Why you shouldn't eat breakfast

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoke dog View Post
    Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.

    isokinetics.net/advanced/musclefibertypes.htm

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle
    Oh jeez, please tell me you are kidding. At any rate, you may have missed this using your source:

    Type II fibers come in three primary sub-types, called type IIa, IIx, and IIb. Recent studies[3] show that human skeletal muscle contains type I, IIa, and IIx fibers, though confusingly, human IIx fibers used to be referred to as type IIb. Types IIa, IIx, and IIb fibers are found in skeletal muscle of other mammals (e.g., rodents and cats).
    I think you are a bit confused. Type IIx fibers used to be Type IIb and do have an intermediate oxidative capacity. So unless you have been arguing about rat muscle fibers, then you are pretty mistaken. Which makes the fact you offered to 'lay it out in layman's terms' a bit funny, I must say.

    As you can see by the source that you decided to use, Type IIx are intermediate oxidizers of FAs; while Type IIa [the important type] are high oxidizers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smoke dog View Post
    I must apologize, as i seem to have taken the information from your initial response as fact. Type 2b and type 2x are not referring to the same fiber.

    You insist that type 2b muscle fibers are intermediate utilizers of oxidative and glycolytic pathways. (This is actually true of type 2x or FOG fibers)... Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.

    isokinetics.net/advanced/musclefibertypes.htm

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

    It appears that we may have been talking about two different things. In which case some of this discussion becomes irrelevant.
    Allow me to help you get this fiber issue straightened out; using a much better source than Wikipedia:

    Muscle Physiology

    First, notice the nomenclature used:

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    As you can see, the proper nomenclature is Type IIx. Now, in discussing the irrelevant nature of Type IIx fibers:

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    As you can also see, Type IIa fibers [having a high oxidative capacity] come to almost universally dominant in trained individuals. What I stated previously:

    You have a point in terms of power training [i.e., 1-3 rep training, long rests, and very acute bouts of training] but have absolutely no point in regards to a more aesthetically-tuned training regime which incorporates more than Type IIx fibers. Bodybuilding, to increase sarcoplasmic fluid capacity, does not predominantly use Type IIx fiber type. As a result of consistent bouts of resistance training [multiple weeks in a row], Type IIa fiber activation takes precedent over Type IIx! The role of Type IIx as the power fiber had been misunderstood for some time: In very acute [see: completely untrained individuals forced to complete an arduous task] Type IIx is the power fiber; however, in trained individuals [see: the vast majority of us on this site] Type IIa fibers come to dominate:

    In fact, Sharon et al (1991), Adams et al (1993) and other studies display a proportionate decrease in Type IIx fibers with long bouts of resistance training [12 weeks and over]. Training of the type most people here utilize does not demand Type IIb fiber activation as you suggest! In Sharon et al's study, the decrease in Type IIx fibers was from 16% to 0.9%. As a result, I am not sure your point was well made!
    If you wish to continue this discussion, you have a bit of sorting to do. My mistake in this conversation was assuming you knew what you were speaking about when, respectfully, you do not!
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    I thank you for your thorough and detailed responses. I am a bit disappointed in myself for basing most of my statements on the first book i picked up (NCSF advanced concepts personal training). In this book, published in 2007, it clearly designates 3 muscle types; 1,2a, and 2b, designating 2b as fast twitch/fast fatigue, highest power/largest diameter. Apparently my points of reference were flawed and i was mislead.

    Now, back to the matter at hand. Fasted workouts...

    Most trained individuals have a sufficient amount of glycogen stored in their muscles and liver for a relatively short bout of fasted resistance training. The depletion of muscle glycogen occurs at a considerably higher rate during anaerobic metabolism vs aerobic.

    Once your muscles become glycogen depleted, the next level of energy is your body fat stores. The utilization of fat for energy (lipolysis) is a process to which breaks down triglycerides into glycerol and three fatty acid chains. Then in order to turn the fatty acid chains into usable units of muscle energy they must go through another process called gluconeogenesis. These process for utilizing body fat during high intensity strength training are not nearly as immediate as Glycogenolysis, ATP, or Creatine Phosphate synthesis.

    What i propose is that when preforming fasted state strength training, allow yourself longer rest periods between sets, and keep your workouts to <60 minutes. This seems like a logical and effective balance.

    Yet a more traditional method may be used in a similar way. Prioritize your workout so that you are doing higher weight compound exercises first, higher rep isolated movements second, and finish with cardio. In this pretty traditional sequence you are utilizing nearly all of your immediate muscle glycogen stores with strength as the priority. Then your bodies next energy source, fat, will be burned almost exclusively and very efficiently by your extremely vascular and mitochondrial rich type 1 muscle fibers during you post weight training cardio session.

