Post workout carbs??
- Thread starter AMTorres
- Start date
UKStrength
Guest
If you're bulking I would personally add them into your post-workout nutrition.
Carbohydrates stimulate a big release of insulin into the blood stream, which, at appropriate times (e.g. post workout) is optimal for promoting muscle growth and glycogen re-synthesis since insulin is a very anabolic hormone.
I use carbohydrates post workout on a bulk or cut, as I feel it's necessary to create that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth regardless of whether you're in a calorie deficit or not.
Without a quick, digesting source of carbohydrates, your opportunities to use insulin for growth dwindle as time passes.
h0other said:
0.8g carbohydrates per kilogram lean bodyweight is often cited as being the optimal amount to maximise glycogen re-synthesis, stimulate insulin-mediated protein synthetic pathways and minimise possible fat gain. (Van Loon et al. 2000a)
So for the OP, if he's at 10% bodyfat (240*0.9/2.2 = 98.2kg lean body mass)
0.8*98.2 = 78.5g CHO postworkout.
walugi said:
Well for a start flaxseed is a source of fat so that's not much use!
Biscuits wouldn't be optimal (again probably contain a source of fat, slowing digestion), something like dextrose, maltodextrin or even just a very ripe banana would do it.
walugi
Member
Well for a start flaxseed is a source of fat so that's not much use!
Oops the flax thing really showed how noob I am
I did eat a banana today after my workout, along with some creatine and wpi. I also had one solitary ginger nut biscuit since i'd been craving gingerbread all day.
Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
UKStrength
Guest
I don't see why not, a lot of my clients do this: jelly sweets, mars bar etc. just don't go completely crazy and have an entire cheesecake because it's your 'postworkout carbs' window
AMTorres
Active member
just don't go completely crazy and have an entire cheesecake because it's your 'postworkout carbs' window
Haha, sounds good! Thanks for the chocolate milk idea! I will definitely be using that! I heard people drinking 1 gal of milk a day while on a bulking diet, is that ridiculous or what?? Oh and btw, I am NOT at 10%, thanks for the complement though. probably about 18-20%.
Doing a bulk with Tren and Epistane in the next few days. Tonight I need to sit down and pick doses, can't wait to get everything down on paper
If anybody is interested, I will be starting a log when I start it 
EasyEJL
Never enough
They aren't as important as people make out. A lot of why people say they are important is related to a couple of studies that were done with first thing in the morning workouts, with nothing eaten since the prior night. In that particular case they got better protein uptake with carbs taken with the protein. But if you have a decent preworkout meal, the carbs postworkout won't have that much effect. But overall if you are bulking so long as you don't go totally haywire with what you take in carbwise theres nothing wrong with it either. So if you have a 6 egg white 1 whole egg omelet with lowfat cheese and a cup of brown rice and some orange juice preworkout, what you eat postworkout matters a bit less
fenderman
New member
I would say definitely. Elevated glycogen levels that you get from taking in the right carbs help with nutrient absorption. That includes protein, BCAA's, glutamine, things you take to recover after training. I use Glyco-Maize by Optimum Nutrition, like 1 heaping scoop (about 40g) with my post-workout protein shake. It has the fast absorbing carbs and also the slower absorbing ones. It's pretty cheap too haha. It's also good for energy after your workout if you train in the mornings. Some say to space your post workout protein and carbs by 20 min or so, I take mine together though.
lennoxchi
Well-known member
your body will almost never use protein as a fuel source. truth is that your body has to be really depleted of glycogen to go after anything but carbs and its reserves.....fat. now intake of carbs will prevent catabolism, which will breakdown muscle for fuel....i think thats what you meant
Rah22491
Member
They aren't as important as people make out. A lot of why people say they are important is related to a couple of studies that were done with first thing in the morning workouts, with nothing eaten since the prior night. In that particular case they got better protein uptake with carbs taken with the protein. But if you have a decent preworkout meal, the carbs postworkout won't have that much effect. But overall if you are bulking so long as you don't go totally haywire with what you take in carbwise theres nothing wrong with it either. So if you have a 6 egg white 1 whole egg omelet with lowfat cheese and a cup of brown rice and some orange juice preworkout, what you eat postworkout matters a bit less
i wouldnt have agreed with you until just recently when a bodybuilder at my gym who is an absolute genius when it comes to nutrition told me that as long as you are eating consistently throughout the day a simple bananna as well as some all natural honey would be enough to replenish glycogen stores. what do you think about this?
