Looking at doing a Keto diet...

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    Smile Looking at doing a Keto diet...


    Hi Guys... I've spent the whole day or so reading up on the keto diet and it looks quite appealing and am thinking of starting it possibly at the end of this week. There's not as much info out there as I hope in terms of peoples opinions or proper journals/logs, etc so the only info I could get was your regular articles on tnation and bb.com

    I am wondering who out there on this forum has tried this Keto diet, and what results did you achieve? Successful? not successful?

    I am currently 215lbs @ 18% bodyfat and looking to tone down to something quite more comfortable. Will be working off the mirror and not so much the scale.

    I am thinking of going along the lines of 2365cals per day (my non-lean bodyweight of 215x11 - got this from Christian Thibaudeau's article on t-nation), and with a 70/30 ratio that would end up being 1655cals of fat from 184g of fat and 710cals from protein from 178g per day. split this into 5-6 meals a day. I believe this should get me into ketosis. Hopefully my carbs will be kept under ~30g daily.

    I'll have the 1 carb-up day from late friday through to late saturday, which will be 216grams of protein, 2160-2590grams of carbs (not sure exactly, im working off a calculator on an article which tells me for my weight to get that much), and also a maximum of 98grams of fat for that day (I'll try keep it less... under 80)

    Does this sound right to anyone else out there who has done this diet and is familiar with these calculations?

    My questions are this:

    HIIT cardio (sprinting/cycling) 2-3x (25min sessions) a week or medium intensity cardio? A little confusion here... HIIT is generally better, more effective and better at not burning muscle... but I've read generally people suggesting NOT to do HIIT on a keto diet due to the depleted glycogen in the muscles? tho some places I've read say its ok 2-3x a week... (I am planning on lifting 3x a week as well, low volume - lots of compound lifts)

    Whey Protein shakes pre/post weight-lifting sessions... take or not to take? If so, before or after? I read they can cause insulin spikes due to the protein or due to the small amount of carbs associated with them? I'm not sure about this one? I am under the presumption to not... consume any carbs pre/post workout as you generally would when not on this diet...

    Also, I have some BCAA left over which I'll use up to ensure muscle retention, I think from memory 10g before and 10g after cardio sessions was a recommendation I was given a while back, with maybe another 10g before bed, (lifting days im not too sure? non lifting days maybe 10g in morning and 10g before bed?). I know a lot of people have differing opinions on how much to take here so let me know thoughts.

    Also, a lot of articles talk about taking an ECA stack to boost the fat burn (its legal where I live and relatively cheap), and I have briefly read up on this and it does look appealing... but am not 100% sure whether its needed / worth it... so wondering on opinions

    That's about it for the Q's for now, hopefully someone out there has experience with the keto diet and can assist me a little here! There's not a lot of help with the search button as most journals and threads started by people in regards to keto went dead.

    Also if anyone here has lists of good foods or recipes that help one stay on this high fat/protein and no carb diet, let me know! anything to make it easier

    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by soseg View Post
    I am wondering who out there on this forum has tried this Keto diet, and what results did you achieve? Successful? not successful?

    it definately works for losing fat, the only downside is that your muscles will look flatter than usual due to a lack of glycogen.


    I'll have the 1 carb-up day from late friday through to late saturday, which will be 216grams of protein, 2160-2590grams of carbs

    why? i would recommend just one cheat meal last meal of one day per week a whole carb up day is not ideal for FAT LOSS


    HIIT cardio (sprinting/cycling) 2-3x (25min sessions) a week or medium intensity cardio? A little confusion here... HIIT is generally better, more effective and better at not burning muscle... but I've read generally people suggesting NOT to do HIIT on a keto diet due to the depleted glycogen in the muscles?

    this is correct, no glycogen HIIT will burn muscle. The best way to do cardio on a keto diet is keeping your hr @ 120 - 130bpm first thing in the am, or immediately after weight training.

    Whey Protein shakes pre/post weight-lifting sessions... take or not to take?

    protien shake AFTER weight training, assuming there are very few carbs u will be fine. take with maybe a tbsp of PB

    If so, before or after? I read they can cause insulin spikes due to the protein or due to the small amount of carbs associated with them?

    Thats only true if your taking in alot of carbs my whey has 6g of carbs per shake and it did not bump me out of ketosis.