    Personally, fasted morning cardio is as far as i will delve into intentionally fasted exercising. I have had first hand experiences with fasted strength training during summer training for football. I noticed increased perspiration, slightly decreased muscular endurance, and MUCH faster fatigue during heavy lifting. The running was not greatly effected, but i was so past hungry after 2+ hours of starved activity that i was in a totally hypoglycemic state which brought headaches, nausea, and fatigue. Obviously this is a rather extreme example and is not a valid comparison to <60 minute gym workouts
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    Quote Originally Posted by smoke dog View Post
    I thank you for your thorough and detailed responses. I am a bit disappointed in myself for basing most of my statements on the first book i picked up (NCSF advanced concepts personal training). In this book, published in 2007, it clearly designates 3 muscle types; 1,2a, and 2b, designating 2b as fast twitch/fast fatigue, highest power/largest diameter. Apparently my points of reference were flawed and i was mislead.
    Maybe a lesson for a more humble approach in the future?

    Most trained individuals have a sufficient amount of glycogen stored in their muscles and liver for a relatively short bout of fasted resistance training. The depletion of muscle glycogen occurs at a considerably higher rate during anaerobic metabolism vs aerobic.
    Yes. And?

    Once your muscles become glycogen depleted, the next level of energy is your body fat stores. The utilization of fat for energy (lipolysis) is a process to which breaks down triglycerides into glycerol and three fatty acid chains. Then in order to turn the fatty acid chains into usable units of muscle energy they must go through another process called gluconeogenesis. These process for utilizing body fat during high intensity strength training are not nearly as immediate as Glycogenolysis, ATP, or Creatine Phosphate synthesis.
    You are missing how the body switches between oxidative substrates in times of immediate glucose [see: not glycogen, but glucose] depravation [see: Ketosis]. The hydroylzation of intramuscular triglyceride stores and subsequent mitochondrial B-Oxidation can become the primary oxidative energy mechanism for anaerobic metabolism; as I stated before.

    Also, you are terribly confused, and need to cease stating your inconsistencies and falsehoods as absolute fact! Only glycerol becomes part of the gluconeogenesis and glycolysis pathway; once separated from the glycerol molecule, fatty acids are beta-oxidized [dehydrogenated-hydrogenated-dehydrogenated] into acetyl-CoA in order to enter into the TCA/Krebs cycle. Anabolic Pump is particularly useful in this sense as it inhibits the carboxylation of acetyl-CoA into malonyl-CoA [key inhibitor of CPT-1, the rate-limiting enzyme for B-Oxidation], and also catalyzes the conversion by upregulating levels of MCD [malonyl-CoA-decarboxylase]: Necessarily increasing energy stores in a stated of fasted training.

    Yet a more traditional method may be used in a similar way. Prioritize your workout so that you are doing higher weight compound exercises first, higher rep isolated movements second, and finish with cardio. In this pretty traditional sequence you are utilizing nearly all of your immediate muscle glycogen stores with strength as the priority. Then your bodies next energy source, fat, will be burned almost exclusively and very efficiently by your extremely vascular and mitochondrial rich type 1 muscle fibers during you post weight training cardio session.
    That is fine. I never said fasted training was the epitome of training; merely that it was plausible and effective.

    Personally, fasted morning cardio is as far as i will delve into intentionally fasted exercising. I have had first hand experiences with fasted strength training during summer training for football. I noticed increased perspiration, slightly decreased muscular endurance, and MUCH faster fatigue during heavy lifting. The running was not greatly effected, but i was so past hungry after 2+ hours of starved activity that i was in a totally hypoglycemic state which brought headaches, nausea, and fatigue. Obviously this is a rather extreme example and is not a valid comparison to <60 minute gym workouts
    You had this entire discussion not knowing how the body switches between oxidative substrates for energy; not knowing the nomenclature and oxidative capacity of muscle fiber types; and having never tried what I was suggesting. You are a piece of work!
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    Agree wholeheartedly. My daily energy is much better if I eat light or just use meal replacements early in the day.
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    oh my god all this hurts my brain... i am more confused now then i ever have been lol
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    Yo mullet, in all honesty, i am very impressed with this kind of protocol and all its scientific evidence. I have a question myself and it is not based on extensive theory or science but rather in what i have experienced in this kind of situation.
    Training first thing am i feel somewhat in tune to go train just like that after a good night's sleep. I trully am not hungry at all and all i can chug is some drink (usually some bcaa and jacked is my choice personally) HOwever, too tend to feel kinda nausea and extreme hunger past a good hour of workout with weights. My question is, what is the scientific reasoning behind this phenomenon? What i mean is in relation to exercise, muscle catabolism, fat loss, etc you know all that good stuff that matter to us.