EasyEJL
Never enough
If you primarily do strength training, you don't deplete that much glycogen in the course of a 1 hour workout that you don't make it up over the rest of the day just eating some amount of carbs along with your meals. Even if you are doing a 1 hour workout and 30 min of cardio afterwards you still arent running your glycogen reserves dry.
If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
Rah22491
Member
If you primarily do strength training, you don't deplete that much glycogen in the course of a 1 hour workout that you don't make it up over the rest of the day just eating some amount of carbs along with your meals. Even if you are doing a 1 hour workout and 30 min of cardio afterwards you still arent running your glycogen reserves dry.
If you are a marathon runner, triathlon, iron man, etc competitor its a bit different. I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
so the honey and bananna would provide around 25-30g carbs and you believe this would be sufficient to replenish stores?
lennoxchi
Well-known member
it depends on what kind of training your doing. 1 hour of lifting? yes. 4 hours swiming, 1 hour lifting.....probably not. most here are general lifters, like myself and do not need a crap load of carbs.
EasyEJL
Never enough
for sure, particularly considering that it won't be the only carbs you take in during the next 24 hours. Even if you took in no other carbs it would be pretty close. I don't make any effort to have post workout carbs, just have some moderate amount of carbs with each meal
walugi
Member
I know someone who every saturday does 55 mile bike rides (round trip) as part of his training..... You'd need some carbs when you are done with that
Nah, not if he were a real man, like I am. I'd do a 110 mile round trip and refuel by eating the molten frame of my bicycle
True, especially looking at the guys in keto. I did a stint of no carb eating (except 1 day a week) and I felt fine.
Although, keep in mind that this is for bulking, so maybe a little more then is strictly necessary might do him some good.
lennoxchi
Well-known member
Nah, not if he were a real man, like I am. I'd do a 110 mile round trip and refuel by eating the molten frame of my bicycle
LMAO......thx man, you made my morning.:006::thanks:
lennoxchi
Well-known member
my heart just exploded reading that
pinchharmonic
Member
Oops the flax thing really showed how noob I am
I did eat a banana today after my workout, along with some creatine and wpi. I also had one solitary ginger nut biscuit since i'd been craving gingerbread all day.
Can't we use the pwo carbs to sneak in something a little naughtier? Of course you'd have to keep the fat down so it doesn't mess with your protein absorbtion
post workout is prob one of the better times to "cheat", but optimally you want to avoid fructose, sucrose, and fats.
fructose replenishes mainly liver glycogen. sucrose is half glucose half fructose so it's half as effective at replenishing muscle glycogen.
moreover, since it s replenishes liver glycogen, it's low glycemic. The bump in blood sugar doesn't occur like a normal carbohydrate, so you don't get the benefit of an insulin spike.
now some people are pretty OCD about pwo carbs as you have the dextrose maltodextrin people, the waxy maize, then even the vitargo purists. I've tried all except the overly expensive vitargo, and I don't see any better gains than what I do now: 70 grams of carbs from rice chex (3 cups)
i have an insatiable appetite, so i figure why drink a bunch of carbs, i'll eat something that is high glycemic, replenishes muscle glycogen, and tastes good.
dkunks
New member
CARBS AT NIGHT????
I get done with most of my workouts at around 9pm. I go to bed around 12....I realize that i will probably use up all of my carbs that i eat directly after a good lift, but i am always very conscious not to eat carbs at night within a few hours of me going to bed. I do however drink my protein shake and take in about 15-20g carbs from that. Is this a good idea or am i just OCD? I seriously feel that way sometimes, I don't want to touch carbs AT ALL at night.
carbs at night....any thoughts?
