Post workout carbs??

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    Post workout carbs??


    I've heard so much about post workout carbs, and how "important" they are. Just wondering if you think they are necessary on a bulking cycle? And if it would or would not make a difference. Thanks for the input!

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    Definitely important and needed. I'd say to take in at least 30-50g directly after workout. Working out will use your carbs as energy so you need to refuel them so your body can use the protein you take in post-workout to build your muscles.
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    how would you recommend we took them? Just as flax or something? Or biscuits ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMTorres View Post
    I've heard so much about post workout carbs, and how "important" they are. Just wondering if you think they are necessary on a bulking cycle? And if it would or would not make a difference. Thanks for the input!
    If you're bulking I would personally add them into your post-workout nutrition.

    Carbohydrates stimulate a big release of insulin into the blood stream, which, at appropriate times (e.g. post workout) is optimal for promoting muscle growth and glycogen re-synthesis since insulin is a very anabolic hormone.

    I use carbohydrates post workout on a bulk or cut, as I feel it's necessary to create that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth regardless of whether you're in a calorie deficit or not.

    Without a quick, digesting source of carbohydrates, your opportunities to use insulin for growth dwindle as time passes.

    Quote Originally Posted by h0other
    Definitely important and needed. I'd say to take in at least 30-50g directly after workout. Working out will use your carbs as energy so you need to refuel them so your body can use the protein you take in post-workout to build your muscles.
    0.8g carbohydrates per kilogram lean bodyweight is often cited as being the optimal amount to maximise glycogen re-synthesis, stimulate insulin-mediated protein synthetic pathways and minimise possible fat gain. (Van Loon et al. 2000a)

    So for the OP, if he's at 10% bodyfat (240*0.9/2.2 = 98.2kg lean body mass)

    0.8*98.2 = 78.5g CHO postworkout.

    Quote Originally Posted by walugi
    how would you recommend we took them? Just as flax or something? Or biscuits ?
    Well for a start flaxseed is a source of fat so that's not much use! Biscuits wouldn't be optimal (again probably contain a source of fat, slowing digestion), something like dextrose, maltodextrin or even just a very ripe banana would do it.
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    Honestly, Chocolate Milk is my favorite. Good carb/protein ratio.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    Well for a start flaxseed is a source of fat so that's not much use! Biscuits wouldn't be optimal (again probably contain a source of fat, slowing digestion), something like dextrose, maltodextrin or even just a very ripe banana would do it.
    Oops the flax thing really showed how noob I am

    I did eat a banana today after my workout, along with some creatine and wpi. I also had one solitary ginger nut biscuit since i'd been craving gingerbread all day.

    Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
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    Quote Originally Posted by walugi View Post
    Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
    I don't see why not, a lot of my clients do this: jelly sweets, mars bar etc. just don't go completely crazy and have an entire cheesecake because it's your 'postworkout carbs' window
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post
    just don't go completely crazy and have an entire cheesecake because it's your 'postworkout carbs' window
    Haha, sounds good! Thanks for the chocolate milk idea! I will definitely be using that! I heard people drinking 1 gal of milk a day while on a bulking diet, is that ridiculous or what?? Oh and btw, I am NOT at 10%, thanks for the complement though. probably about 18-20%.

