Post workout carbs??
- 05-11-2009, 02:10 AM
- 05-11-2009, 02:31 AM
Definitely important and needed. I'd say to take in at least 30-50g directly after workout. Working out will use your carbs as energy so you need to refuel them so your body can use the protein you take in post-workout to build your muscles.
- 05-11-2009, 02:48 AM
05-11-2009, 03:13 AM
Carbohydrates stimulate a big release of insulin into the blood stream, which, at appropriate times (e.g. post workout) is optimal for promoting muscle growth and glycogen re-synthesis since insulin is a very anabolic hormone.
I use carbohydrates post workout on a bulk or cut, as I feel it's necessary to create that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth regardless of whether you're in a calorie deficit or not.
Without a quick, digesting source of carbohydrates, your opportunities to use insulin for growth dwindle as time passes.
0.8g carbohydrates per kilogram lean bodyweight is often cited as being the optimal amount to maximise glycogen re-synthesis, stimulate insulin-mediated protein synthetic pathways and minimise possible fat gain. (Van Loon et al. 2000a)Originally Posted by h0other
So for the OP, if he's at 10% bodyfat (240*0.9/2.2 = 98.2kg lean body mass)
0.8*98.2 = 78.5g CHO postworkout.
Well for a start flaxseed is a source of fat so that's not much use! Biscuits wouldn't be optimal (again probably contain a source of fat, slowing digestion), something like dextrose, maltodextrin or even just a very ripe banana would do it.Originally Posted by walugi
05-11-2009, 03:16 AM
05-11-2009, 09:02 AM
I did eat a banana today after my workout, along with some creatine and wpi. I also had one solitary ginger nut biscuit since i'd been craving gingerbread all day.
Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
05-11-2009, 10:18 AM
05-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Doing a bulk with Tren and Epistane in the next few days. Tonight I need to sit down and pick doses, can't wait to get everything down on paper If anybody is interested, I will be starting a log when I start it
05-11-2009, 03:46 PM
05-11-2009, 04:06 PM
05-11-2009, 04:10 PM
05-11-2009, 04:38 PM
05-11-2009, 05:16 PM
05-11-2009, 05:20 PM
If you primarily do strength training, you don't deplete that much glycogen in the course of a 1 hour workout that you don't make it up over the rest of the day just eating some amount of carbs along with your meals. Even if you are doing a 1 hour workout and 30 min of cardio afterwards you still arent running your glycogen reserves dry.
If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
05-11-2009, 05:32 PM
05-11-2009, 05:37 PM
05-11-2009, 06:49 PM
05-11-2009, 09:58 PM
Although, keep in mind that this is for bulking, so maybe a little more then is strictly necessary might do him some good.
05-12-2009, 06:50 AM
05-12-2009, 08:31 AM
he's training for an upcoming Ironman
Freakin crazy.An Ironman Triathlon is one of a series of long-distance triathlon races organised by the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) consisting of a 2.4 miles (3.86 km) swim, a 112 miles (180.25 km) bike and a marathon (26 miles 385 yards, 42.195 km) run, raced in that order and without a break.
05-12-2009, 09:01 AM
05-12-2009, 06:23 PM
fructose replenishes mainly liver glycogen. sucrose is half glucose half fructose so it's half as effective at replenishing muscle glycogen.
moreover, since it s replenishes liver glycogen, it's low glycemic. The bump in blood sugar doesn't occur like a normal carbohydrate, so you don't get the benefit of an insulin spike.
now some people are pretty OCD about pwo carbs as you have the dextrose maltodextrin people, the waxy maize, then even the vitargo purists. I've tried all except the overly expensive vitargo, and I don't see any better gains than what I do now: 70 grams of carbs from rice chex (3 cups)
i have an insatiable appetite, so i figure why drink a bunch of carbs, i'll eat something that is high glycemic, replenishes muscle glycogen, and tastes good.
05-14-2009, 02:50 AM
CARBS AT NIGHT????
I get done with most of my workouts at around 9pm. I go to bed around 12....I realize that i will probably use up all of my carbs that i eat directly after a good lift, but i am always very conscious not to eat carbs at night within a few hours of me going to bed. I do however drink my protein shake and take in about 15-20g carbs from that. Is this a good idea or am i just OCD? I seriously feel that way sometimes, I don't want to touch carbs AT ALL at night.
carbs at night....any thoughts?
05-14-2009, 04:33 AM
Just keep them minimal and if you do eat them, make sure they are complex. You have the right mindset regarding them at night though.