I get done with most of my workouts at around 9pm. I go to bed around 12....I realize that i will probably use up all of my carbs that i eat directly after a good lift, but i am always very conscious not to eat carbs at night within a few hours of me going to bed. I do however drink my protein shake and take in about 15-20g carbs from that. Is this a good idea or am i just OCD? I seriously feel that way sometimes, I don't want to touch carbs AT ALL at night.
carbs at night....any thoughts?
lennoxchi
Well-known member
15 to 20 after a W/O? you'll be fine.....that's not a lot
Dragov
New member
A perfect example of passing on a faitytail without ever checking. If you came across as study that proves that you need carbs to utilize proteins in PWO, please post it. In the mean while here is a study proving the opposite:
A study in 2007 compared muscle protein synthesis brought about by three various concoctions of hydrolyzed protein(.3g/kg) by itself or the same amount of protein with a low amount of carbohydrate(.15g/kg) or a high amount of carbohydrate(.6g/kg). Ten health fit males were used and underwent a resistance trained protocol. Subjects ingested a standardized meal prior to testing and logged their dietary intake for 48h prior. Following exercise, subjects than received their drinks every 30mins, to reach the .3k/kg of hydrolyzed protein per hour. The outcome showed, there was NO difference in muscle protein synthesis between the groups. The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”
There are a couple key points that should be made about this study. One is, that unlike some other post-workout studies, higher more real world relevant amounts of protein were used .3g/kg, which would be 27grams for a 90kg(198lbs) man. Even in the carb groups, that had much higher insulin levels, muscle protein synthesis was not increased. The protein used, was NOT a regular intact whey protein,it was the highly hydrolyzed casein protein, peptopro™ . This protein contains 70-80% rapidly absorbed di-and tripeptides. Di-and tripeptides have been shown to increase insulin and this small increase in insulin could have been all that is needed to enhance protein synthesis, without the need of carbohydrates. This is just a speculation though and was not stated in the research. Lastly, the results of this study, should not be carried over to regular intact whey protein at this time, as mentioned before, di-and tripeptides behave differently than regular intact whey.
Koopman R, Beelen M, Stellingwerff T, Pennings B, Saris WH, Kies AK, Kuipers H, van Loon LJ.
Coingestion of carbohydrate with protein does not further augment postexercise muscle protein synthesis.
Summary:
The researchers stated in conclusion “As such, our data indicate that carbohydrate coingestion is not required to maximize the postexercise muscle protein synthetic response when ample protein is being administered”
:wave2:
TheDarkHalf
Well-known member
Enjoy!
Since we have turned to the route of studies for this thread...here are some worth reading
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Since we have turned to the route of studies for this thread...here are some worth reading
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killfat
New member
Bananas seem like potatoes to me, such a heavy fruit. I try to avoid those. When I was on keto diet, the only carb i used after workout was watermelon, it's highly glycemic but it's the only fruit along w/regular melon that you can eat as carbs after a workout and it absorbs quick and fills your carb ratio w/out any heavy effect or water retention.
LiftedSierra
New member
good reading
EasyEJL
Never enough
define waste... if its whey, 30g or so is about max convertible to aminos and usable for nitrogen retention every 3 hrs. if its a blend like casein + whey or milk + whey a bit longer so you could have more in the 1 meal, probably even less if you are not chemically enhanced. But you still get caloric value out of the extra, your body will turn it into glucose for energy
ccapone1153
Member
Thats fine.
they say your body can absorb up to 40 grams in a sitting, but it all depends on lean body mass. just do this take ur weight and ur bodyfat find out ur lean body mass (weight - fat weight) times that by 2. that is how many grams of protein u should take in a day. then divide that number by 6 and that is how many grams of protein per meal. keep it nice and simple, dont over think it.
ccapone1153
Member
your post shows you have a good handle on exerercise metablism..
I like this forumla.. where did you hear about it?
TheDarkHalf
Well-known member
It seems to be the "norm" from what i've seen in ACJN abstracts and studies.
