, and Holloszy JO.
    Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J
    Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989;256: E494–E499.
    13
    HenriksenEJ. Effects of acute exercise and exercise training on insulin resistance. J Appl
    Physiol 2002;93:788–796.
    14
    Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA. Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen
    resynthesis after resistance exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1998;84(3):890-6.
    15
    Ivy JL, Holloszy JO. Persistant increase in glucose uptake by rat skeletal muscle following
    exercise. Am J Physiol 1981;241:C200-C203.
    16
    Ren JM, Semenkovich CF, Gulve EA, Gao J, Holloszy JO. Exercise induces rapid increases
    in GLUT4 expression, glucose transport capacity, and insulin-stimulated glycogen storage in muscle. J Biol Chem. 1994 20;269(20):14396-401.
    17
    Derave W, Lund S, Holman G, Wojtaszewski J, Pedersen O, Richter EA. Contraction-
    stimulated muscle glucose transport and GLUT-4 surface content are dependent on glycogen content. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999;277: E1103–E1110.
    18
    Kawanaka K, Han D, Nolte LA, Hansen PA, Nakatani A, and Holloszy JO. Decreased insulin- stimulated GLUT-4 translocation in glycogen-supercompensated muscles of exercised rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1999;276: E907–E912.
    19
    Cartee GD, Young DA, Sleeper MD, Zierath J, Wallberg-Henriksson H, Holloszy JO.
    Prolonged increase in insulin-stimulated glucose transport in muscle after exercise. Am J
    Physiol Endocrinol Metab 1989;256:E494–E499.
    20
    Holtz KA, Stephens BR, Sharoff CG, Chipkin SR, Braun B. The effect of carbohydrate
    availability following exercise on whole-body insulin action. Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2008
    Oct;33(5):946-56.
    21
    Dela F, Larsen JJ, Mikines KJ, Ploug T, Petersen LN, Galbo H 1995 Insulin-stimulated muscle glucose clearance in patients with NIDDM. Effects of one-legged physical training. Diabetes
    44:1010-1020.
    22
    Hardin DS, Azzarelli B, Edwards J, Wigglesworth J, Maianu L, Brechtel G, Johnson A, Baron A, Garvey WT. Mechanisms of enhanced insulin sensitivity in endurance-trained athletes: effects on blood flow and differential expression of GLUT 4 in skeletal muscles. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1995; 80:2437-2446.
    23
    Clark MG, Wallis MG, Barrett EJ, Vincent MA, Richards SM, Clerk LH, Rattigan S. Blood flow and muscle metabolism: a focus on insulin action. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab.
    2003;284(2):E241-58.
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    ^^Lol. The debate continues. For every argument one way there is an argument the other way.
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    the only question i have would be:

    is it not true that some sort of carbohydrate is necessary to shuttle creatine to the muscles?? i ask this because, i have been using creatine mono mixed with whey protein in my post workout shake with the addition of 1/2 to a full scoop of waxy maize. i prefer however not to consume any sort of carbohydrates post workout, although i do not want this to affect the absorption of the creatine mono. i guess i am wondering if the addition of waxy maize is truly necessary or if it can be omitted? will the creatine still absorb properly without it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Brown View Post
    the only question i have would be:

    is it not true that some sort of carbohydrate is necessary to shuttle creatine to the muscles?? i ask this because, i have been using creatine mono mixed with whey protein in my post workout shake with the addition of 1/2 to a full scoop of waxy maize. i prefer however not to consume any sort of carbohydrates post workout, although i do not want this to affect the absorption of the creatine mono. i guess i am wondering if the addition of waxy maize is truly necessary or if it can be omitted? will the creatine still absorb properly without it?
    Your muscles should already be saturated and consuming no carbohydrates with your protein/creatine shake is not going to reduce your muscles saturation. I would not worry about that.

    I have gone several months with post workout dextrose and without post workout dextrose and saw no additional benefits except for gaining weight. I am not going to lie, I tend to use dextrose time to time while trying to put on some size, but I think it is more of a psychological thing. As of right now I prefer to stay away from the dextrose, since I am trying to lose this pesky stomach.

    Question

    Has anyone grinded up some whole oats in a food processor and mixed the oats in their protein shakes for post workout?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyIOSOS View Post
    Has anyone grinded up some whole oats in a food processor and mixed the oats in their protein shakes for post workout?
    I do, but I use a blender... same diff. Anyway, I put 2 scoops (80 grams) in my preworkout shake and 2 in my pwo shake. The oat flour definitely digests. I tried working out without a shake just to see, blood sugar plummeted half way through and the lifts were no where near par.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyChemist View Post
    ^^Lol. The debate continues. For every argument one way there is an argument the other way.
    There is no shortage of "opinions" without anything to back them up.
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    That article has some valid arguments. Lately I haven't been using carbs post workout and I don't really notice that much of a difference as compared to when I was taking dextrose after a workout. I had good results during the time I was taking carbs post workout, but I suppose you could argue that my results would have been the same or better had I not been taking any carbs.
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    The good Dr. does give us this juicy nugget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Di Pasquale
    The morning following training is the best time to increase your carb intake if your goal is to maximize muscle and hepatic glycogen levels.
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    I think that what people have lost sight of is that what the body needs is a source of (1) aminos as materials for repair and (2) energy to fuel that repair.

    For (1) you need a protein source (preferably complete) and for (2) You could use carbs, fats, or more protein since all can be used for energy. If you are doing marathon workouts (which you shouldn't) and if you are neglecting pre-workout nutrition (which you shouldn't) then yes you can make a case for the necessity of faster carbs post workout.

    What is more important is that you have a rough idea of how much of (1) and (2) that you need for your goals (i.e. bulking or cutting).
  

  
 

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