    Doing a bulk with Tren and Epistane in the next few days. Tonight I need to sit down and pick doses, can't wait to get everything down on paper If anybody is interested, I will be starting a log when I start it
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    No problem, thanks for serving our country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMTorres View Post
    I've heard so much about post workout carbs, and how "important" they are. Just wondering if you think they are necessary on a bulking cycle? And if it would or would not make a difference. Thanks for the input!
    They aren't as important as people make out. A lot of why people say they are important is related to a couple of studies that were done with first thing in the morning workouts, with nothing eaten since the prior night. In that particular case they got better protein uptake with carbs taken with the protein. But if you have a decent preworkout meal, the carbs postworkout won't have that much effect. But overall if you are bulking so long as you don't go totally haywire with what you take in carbwise theres nothing wrong with it either. So if you have a 6 egg white 1 whole egg omelet with lowfat cheese and a cup of brown rice and some orange juice preworkout, what you eat postworkout matters a bit less
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMTorres View Post
    I've heard so much about post workout carbs, and how "important" they are. Just wondering if you think they are necessary on a bulking cycle? And if it would or would not make a difference. Thanks for the input!
    I would say definitely. Elevated glycogen levels that you get from taking in the right carbs help with nutrient absorption. That includes protein, BCAA's, glutamine, things you take to recover after training. I use Glyco-Maize by Optimum Nutrition, like 1 heaping scoop (about 40g) with my post-workout protein shake. It has the fast absorbing carbs and also the slower absorbing ones. It's pretty cheap too haha. It's also good for energy after your workout if you train in the mornings. Some say to space your post workout protein and carbs by 20 min or so, I take mine together though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0other View Post
    Definitely important and needed. I'd say to take in at least 30-50g directly after workout. Working out will use your carbs as energy so you need to refuel them so your body can use the protein you take in post-workout to build your muscles.
    your body will almost never use protein as a fuel source. truth is that your body has to be really depleted of glycogen to go after anything but carbs and its reserves.....fat. now intake of carbs will prevent catabolism, which will breakdown muscle for fuel....i think thats what you meant
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    They aren't as important as people make out. A lot of why people say they are important is related to a couple of studies that were done with first thing in the morning workouts, with nothing eaten since the prior night. In that particular case they got better protein uptake with carbs taken with the protein. But if you have a decent preworkout meal, the carbs postworkout won't have that much effect. But overall if you are bulking so long as you don't go totally haywire with what you take in carbwise theres nothing wrong with it either. So if you have a 6 egg white 1 whole egg omelet with lowfat cheese and a cup of brown rice and some orange juice preworkout, what you eat postworkout matters a bit less
    i wouldnt have agreed with you until just recently when a bodybuilder at my gym who is an absolute genius when it comes to nutrition told me that as long as you are eating consistently throughout the day a simple bananna as well as some all natural honey would be enough to replenish glycogen stores. what do you think about this?
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    If you primarily do strength training, you don't deplete that much glycogen in the course of a 1 hour workout that you don't make it up over the rest of the day just eating some amount of carbs along with your meals. Even if you are doing a 1 hour workout and 30 min of cardio afterwards you still arent running your glycogen reserves dry.

    If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    If you primarily do strength training, you don't deplete that much glycogen in the course of a 1 hour workout that you don't make it up over the rest of the day just eating some amount of carbs along with your meals. Even if you are doing a 1 hour workout and 30 min of cardio afterwards you still arent running your glycogen reserves dry.

    If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
    so the honey and bananna would provide around 25-30g carbs and you believe this would be sufficient to replenish stores?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rah22491 View Post
    so the honey and bananna would provide around 25-30g carbs and you believe this would be sufficient to replenish stores?
    it depends on what kind of training your doing. 1 hour of lifting? yes. 4 hours swiming, 1 hour lifting.....probably not. most here are general lifters, like myself and do not need a crap load of carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rah22491 View Post
    so the honey and bananna would provide around 25-30g carbs and you believe this would be sufficient to replenish stores?
    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    it depends on what kind of training your doing. 1 hour of lifting? yes. 4 hours swiming, 1 hour lifting.....probably not. most here are general lifters, like myself and do not need a crap load of carbs.
    for sure, particularly considering that it won't be the only carbs you take in during the next 24 hours. Even if you took in no other carbs it would be pretty close. I don't make any effort to have post workout carbs, just have some moderate amount of carbs with each meal
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
    Nah, not if he were a real man, like I am. I'd do a 110 mile round trip and refuel by eating the molten frame of my bicycle

    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    most here are general lifters, like myself and do not need a crap load of carbs.
    True, especially looking at the guys in keto. I did a stint of no carb eating (except 1 day a week) and I felt fine.

    Although, keep in mind that this is for bulking, so maybe a little more then is strictly necessary might do him some good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by walugi View Post
    Nah, not if he were a real man, like I am. I'd do a 110 mile round trip and refuel by eating the molten frame of my bicycle
    LMAO......thx man, you made my morning.
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    he's training for an upcoming Ironman

    An Ironman Triathlon is one of a series of long-distance triathlon races organised by the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) consisting of a 2.4 miles (3.86 km) swim, a 112 miles (180.25 km) bike and a marathon (26 miles 385 yards, 42.195 km) run, raced in that order and without a break.
    Freakin crazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    he's training for an upcoming Ironman



    Freakin crazy.
    my heart just exploded reading that
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    Quote Originally Posted by walugi View Post
    Oops the flax thing really showed how noob I am

    I did eat a banana today after my workout, along with some creatine and wpi. I also had one solitary ginger nut biscuit since i'd been craving gingerbread all day.

    Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
    post workout is prob one of the better times to "cheat", but optimally you want to avoid fructose, sucrose, and fats.

    fructose replenishes mainly liver glycogen. sucrose is half glucose half fructose so it's half as effective at replenishing muscle glycogen.

    moreover, since it s replenishes liver glycogen, it's low glycemic. The bump in blood sugar doesn't occur like a normal carbohydrate, so you don't get the benefit of an insulin spike.

    now some people are pretty OCD about pwo carbs as you have the dextrose maltodextrin people, the waxy maize, then even the vitargo purists. I've tried all except the overly expensive vitargo, and I don't see any better gains than what I do now: 70 grams of carbs from rice chex (3 cups)

    i have an insatiable appetite, so i figure why drink a bunch of carbs, i'll eat something that is high glycemic, replenishes muscle glycogen, and tastes good.
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    CARBS AT NIGHT????


    I get done with most of my workouts at around 9pm. I go to bed around 12....I realize that i will probably use up all of my carbs that i eat directly after a good lift, but i am always very conscious not to eat carbs at night within a few hours of me going to bed. I do however drink my protein shake and take in about 15-20g carbs from that. Is this a good idea or am i just OCD? I seriously feel that way sometimes, I don't want to touch carbs AT ALL at night.

    carbs at night....any thoughts?
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    Just keep them minimal and if you do eat them, make sure they are complex. You have the right mindset regarding them at night though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkunks View Post
    I get done with most of my workouts at around 9pm. I go to bed around 12....I realize that i will probably use up all of my carbs that i eat directly after a good lift, but i am always very conscious not to eat carbs at night within a few hours of me going to bed. I do however drink my protein shake and take in about 15-20g carbs from that. Is this a good idea or am i just OCD? I seriously feel that way sometimes, I don't want to touch carbs AT ALL at night.

    carbs at night....any thoughts?
    15 to 20 after a W/O? you'll be fine.....that's not a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0other View Post
    Definitely important and needed. I'd say to take in at least 30-50g directly after workout. Working out will use your carbs as energy so you need to refuel them so your body can use the protein you take in post-workout to build your muscles.
    A perfect example of passing on a faitytail without ever checking. If you came across as study that proves that you need carbs to utilize proteins in PWO, please post it. In the mean while here is a study proving the opposite:

    A study in 2007 compared muscle protein synthesis brought about by three various concoctions of hydrolyzed protein(.3g/kg) by itself or the same amount of protein with a low amount of carbohydrate(.15g/kg) or a high amount of carbohydrate(.6g/kg). Ten health fit males were used and underwent a resistance trained protocol. Subjects ingested a standardized meal prior to testing and logged their dietary intake for 48h prior. Following exercise, subjects than received their drinks every 30mins, to reach the .3k/kg of hydrolyzed protein per hour. The outcome showed, there was NO difference in muscle protein synthesis between the groups. The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”
    There are a couple key points that should be made about this study. One is, that unlike some other post-workout studies, higher more real world relevant amounts of protein were used .3g/kg, which would be 27grams for a 90kg(198lbs) man. Even in the carb groups, that had much higher insulin levels, muscle protein synthesis was not increased. The protein used, was NOT a regular intact whey protein,it was the highly hydrolyzed casein protein, peptopro™ . This protein contains 70-80% rapidly absorbed di-and tripeptides. Di-and tripeptides have been shown to increase insulin and this small increase in insulin could have been all that is needed to enhance protein synthesis, without the need of carbohydrates. This is just a speculation though and was not stated in the research. Lastly, the results of this study, should not be carried over to regular intact whey protein at this time, as mentioned before, di-and tripeptides behave differently than regular intact whey.

    Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.
    Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.

    Summary:
    The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”

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    Bananas seem like potatoes to me, such a heavy fruit. I try to avoid those. When I was on keto diet, the only carb i used after workout was watermelon, it's highly glycemic but it's the only fruit along w/regular melon that you can eat as carbs after a workout and it absorbs quick and fills your carb ratio w/out any heavy effect or water retention.
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    good reading
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    How many grams of protein can you take at one time after working out so that you do not waste it? I am currently taking about 40-50 grams each time I drink a protein shake. Does this make sense or should I be drinking 25g shakes and space them out in twice the time?
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    define waste... if its whey, 30g or so is about max convertible to aminos and usable for nitrogen retention every 3 hrs. if its a blend like casein + whey or milk + whey a bit longer so you could have more in the 1 meal, probably even less if you are not chemically enhanced. But you still get caloric value out of the extra, your body will turn it into glucose for energy
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkunks View Post
    How many grams of protein can you take at one time after working out so that you do not waste it? I am currently taking about 40-50 grams each time I drink a protein shake.
    Thats fine.