    I'm not sure about this one? I am under the presumption to not... consume any carbs pre/post workout as you generally would when not on this diet...

    keto = no carbs @ all!!

    responses are in bold.
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    All the keto articles suggest 1 whole day devoted to carbing up, as you really need to refill glycogen stores after depleting them on that last workout (friday)... however, if done properly, it wont (and hasnt according to other forum posts ive read) affect fat gains (had it somewhere in an article... cbf looking for it now)

    you said protein shake after weight training... ok... none before? and whats PB?
    what about before/after cardio?
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    yeah i have heard of the whole day carb up approach also. In my opinion this is too many carbs and unless you are very carefull u will spill over. If you were bulking i would say go for it cuz who cares about a lil fat gain, but since ur main goal is cutting iw ould use a more moderate approach and do just one cheat meal per week and have whatever u want, just make sure it has plenty of carbs. I have never done a whole day carb up so maybe someone who has can give a little more info for u...


    protien shake after, PB = peanut better, good source of healthy fats, that will give u energy. and no shake befroe just have your normal food meal about an 1 hr before training.
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    if you want to do HIIT, i think the best way if do it is for days 1,2, and if you can, 3, after your carbup day ( assuming you are doing CKD ).

    you will burn out your glycogen that you filled up during your carb up, get to keto faster, and probably burn some fat too.


    some people have a problem doing HIIT a few days in a row though, so if you can, just once or twice. but like ccapone said, after you are in ketosis ( days 4,5, and up, ) just do Low intensity cardio.


    if you'd rather take your carbs in different forms than peanut butter, just throw a tablespoon of olive oil in your post workout shake, and save your day's carbs for psyllium, broccoli, spinach or whatever.

    honestly, im sick of the keto diet and im just gonna do clenviscerate and 1500cals a day.
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    yeh i agree with soon about the HIIT after the carb up days.. 3 might be pushing it but try it and see how it goes..


    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    honestly, im sick of the keto diet and im just gonna do clenviscerate and 1500cals a day.

    soon, u were all about the keto diet!! what happend?? haha

    whats clenviscerate, ive been hearing about it but have no idea what it is.
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    i have been running it for the last 6 weeks or so and have lost a considerable amount of fat BUT I had a huge amount to shift tbh

    Anyway I have been carbing up for an entire day ideally after training as the body takes up more carbs after training

    The idea of the carb up is to give the metabolism a kick up the ass as well as (imo) to protect your sanity. I have been on it for periods of 2 weeks and trust me towards the end of that you feel like crap!

    As for ECA all the reading I have done around the diet says its a bit of a no no on this diet as the combo of no carbs and stimulants can have a detrimental effect on cortisol levels

    BUT i am by no means an expert!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drago86 View Post
    i have been running it for the last 6 weeks or so and have lost a considerable amount of fat BUT I had a huge amount to shift tbh

    Anyway I have been carbing up for an entire day ideally after training as the body takes up more carbs after training

    The idea of the carb up is to give the metabolism a kick up the ass as well as (imo) to protect your sanity. I have been on it for periods of 2 weeks and trust me towards the end of that you feel like crap!

    As for ECA all the reading I have done around the diet says its a bit of a no no on this diet as the combo of no carbs and stimulants can have a detrimental effect on cortisol levels

    BUT i am by no means an expert!

    you're nuts bro. i wouldnt have been able to function without having eca and no carbs.
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    My questions are this:

    HIIT cardio (sprinting/cycling) 2-3x (25min sessions) a week or medium intensity cardio? A little confusion here... HIIT is generally better, more effective and better at not burning muscle... but I've read generally people suggesting NOT to do HIIT on a keto diet due to the depleted glycogen in the muscles? tho some places I've read say its ok 2-3x a week... (I am planning on lifting 3x a week as well, low volume - lots of compound lifts)

    Whey Protein shakes pre/post weight-lifting sessions... take or not to take? If so, before or after? I read they can cause insulin spikes due to the protein or due to the small amount of carbs associated with them? I'm not sure about this one? I am under the presumption to not... consume any carbs pre/post workout as you generally would when not on this diet...

    Also, I have some BCAA left over which I'll use up to ensure muscle retention, I think from memory 10g before and 10g after cardio sessions was a recommendation I was given a while back, with maybe another 10g before bed, (lifting days im not too sure? non lifting days maybe 10g in morning and 10g before bed?). I know a lot of people have differing opinions on how much to take here so let me know thoughts.