05-14-2009, 07:01 AM
06-17-2009, 06:36 AM
A study in 2007 compared muscle protein synthesis brought about by three various concoctions of hydrolyzed protein(.3g/kg) by itself or the same amount of protein with a low amount of carbohydrate(.15g/kg) or a high amount of carbohydrate(.6g/kg). Ten health fit males were used and underwent a resistance trained protocol. Subjects ingested a standardized meal prior to testing and logged their dietary intake for 48h prior. Following exercise, subjects than received their drinks every 30mins, to reach the .3k/kg of hydrolyzed protein per hour. The outcome showed, there was NO difference in muscle protein synthesis between the groups. The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”
There are a couple key points that should be made about this study. One is, that unlike some other post-workout studies, higher more real world relevant amounts of protein were used .3g/kg, which would be 27grams for a 90kg(198lbs) man. Even in the carb groups, that had much higher insulin levels, muscle protein synthesis was not increased. The protein used, was NOT a regular intact whey protein,it was the highly hydrolyzed casein protein, peptopro™ . This protein contains 70-80% rapidly absorbed di-and tripeptides. Di-and tripeptides have been shown to increase insulin and this small increase in insulin could have been all that is needed to enhance protein synthesis, without the need of carbohydrates. This is just a speculation though and was not stated in the research. Lastly, the results of this study, should not be carried over to regular intact whey protein at this time, as mentioned before, di-and tripeptides behave differently than regular intact whey.
Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.
Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”
06-17-2009, 10:29 AM
Since we have turned to the route of studies for this thread...here are some worth reading
06-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Bananas seem like potatoes to me, such a heavy fruit. I try to avoid those. When I was on keto diet, the only carb i used after workout was watermelon, it's highly glycemic but it's the only fruit along w/regular melon that you can eat as carbs after a workout and it absorbs quick and fills your carb ratio w/out any heavy effect or water retention.
06-18-2009, 09:58 PM
06-19-2009, 02:04 AM
How many grams of protein can you take at one time after working out so that you do not waste it? I am currently taking about 40-50 grams each time I drink a protein shake. Does this make sense or should I be drinking 25g shakes and space them out in twice the time?
06-19-2009, 09:09 AM
define waste... if its whey, 30g or so is about max convertible to aminos and usable for nitrogen retention every 3 hrs. if its a blend like casein + whey or milk + whey a bit longer so you could have more in the 1 meal, probably even less if you are not chemically enhanced. But you still get caloric value out of the extra, your body will turn it into glucose for energy
06-19-2009, 09:50 AM
they say your body can absorb up to 40 grams in a sitting, but it all depends on lean body mass. just do this take ur weight and ur bodyfat find out ur lean body mass (weight - fat weight) times that by 2. that is how many grams of protein u should take in a day. then divide that number by 6 and that is how many grams of protein per meal. keep it nice and simple, dont over think it.
06-19-2009, 10:20 AM
06-19-2009, 11:41 AM
06-19-2009, 09:34 PM
plus the problem with studies is that they have conflicting results. like usually you can find one disproving what another "proved" you have to find series of studies that all back up the same point for it to be valid imp
06-19-2009, 11:37 PM
And I totally agree with you on those studies. Have multiple studies that are A) valid and B) draw all the same conclusions via the scientific method is the optimal route. OR you can be a mad scientist and experiment on yourself
06-20-2009, 11:54 AM
I used to mix CarbSlam with my shake and/or intra-WO blend with BCAA... However, I noticed I was taking in too many liquid meals and now for my post-WO I use a simple 30g of Oryx Goat Whey protein (or 15g Oryx Goat Whey protein and 15g ON 100% Egg protein), two cups of Malt-o-meal frosted mini spoonies cereal, one walnut, and a teaspoon of honey.
Too few solids make it hard when it is time for #2 in the bathroom...
06-20-2009, 11:58 AM
It's the formula from the reference I quoted (Van Loon et al 2000a). Most classical references (Burke, Coyle, Tarnopolsky etc.) generally quote >1.0g/kg/LBM CHO for maximal glycogen re-synthesis.
However, considering no one knows the exact amount of CHO needed to elicit maximum protein synthesis and the fact that we're dealing with general resistance trainees and not fasted endurance cyclists (as is the case in most papers) I always like to use caution and use less CHO than is probably needed.
As EasyEJL already put quite eloquently, you'll be consuming other meals throughout the day, so unless you're eating all your daily CHO around training (practicing a ketogenic approach to diet) or training twice daily I'd keep the CHO content of the PWO meal lower.
06-21-2009, 01:40 AM
"muscle glycogen repletion is optimal when 0.7-3.0 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of bodyweight is ingested every two hours following exercise... muscle glycogen may be completely replenished w/in 24 hours, provided sufficient carbohydrate is ingested... however, if the exercise has a high eccentric component (associated w/ exercise-induced muscle damage), more time may be required to completely replenish muscle glycogen." -Friedman, J.E., P.D. Neufer, L.G. Dohm., 1991. and Stainsby, W.M., J.K. Barclay, 1970.
this is the NSCA's protocol for post-exercise muscle glycogen restoration. just some food for thought.
btw, thinking that you can replenish muscle glycogen stores in one sitting pwo is just plain wrong.
06-21-2009, 10:32 AM
care to explain the anabolic benefit to glycogen being 100% replenished? so far as I can see it has the downside that once you hit 100% any insulin responses you get will be shuttling significant amount of carbs to fat cells.
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