what is considered an ideal muscle/fat gain?

[ccapone1153]

ok so as ive been reading on these forums, everyone is concerned with gaining lean muscle while minimizing fat gain; which makes sense. so now i am wondering what is considered a good muscle to fat gain ratio.

for example i competed in june @150lbs @ 3% bf, today i weigh 179lbs @ 9% bf.. would that be considered gaining alot of fat too quickly? hoiw long would it ideally take for bf to raise 1% ?

 

[tnubs]

considering you did gain 29 pounds... and 11.6 pounds of it was fat, you be the judge. thats still 17.4 pounds of muscle gained in like 2 months, some of it will be water too. im betting probably a good chunk of it is water if you got down to 3% bf im sure u were eating almost no carbs and seeing how fast you gained weight. i would shoot for a lower ratio. maybe next time up your cals a little slower. it takes longer but there will be less fat gain

 

[ccapone1153]

how did u come to the conclusion that i gained 11.6 lbs of fat?

 

[ccapone1153]

and yeah i definately did jump right into a ton of cals, but i couldnt help it i was STARVING all the time for the first month lol

 

[tnubs]

if you have 3% bodyfat at 150lbs... 0.03x150 = 4.5 pounds of fat
and 9% bodyfat at 179... 0.09x179 = 16.11 pounds of fat

difference is fat gained

 

[ccapone1153]

ahh i knew it was going to be somethign real basic like that, just couldnt see it lol

 

[EasyEJL]

but that isn't normal gains, you can't consider starting at 3% something normal. if you maintain your 9% year round other than for contests, then the question is "If I gain 10lbs of muscle, how much fat should I expect to gain with it".

 

[tnubs]

but that isn't normal gains, you can't consider starting at 3% something normal. if you maintain your 9% year round other than for contests, then the question is "If I gain 10lbs of muscle, how much fat should I expect to gain with it".

ya, thats true. usually when u get down that low you explode up cuz your body is starved

 

[ccapone1153]

think its possible to maintain a 9% bf without having to go thru bulking/cutting cycles? i mean everytime you gain muscle u have to gain fat so how could you possibly maintian @ 9% for a year.. i feel like over time it would still go up, maybe slower than it has but still...

 

[EasyEJL]

not if you do it right, it doesnt have to go up while you gain muscle

 

[ccapone1153]

not if you do it right, it doesnt have to go up while you gain muscle

how is that possible

 

[ccapone1153]

i used the harris benidict revised equation to figure out my total caloric expenditure, i then came up with a pretty good diet plan which i have been following to the T with a weekly cheat on sundays. Now im in the off season so i cheat a little more exessively than i should, but its still only for the span of a few hrs once a week so i feel like that hsouldnt have that negative an effect on my bf% and still it seems to be rising to quickly for my taste.

 

[DreamWeaver]

Your situation is very unique in that you were in a starved state. You need to go back up to a normal range in order to continue to go about your business. Just don't gain any more fat from here. With modern herbal supplementation it is very possible .. to lose fat while you gain muscle. You could continue to bulk up and ease down to 7-8 % thus making it very easy for your next comp.

 

[EasyEJL]

how is that possible

well, at 9% bf you have basically 10 pounds of non-fat to 1lb of fat. so if you gained 11lbs and only 1 was fat you'd maintain 9%. you just need really strict control of diet, and then too diet timing and macro cycling becomes critical as you'll have to be within a very small margin of error.

 

[DreamWeaver]

well, at 9% bf you have basically 10 pounds of non-fat to 1lb of fat. so if you gained 11lbs and only 1 was fat you'd maintain 9%. you just need really strict control of diet, and then too diet timing and macro cycling becomes critical as you'll have to be within a very small margin of error.

Correct by remaining in an anabolic state you can still burn fat. Your weight won't fluctuate much but you will get leaner while you gain muscle. I think most of us need to be around 10% for this to be more efficient but I can't really say for sure as I never tried to get lower this way. I am trying to see how low I can go using this method however. Only time will tell.

 

[ccapone1153]

you just need really strict control of diet, and then too diet timing and macro cycling becomes critical as you'll have to be within a very small margin of error.

if i post my current diet and macro breakdown will you help me with this? i am very serious and do not deviete from my diet except for my cheat meal like i said.