    Also, a lot of articles talk about taking an ECA stack to boost the fat burn (its legal where I live and relatively cheap), and I have briefly read up on this and it does look appealing... but am not 100% sure whether its needed / worth it... so wondering on opinions

    That's about it for the Q's for now, hopefully someone out there has experience with the keto diet and can assist me a little here! There's not a lot of help with the search button as most journals and threads started by people in regards to keto went dead.

    Also if anyone here has lists of good foods or recipes that help one stay on this high fat/protein and no carb diet, let me know! anything to make it easier

    thanks
    I've done keto diets for a while now, if theres any specific questions you need expanded on, just ask.

    1. You can do either. Yes you can do HIIT. What does 1 session of HIIT account for in terms of intensive excercise, 150 seconds worth of explosive force? If you feel like it will eat muscle you can concentrate your carbohydrate intake post HIIT. yes, CKD diets, which you are thinking about do use carbs. 20-30 carbs a day, you get in fiber, fill in nutrients and even 20-30 carbs on a ckd diet is protective for your muscles. To put it briefly, the brain requires around 100 grams of glucose a day. In ketosis your body will supply up to 70~ percent of that requirement with ketones, the other 20-30 need to be synthesized. Getting in 20-30 grams supplies your brain and body with glucose so muscle tissue is spared from being broken down.

    2. Increases in insulin will decrease how many ketones are formed and ultimately how much fat is burned. With that in mind a post workout shake will have some effect on insulin levels, but as to how much I can't say. As for the BCAAs I would limit just how many you take.

    3. Yes, if you know how to run an ECA stack go ahead. But wait 2-3 weeks before you do so you well establish ketosis. Some people can get knocked out of ketosis by stimulants, if you are deeper in ketosis you that chance mighty decrease.

    4. http://stronglifts.com/the-ultimate-...s-you-can-eat/
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    1. You can do either. Yes you can do HIIT.
    ehhh i wouldnt on a keto diet. LOW intensity cardio (hr at 120 - 130bpm) is perfered for low carb diets. HIIT is too intense and if u are doing a stict keto diet than you wont have any carbs PWO and u will eat muscle. If u are taking in carbs PWO than your not doing a keto diet and wont form ketones.
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    after all that great info all i can say is if you need more fat try heavy whipping cream. it is 5 grams of fat per tbls. and no carbs or protien. i add it to my protien shakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccapone1153 View Post
    ehhh i wouldnt on a keto diet. LOW intensity cardio (hr at 120 - 130bpm) is perfered for low carb diets. HIIT is too intense and if u are doing a stict keto diet than you wont have any carbs PWO and u will eat muscle. If u are taking in carbs PWO than your not doing a keto diet and wont form ketones.
    He mentioned doing a 1 day carb load, that's CKD and yes you will form ketones with limited carb intake during the day. And taking in carbs post workout is part of the targeted ketogenic dieting regimine to keep glycogen levels at a steady rate over the week instead of depleting and restoring them. I don't see how HIIT is too intense, a 1 hour workout is more strenuous than 10-15 sprinting intervals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    He mentioned doing a 1 day carb load, that's CKD and yes you will form ketones with limited carb intake during the day. And taking in carbs post workout is part of the targeted ketogenic dieting regimine to keep glycogen levels at a steady rate over the week instead of depleting and restoring them. I don't see how HIIT is too intense, a 1 hour workout is more strenuous than 10-15 sprinting intervals.


    if he is doing a carb reload it would be ok to do HIIT days 1, 2, and maybe 3 after the reload. Taking in Carbs post workout makes no sense to me its not enough to restore glycogen fully.. and cause a lack of ketosis... how does this make sense??? whats the reasoning behind it?? everything ive read about keto diets says to avoid carbs altogether minus a refeed meal or reload day...
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    hm..
    I was under the presumption HIIT wouldnt eat muscle if you kept it within ~16 - 20minutes... post carbs or not?

    I'll see... i might just do 3 or so days a week of 30min moderate cardio... wouldnt that do me good in terms of depleting glycogen stores and putting me into ketosis faster for example after a carb up day?