    they say your body can absorb up to 40 grams in a sitting, but it all depends on lean body mass. just do this take ur weight and ur bodyfat find out ur lean body mass (weight - fat weight) times that by 2. that is how many grams of protein u should take in a day. then divide that number by 6 and that is how many grams of protein per meal. keep it nice and simple, dont over think it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKStrength View Post


    0.8g carbohydrates per kilogram lean bodyweight is often cited as being the optimal amount to maximise glycogen re-synthesis, stimulate insulin-mediated protein synthetic pathways and minimise possible fat gain. (Van Loon et al. 2000a)

    So for the OP, if he's at 10% bodyfat (240*0.9/2.2 = 98.2kg lean body mass)

    0.8*98.2 = 78.5g CHO postworkout.



    your post shows you have a good handle on exerercise metablism..

    I like this forumla.. where did you hear about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccapone1153 View Post
    your post shows you have a good handle on exerercise metablism..

    I like this forumla.. where did you hear about it?
    It seems to be the "norm" from what i've seen in ACJN abstracts and studies.

    Also, in your above post you state that MPS is dependent upon LBM. A study or two that i've read recently suggest that MPS is dependent on amino acid availability post exercise. Thoughts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkHalf View Post
    It seems to be the "norm" from what i've seen in ACJN abstracts and studies.

    Also, in your above post you state that MPS is dependent upon LBM. A study or two that i've read recently suggest that MPS is dependent on amino acid availability post exercise. Thoughts?
    yeah ive heard that once or twice... i just figured that was a little more technical than needed, i feel like the LBM method is fine for most... agreed?


    plus the problem with studies is that they have conflicting results. like usually you can find one disproving what another "proved" you have to find series of studies that all back up the same point for it to be valid imp
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccapone1153 View Post
    yeah ive heard that once or twice... i just figured that was a little more technical than needed, i feel like the LBM method is fine for most... agreed?


    plus the problem with studies is that they have conflicting results. like usually you can find one disproving what another "proved" you have to find series of studies that all back up the same point for it to be valid imp
    Yea that could be more technical that what people need. I just like to keep my bases covered and make sure I have plenty of aminos down before I get in my post exercise nutrition.

    And I totally agree with you on those studies. Have multiple studies that are A) valid and B) draw all the same conclusions via the scientific method is the optimal route. OR you can be a mad scientist and experiment on yourself
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    I used to mix CarbSlam with my shake and/or intra-WO blend with BCAA... However, I noticed I was taking in too many liquid meals and now for my post-WO I use a simple 30g of Oryx Goat Whey protein (or 15g Oryx Goat Whey protein and 15g ON 100% Egg protein), two cups of Malt-o-meal frosted mini spoonies cereal, one walnut, and a teaspoon of honey.

    Too few solids make it hard when it is time for #2 in the bathroom...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccapone1153 View Post
    your post shows you have a good handle on exerercise metablism..

    I like this forumla.. where did you hear about it?
    Cheers mate, I should do! Otherwise I'd be a crap sports nutritionist

    It's the formula from the reference I quoted (Van Loon et al 2000a). Most classical references (Burke, Coyle, Tarnopolsky etc.) generally quote >1.0g/kg/LBM CHO for maximal glycogen re-synthesis.

    However, considering no one knows the exact amount of CHO needed to elicit maximum protein synthesis and the fact that we're dealing with general resistance trainees and not fasted endurance cyclists (as is the case in most papers) I always like to use caution and use less CHO than is probably needed.

    As EasyEJL already put quite eloquently, you'll be consuming other meals throughout the day, so unless you're eating all your daily CHO around training (practicing a ketogenic approach to diet) or training twice daily I'd keep the CHO content of the PWO meal lower.
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    "muscle glycogen repletion is optimal when 0.7-3.0 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of bodyweight is ingested every two hours following exercise... muscle glycogen may be completely replenished w/in 24 hours, provided sufficient carbohydrate is ingested... however, if the exercise has a high eccentric component (associated w/ exercise-induced muscle damage), more time may be required to completely replenish muscle glycogen." -Friedman, J.E., P.D. Neufer, L.G. Dohm., 1991. and Stainsby, W.M., J.K. Barclay, 1970.

    this is the NSCA's protocol for post-exercise muscle glycogen restoration. just some food for thought.

    btw, thinking that you can replenish muscle glycogen stores in one sitting pwo is just plain wrong.
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    care to explain the anabolic benefit to glycogen being 100% replenished? so far as I can see it has the downside that once you hit 100% any insulin responses you get will be shuttling significant amount of carbs to fat cells.
  

  
 

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