 

[EasyEJL]

sure. remember that over time you have to continuously tune total calories cause if you add 5lbs of lean mass your maintenance changes. But the basic macro breakdowns and meal proportioning relative to time of day stays the same, its just exactly how many cals per meal is targeted that changes (and not by much)

 

[ccapone1153]

remember that over time you have to continuously tune total calories cause if you add 5lbs of lean mass your maintenance changes. But the basic macro breakdowns and meal proportioning relative to time of day stays the same, its just exactly how many cals per meal is targeted that changes (and not by much)

thanks for the help, i will post the diet in full when i get home from work prob around 7pm

yeah i figured as much, we can get to that when the time calls for it but for right now i need to stop gaining fat lol

 

[Coachese]

This may sound harsh, but, meh, it's teh webz.

Wouldn't one assume that if a person COULD diet down to 3% that he'd already know a lot of the answers to the questions in this thread? I mean, some of this (like knowing how many lbs of fat = a certain % of BF) is like basic foundation-type stuff. No?

Or could it be the case that AAS use allows people to do things to their body even without having that foundation of basics under their belt...?

 

[DreamWeaver]

Or could it be the case that AAS use allows people to do things to their body even without having that foundation of basics under their belt...?

This something I have always suspected.. seeing guys in the gym with very good physiques work out, and seem to be completely clueless as to how to train. Not saying this is the case here but a lot of guys will know what I speak of. How many times have you seen a known pro bodybuilder doing horrible form on some video and think if I did that I would be getting nowhere.

Again I am making no assumptions about anybody in this thread.

 

[ccapone1153]

This may sound harsh, but, meh, it's teh webz.

Wouldn't one assume that if a person COULD diet down to 3% that he'd already know a lot of the answers to the questions in this thread? I mean, some of this (like knowing how many lbs of fat = a certain % of BF) is like basic foundation-type stuff. No?

Or could it be the case that AAS use allows people to do things to their body even without having that foundation of basics under their belt...?

i take great offense to this post.

dieting is easy, less cals + more cardio = fat loss. gainning weight is easy, eat more than u burn. the hard part is gaining LEAN MUSCLE with minimal fat gain. and more knowledge never hurt anyone. you can ALWAYS learn.

Just because YOU cant change your body dont use that AAS bullsh!t to undermine my hard work. I am in the gym training 5 days a week and eat a perfect clean diet. i do not drink, i do not party. I put bodybuilding before anything in my life. Get on my level and maybe ull see some results.

please do not bring this type of negativity to any of my threads in the future. if u dont have anythign positive or helpful to say then shut the F*ck up.

 

[ccapone1153]

. How many times have you seen a known pro bodybuilder doing horrible form on some video and think if I did that I would be getting nowhere.

you become a pro after years and years of hard work and dedication. they do not use bad form for no reason, if u have ever listened to any of them talk about why they train the way they do this would be obvious.

 

[DreamWeaver]

you become a pro after years and years of hard work and dedication. they do not use bad form for no reason, if u have ever listened to any of them talk about why they train the way they do this would be obvious.

Yehh sometimes that's the case I'm sure ... I'll take the word of a natural any day. We can't afford to make the mistakes drug users do that's the main point. If you train Naturally for 7-10 years before you start using and had good success then yes your probably right. Drug use skews your results and your reactions. That's why I never listen to people who use them, we have to treat them like 2 different sports. There are similarities but the differences are very profound.

Oh and just because your a pro bodybuilder doesn't mean you've cornered the market on hard work and dedication. There are many, many hard working athletes that simply did not choose that route.

It's true though I have confronted people in the gym that don't know what they're doing but still have been successful due to drug use.

 

[Coachese]

i take great offense to this post.

dieting is easy, less cals + more cardio = fat loss. gainning weight is easy, eat more than u burn. the hard part is gaining LEAN MUSCLE with minimal fat gain. and more knowledge never hurt anyone. you can ALWAYS learn.

Just because YOU cant change your body dont use that AAS bullsh!t to undermine my hard work. I am in the gym training 5 days a week and eat a perfect clean diet. i do not drink, i do not party. I put bodybuilding before anything in my life. Get on my level and maybe ull see some results.

please do not bring this type of negativity to any of my threads in the future. if u dont have anythign positive or helpful to say then shut the F*ck up.