Also, in your above post you state that MPS is dependent upon LBM. A study or two that i've read recently suggest that MPS is dependent on amino acid availability post exercise. Thoughts?
ccapone1153
Member
yeah ive heard that once or twice... i just figured that was a little more technical than needed, i feel like the LBM method is fine for most... agreed?
plus the problem with studies is that they have conflicting results. like usually you can find one disproving what another "proved" you have to find series of studies that all back up the same point for it to be valid imp
TheDarkHalf
Well-known member
Yea that could be more technical that what people need. I just like to keep my bases covered and make sure I have plenty of aminos down before I get in my post exercise nutrition.
And I totally agree with you on those studies. Have multiple studies that are A) valid and B) draw all the same conclusions via the scientific method is the optimal route. OR you can be a mad scientist and experiment on yourself :firedevil:
silverSurfer
Well-known member
I used to mix CarbSlam with my shake and/or intra-WO blend with BCAA... However, I noticed I was taking in too many liquid meals and now for my post-WO I use a simple 30g of Oryx Goat Whey protein (or 15g Oryx Goat Whey protein and 15g ON 100% Egg protein), two cups of Malt-o-meal frosted mini spoonies cereal, one walnut, and a teaspoon of honey.
Too few solids make it hard when it is time for #2 in the bathroom...
Too few solids make it hard when it is time for #2 in the bathroom...
UKStrength
Guest
Cheers mate, I should do! Otherwise I'd be a crap sports nutritionist
It's the formula from the reference I quoted (Van Loon et al 2000a). Most classical references (Burke, Coyle, Tarnopolsky etc.) generally quote >1.0g/kg/LBM CHO for maximal glycogen re-synthesis.
However, considering no one knows the exact amount of CHO needed to elicit maximum protein synthesis and the fact that we're dealing with general resistance trainees and not fasted endurance cyclists (as is the case in most papers) I always like to use caution and use less CHO than is probably needed.
As EasyEJL already put quite eloquently, you'll be consuming other meals throughout the day, so unless you're eating all your daily CHO around training (practicing a ketogenic approach to diet) or training twice daily I'd keep the CHO content of the PWO meal lower.
time lord
New member
"muscle glycogen repletion is optimal when 0.7-3.0 grams of carbohydrate per kilogram of bodyweight is ingested every two hours following exercise... muscle glycogen may be completely replenished w/in 24 hours, provided sufficient carbohydrate is ingested... however, if the exercise has a high eccentric component (associated w/ exercise-induced muscle damage), more time may be required to completely replenish muscle glycogen." -Friedman, J.E., P.D. Neufer, L.G. Dohm., 1991. and Stainsby, W.M., J.K. Barclay, 1970.
this is the NSCA's protocol for post-exercise muscle glycogen restoration. just some food for thought.
btw, thinking that you can replenish muscle glycogen stores in one sitting pwo is just plain wrong.
this is the NSCA's protocol for post-exercise muscle glycogen restoration. just some food for thought.
btw, thinking that you can replenish muscle glycogen stores in one sitting pwo is just plain wrong.
time lord
New member
it's a performance based issue. i myself workout three times a day 5 days of the week. morning cardio, midday martial arts, evening weights. without a constant refueling throughout the day i would be constantly drained and performance in all areas would suffer.
this isn't exactly for the casual lifter but is something to think about and perhaps apply for people needing complete glycogen repletion in a 24 hour timeframe for some reason or another.
ccapone1153
Member
SO how does that work? you workout? and then what amounts and at what times does your PWO nutrition consist of?
im interested in the amino acids part I don't know much about it but have been hearing alot about it, and I know that Lance Norton (a very respected natural bodybuilder) is very into the amino acid supplementation with less meals.
TheDarkHalf
Well-known member
I doubt you'll be 100% replenished unless you are housing some serious PWO carbs. Also dependent on how depleted you are and what kind of training you're doing.
ccapone1153
Member
I remember learning that glycogen stores are full ON AVERAGE @ 200 gram of carbs a day... does that sound about right?? im sure it depends on more specific stats but is there anyway to exactly caluclate how much carbs to restore??
becuase if there is than taking in any more than desired amount would seem to be a waste of cals that could be put to much better use.