    ECA stack I cant get here in Australia - so I'm out of ideas unless I have to make some type of ephedrine mix myself... I gotta read around on what guys do here

    Limit BCAAs... why? They shouldnt take you out of ketosis? theres no carbs etc? infact, wouldnt the leucine (50% of it is leucine) help you get into ketosis faster?

    read page 2 of this:
    http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...nstant_ketosis
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccapone1153 View Post
    if he is doing a carb reload it would be ok to do HIIT days 1, 2, and maybe 3 after the reload. Taking in Carbs post workout makes no sense to me its not enough to restore glycogen fully.. and cause a lack of ketosis... how does this make sense??? whats the reasoning behind it?? everything ive read about keto diets says to avoid carbs altogether minus a refeed meal or reload day...
    Which keto diet books or diets from a specific source have you read that specifically say 0 carbs besides the refeed or reload. Off the top of my head

    The Ketogenic Diet - Lyle McDonald CKD suggests 20-30 carbs per a day aside from the carb load, TKD suggests injesting X amount of carbs around your workout to bring glycogen levels to a certain stage.

    The Anabolic Diet, Anabolic Solution for bodybuilders/powerlifters - Mauro Di Pasquale - CKD 20-30 carbs a day aside from the carb load

    There are several reasons to injest carbohydrates during non carb load days. As I mentioned before, it supplies the body with fiber and nutrients as well as being muscle sparing.

    Relegating carb intake to postworkout would help to shuttle carbs into the muscle as glycogen, no it wouldn't fully raise the levels of glycogen, it would however raise them to protect against muscle being broken down for glucose. Some people that do CKD diets also do a mid week carb up of 100 grams of carbohydrates post workout to accomplish this.

    It doesn't cause a lack of ketosis when a small amount of carbohydrates are consumed during the day. It can slow down the burning of fat for energy if taken all at once, but that lasts a few hours then normal levels of fat burning are resumed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    Which keto diet books or diets from a specific source have you read that specifically say 0 carbs besides the refeed or reload. Off the top of my head

    The Ketogenic Diet - Lyle McDonald CKD suggests 20-30 carbs per a day aside from the carb load, TKD suggests injesting X amount of carbs around your workout to bring glycogen levels to a certain stage.

    The Anabolic Diet, Anabolic Solution for bodybuilders/powerlifters - Mauro Di Pasquale - CKD 20-30 carbs a day aside from the carb load

    There are several reasons to injest carbohydrates during non carb load days. As I mentioned before, it supplies the body with fiber and nutrients as well as being muscle sparing.

    Relegating carb intake to postworkout would help to shuttle carbs into the muscle as glycogen, no it wouldn't fully raise the levels of glycogen, it would however raise them to protect against muscle being broken down for glucose. Some people that do CKD diets also do a mid week carb up of 100 grams of carbohydrates post workout to accomplish this.

    It doesn't cause a lack of ketosis when a small amount of carbohydrates are consumed during the day. It can slow down the burning of fat for energy if taken all at once, but that lasts a few hours then normal levels of fat burning are resumed.
    So carbs before and after working out are fine? and not counted towards the daily total? if so... what would you recommend one eat, and how much pre/post?
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    and so i can consume 100 carbs pre and post workout, then do 30 to 40 carbs ( spinach, broccoli, psyllium, etc ) to maintain a TKD.


    however, there is no refeed with TKD , is there? being that you have carbs every day.....
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    and so i can consume 100 carbs pre and post workout, then do 30 to 40 carbs ( spinach, broccoli, psyllium, etc ) to maintain a TKD.


    however, there is no refeed with TKD , is there? being that you have carbs every day.....
    eating that many carbs will not allow you to stay in ketosis! on workout days you can try squeezing buy with 50 maybe 60g carbs but have them be fast digesting and while or right after workout
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    obviously you cant stay in ketosis swallowing down 100carbs pre and post workout. thats not what i asked. in TKD, you take carbs pre and post workout. it is called ketogenic because the rest of the day you are eating fats and proteins and no carbs. you arent in ketosis , that is just what its called.
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soseg View Post
    hm..
    I was under the presumption HIIT wouldnt eat muscle if you kept it within ~16 - 20minutes... post carbs or not?

    I'll see... i might just do 3 or so days a week of 30min moderate cardio... wouldnt that do me good in terms of depleting glycogen stores and putting me into ketosis faster for example after a carb up day?

    ECA stack I cant get here in Australia - so I'm out of ideas unless I have to make some type of ephedrine mix myself... I gotta read around on what guys do here

    Limit BCAAs... why? They shouldnt take you out of ketosis? theres no carbs etc? infact, wouldnt the leucine (50% of it is leucine) help you get into ketosis faster?

    read page 2 of this:
    http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...nstant_ketosis
    In your original post you said the ECA stack was legal and cheap, but if you don't want to do it you don't have to.