Seriosuly? I was just asking a question in general.....I wasn't undermining your, um....training.

Chillaxe bro - maybe focus your thoughts on answering the question I posed from YOUR perspective? That would help lots of other people out.

 

[ccapone1153]

Wouldn't one assume that if a person COULD diet down to 3% that he'd already know a lot of the answers to the questions in this thread?


Or could it be the case that AAS use allows people to do things to their body even without having that foundation of basics under their belt...?

that sounds pretty directed towards me. but if u say so. and to answer your question AAS wold allow people to do things while ON, but all gains would quickly be lost as soon as they came off. so my answer is no.

 

[ccapone1153]

NOW BACK TO THE MAIN POINT OF THIS THREAD:

EASY, this is what my diet is looking like:


everything is listed in cals g/ of fat, g/carbs and g/protein
Omega 3 eggs (L) 5 whole 350 22.5 5 30
Regular Eggs (L) 4 whites 72 0.5 1.7 15
Oatmeal 3 oz 318.75 6.4 57.4 10.7
Mac nut oil 1 TBSP 120 13.8
Macro Greens 1 serving 50 1 6 3g
TOTAL 861 37 58 45

MEAL 2
Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 52
Carolina brown rice 5 oz 156.5 1.8 32 5
TOTAL 322 0 32 52

LIFT@ 11:30 - 1230

MEAL 3 (PWO)
Optimum Whey Protein 240 2 8 48
Bananas 8 oz ( 2) 7" 177 1 52 2
TOTAL 417 0 52 48

MEAL 4
Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 39
White Potatoe 7 oz 184 0 42 5.5
Udo's Oil 1 Tbsp 120 14 0 0
Almonds 1 oz 170 15 5 7
TOTAL 639 29 42 52

MEAL 5
Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 39
Carolina brown rice 4 oz 125 1.8 26 5
Extra Virgin Olive Oil1 Tbsp 120 14 0 0
Cashews 1 oz 160 14 6 5
Brocolli
TOTAL 570 28 26 39

MEAL 6
Sirloin Steak 8 oz 485 32 0 45
Sweet Potatoe 4 oz 102 0 23 4
Brocollii
Miracle Reds 1 35 1 5 1
TOTAL 587 32 23 45

Meal 7 Cottage Cheese 4 oz 88 0 6 13
10:15 Tuna Fish 2 oz 60 0 14
140 27

GRAND TOTAL 3536 126 233 282
cals fat carbs protein
Cals per: 1134 932 1128


-------

now u will notice that i only add up COMPLETE SOURCES of each macro nutrient. for example i dont cout protein from carbs.

i just cut back on carbs by 40g a day this week, but what do u think?

 

[EasyEJL]

now u will notice that i only add up COMPLETE SOURCES of each macro nutrient. for example i dont cout protein from carbs.

i just cut back on carbs by 40g a day this week, but what do u think?

well, for starters that thought process is just wrong. a gram of protein from rice is a gram of protein. If it was the only protein source for the next 6 hours then it being incomplete is an issue, but you understand what "complete" means? it means having all of the EAAs available. If you have a complete protein source along with an incomplete one, the aminos of the incomplete one can still be used effectively for the most part. But it probably isn't a huge difference overall.

So what stands out a little is that meal 1 is pretty high in fat for a first meal. Not necessarily a bad thing entirely, but calories are a little high for it being 5-6 hours before lifting. If it was higher in carbs and lower in fat but same overall cals it might make more sense. I'd think shifting some of the calories from that to meal 2 would make sense. so maybe go 2 or 3 whole omega 3 eggs, and 7-8 whites. Also i'd likely raise carbs a little on meal 2, seems a little light.

PWO looks good, #4 + 5 look good, I might go with a slightly smaller white potato, or something a wee bit more complex like brown rice. I'd drop the sweet potato entirely at meal 6, and add some nuts or nut butter to meal 7. almond butter goes great with cottage cheese.

So that way you end up more or less with highest carbs pre/post workout, keeping meals a little bit closer in calories to each other except right around workout.

You have to think of the day as broken roughly into time chunks from meal to meal. So for each time chunk are you taking in more calories than you'll use during that timespan? Is there enough aminos in bloodstream to build/repair muscle? Am I getting a significant insulin response other than postworkout? Am I taking in enough carbs that i haven't burned them all as activity fuel by the next time I take in carbs (Whether simple or complex)

 

[ccapone1153]

ok tomorrow im going to play around with it a little bit and see what i come up with.. thanks for the quick feedback

 

[Coachese]

that sounds pretty directed towards me. but if u say so. and to answer your question AAS wold allow people to do things while ON, but all gains would quickly be lost as soon as they came off. so my answer is no.

The first part was...the 2nd not so much. Good luck!

 

[ccapone1153]

So what stands out a little is that meal 1 is pretty high in fat for a first meal. Not necessarily a bad thing entirely, but calories are a little high for it being 5-6 hours before lifting. If it was higher in carbs and lower in fat but same overall cals it might make more sense. I'd think shifting some of the calories from that to meal 2 would make sense. so maybe go 2 or 3 whole omega 3 eggs, and 7-8 whites. Also i'd likely raise carbs a little on meal 2, seems a little light.

PWO looks good, #4 + 5 look good, I might go with a slightly smaller white potato, or something a wee bit more complex like brown rice. I'd drop the sweet potato entirely at meal 6, and add some nuts or nut butter to meal 7. almond butter goes great with cottage cheese.

So that way you end up more or less with highest carbs pre/post workout, keeping meals a little bit closer in calories to each other except right around workout.

Easy, after playing around this is what i came up with..


FOOD AMOUNT CALS FAT (g) CARBS (g) PROTIEN (g)
MEAL 1 Omega 3 eggs (L) 3 whole 210 13.5 3 18
8:00 Regular Eggs (L) 8 whites 144 1 3.4 30
Oatmeal 3 oz 318.75 6.4 57.4 10.7
Mac nut oil 1 TBSP 120 13.8
Macro Greens 1 serving 50 1 6 3g
TOTAL 793 27 58 48

MEAL 2 Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 39
10:30 Carolina brown rice 7 oz 219 2 44.9 6
TOTAL 384 0 45 39

LIFT@ 11:30 - 1230

MEAL 3 (PWO) Optimum Whey Protein 2 scoops 240 2 8 48
12:30 Bananas 8 oz ( 2) 7" 177 1 52 2
TOTAL 417 0 52 48

MEAL 4 Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 39
2:00 White Potatoe 7 oz 184 0 42 5.5
Udo's Oil 1 Tbsp 120 14 0 0
TOTAL 469 14 42 39


MEAL 5 Chicken Breast 6 oz 165 2 0 39
4:45 Carolina brown rice 4 oz 125 1.8 26 5
Extra Virgin Olive Oil 1 Tbsp 120 14 0 0
Cashews 1 oz 160 14 6 5
Brocolli
TOTAL 570 28 26 39

MEAL 6 Sirloin Steak 8 oz 485 32 0 45
7:30 Sweet Potatoe 4 oz 102 0 23 4
Brocollii
Miracle Reds 1 serving 35 1 5 1
TOTAL 587 32 23 45

Meal 7 Cottage Cheese 4 oz 88 0 6 13
10:15 Tuna Fish 2 oz 60 0 0 14
Almonds 1 oz 170 15 5 7
Total: 318 15 6 27

GRAND TOTAL 3538 116 246 285
cals fat carbs protein
Cals per: 1044 984 1140


looks better??

 

[EasyEJL]

definitely better, maybe move the macadamia oil from meal 1 to meal 2. And then just figure out where drop 200-300 calories on your off days, and you should have an easier time still adding lean mass while not adding bodyfatfat

 

[ccapone1153]

definitely better, maybe move the macadamia oil from meal 1 to meal 2. And then just figure out where drop 200-300 calories on your off days, and you should have an easier time still adding lean mass while not adding bodyfatfat

isnt it true that u wanta keep the fat intake low pre workout so that carbs get absorbed a little faster? im going to be eating 45 min - 1 hr before lifting.

 

[EasyEJL]

its not that significant of a difference in absorption, and better to try and even out calories per meal. No sense in your body choosing to store part of meal 1 as fat since it sees so many more calories in that meal than any other all day. IF you aren't carb depleted, on average you have something on the order of enough glycogen to do heavy cardio for 4-5 hours before depleting.