    As for HIIT and LISS cardio, they have to be looked at in a slightly different context while in a ketogenic diet. In a ketogenic state the body tries to preserve glycogen, in situations where you're doing cardio with a heart rate under 75 percent even with low carbohydrate intake your ability should remain the same or improve. As for HIIT it does drain glycogen, if you were to have low levels it would require glucose, even if its a small amount.

    As for the BCAA's Valine is glucogenic, isoleucine can be glucogenic and both have antiketogenic properties. I would just not go too heavy with the BCAAs beyond what you think is necessary.

    Yes there are ketogenic propeties with leucine but that article is a bit archaic in nature when it comes to low carb dieting and speaks of leucine on its own not mixed. From what i've read from Lyle McDonalds work, filling liver glycogen can stall ketosis from happening, not only that it increases the chance for fructose spillover into fat and since fructose has minimal insulin effect its not a prime choice for carb intake, especially during the carb load.

    As for getting back into ketosis, if you limit yourself to 24-48 hours in your carb load you'll be back in ketosis much sooner, there are guys on here and through some of the threads that test positive for ketones in their urine the day after their carb load.

    Quote Originally Posted by soseg View Post
    So carbs before and after working out are fine? and not counted towards the daily total? if so... what would you recommend one eat, and how much pre/post?
    If you're doing a TKD then you ingest 5 grams of carbohydrates per every two sets for a workout depending on relative intensity. If your going a little harder you would take in a little more. You take it preworkout, if you exceed 50 grams you can split it pre and post workout.


    And just a side bar note.

    Ketosis is the state where your body has an accumulation of ketone bodies caused by being a ketogenic or fat burning state. Ketosis is a side effect of being in a ketogenic state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    obviously you cant stay in ketosis swallowing down 100carbs pre and post workout. thats not what i asked. in TKD, you take carbs pre and post workout. it is called ketogenic because the rest of the day you are eating fats and proteins and no carbs. you arent in ketosis , that is just what its called.
    That's not correct. You do achieve ketosis in a TKD, and its called the TKD because the carbs are focused around workouts to accomplish a few things, raising blood glucose to enhance the results of the workout and raising glycogen levels to make subsequent workouts higher quality due to availability of glycogen in the muscle.

    If someone isn't acheiving ketosis during a TKD then they have too high of a carbohydrate intake. As for carb loads, you can carb load but its not a usual thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post



    If you're doing a TKD then you ingest 5 grams of carbohydrates per every two sets for a workout depending on relative intensity. If your going a little harder you would take in a little more. You take it preworkout, if you exceed 50 grams you can split it pre and post workout.


    And just a side bar note.

    Ketosis is the state where your body has an accumulation of ketone bodies caused by being a ketogenic or fat burning state. Ketosis is a side effect of being in a ketogenic state.

    so you're saying if i do 10 sets on chest day, i should take 25 carbs in pre workout, and no carbs after? and i will still maintain ketosis?
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    There are several reasons to injest carbohydrates during non carb load days. As I mentioned before, it supplies the body with fiber and nutrients as well as being muscle sparing.
    i was talking starchy carbs, green veggies are fine and should be included with every meal
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    Quote Originally Posted by soontobbeast View Post
    so you're saying if i do 10 sets on chest day, i should take 25 carbs in pre workout, and no carbs after? and i will still maintain ketosis?
    Yes. 25-50 carbs preworkout is the best case scenario to use the carbs, after you workout you will reestablish ketosis. The carbs will stall ketosis but allow for a better workout. If you take the carbs post workout you will stall ketosis for a few hours post workout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    Yes. 25-50 carbs preworkout is the best case scenario to use the carbs, after you workout you will reestablish ketosis. The carbs will stall ketosis but allow for a better workout. If you take the carbs post workout you will stall ketosis for a few hours post workout.

    ok so using this style, i could potentially go 10-12 days without a refeed.

    would the refeeds still maintain the same macros as a typical CKD

    i.e. 70/15/15 - 120g protein, 50g fat, 600 or so carbs?

    i think i found my new diet for the next 45 days of cutting if this is true
    For me, the action IS the juice.
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    hmmm ok
    ill cut the BCAAs then.
    Yea sorry about the ECA stack. They're illegal here (ephedrine) in Australia... even tho a few supp stores sell some ECA but I think its a cheap rip off replaced with guarana... I'll see in 2+ weeks time how the results are, then I'll find out what guys out here use as an ephedrine substitute...
  

  
 

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