    I wonder if harm or good is being done here. My instinctive logic is that although the body may be whining for energy in the form of some food, i am sure that the body is better than that and in my opinion is just playing me games while actually metabolically working the way you have described, is that correct??
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat
    Why You Shouldn't Eat Breakfast...Again | TheIFLife - Simple Fat Loss, Muscle, Health and Longevity

    Why You Shouldn’t Eat Breakfast…Again
    May 21, 2008

    Photo by hoveringdog
    So when you see that stack above….what’s the first thing that comes to mind? Well they are “whole wheat” so it must be healthy. Ha! You know what I think of? Going into a coma and sleeping for hours after I eat it. I imagine huge brain fog and needing a pot of coffee to stay awake for the day. I picture getting nothing really done but taking all day to do it. Breakfast….the illusion for health and weight loss as sold by the general public. Think of the name….”Break” Fast…..you break the fast…..well if I am doing IF…I don’t want to break the fast just now. But how will I survive? Will I lose all my muscle by skipping one meal? Will my metabolism pack up it’s bags and leave? I mean….without breakfast how will I ever get anything done all day…I need energy right? Sound familiar?
    While we are talking about it, I came across this great read from Ori Hofmekler (author of the warrior diet). It actually goes very nicely with the Why Workout Fasted post and the Why Stress is Making You Sick and Fat post. Here’s the article (seen here):
    When you wake-up, your body is already in an intense detox mode, clearing itself of endotoxins and digestive waste from the past evening meal.

    During the morning hours, when digestion is fully completed (while you are on an empty stomach), a primal survival mechanism, known as fight or flight reaction to stress, is triggered, maximizing your body’s capacity to generate energy, be alert, resist fatigue and resist stress.

    This highly geared survival mode is primarily dominated by part of the autonomic nervous system known as the SNS (sympathetic nervous system). At that state, the body is in its most energy-producing phase and that’s when most energy comes from fat burning. All that happens when you do not eat the typical morning meal.

    If however you follow what “normal guys” do and eat your morning bagel and cereal and egg & bacon, you’ll most likely shut down the above energy producing system.

    The SNS and its fight or flight mechanism will be substantially suppressed. Instead, your morning meal will trigger an antagonistic part of the automatic nervous system known as the PSNS (Para sympathetic nervous system), which makes you sleepy, slow and less resilient to fatigue and stress.

    Instead of spending energy and burning fat, your body will be more geared towards storing energy and gaining fat. Under this state, detox would be inhibited. The overall metabolic stress would increase with toxins accumulating in the liver, giving the body another substantial reason to gain fat. (Fat tissues serve as a biological storage for toxins)

    The overall suppressing effects of morning meals, can lead to energy crashes during the daily (working) hours, often with chronic cravings for pick-up foods, sweets, coffee and tobacco. Eating at the wrong time, would severely interrupt the body’s ability to be in tune with the circadian clock. The human body has never adapted to such interruptions. We are primarily pre-programmed to rotate between the two autonomic nervous system parts: the daily SNS and the nightly PSNS.

    The SNS regulates alertness and action during the day, while PSNS regulates relaxation, digestion and sleep during the nightly hours. Any interruption in this primal daily cycle, may lead into sleepiness during the day followed by sleeping disorders at night.

    Morning meals must be carefully designed not to suppress the SNS and its highly energetic state. Minimizing morning food intake to fruits, veggie soup or small amounts of fresh light protein foods, such as poached or boiled eggs, plain yogurt, or white cheese, will maintain the body in an undereating phase, while promoting the SNS with its energy producing properties.

    *Note: Athletes who exercise in the morning should turn breakfast into a post-exercise recovery meal. Such meals should consist of small amounts of fresh protein plus carbs such as yogurt and banana, eggs plus a bowl of oatmeal, or cottage cheese with berries.

    An insulin spike is necessary for effectively finalizing the anabolic actions of GH and IGF1 after exercise. Nonetheless, after the initial recovery meal, it’s highly recommended to maintain the body in an undereating phase by minimizing daily carb intake in the following meals. Applying small protein meals (minimum carbs) every couple of hours will keep sustaining the SNS during the daily hours while providing amino acids for protein synthesis in the muscle tissues, promoting a long lasting anabolic effect after exercise.

    In conclusion, breakfast isn’t the most important meal of the day. The most important meals are post-exercise recovery meals. Saying that, for a WARRIOR every meal is a recovery meal helping to recuperate from either nutritional stress (undereating) or physical stress (exercise). It’s when you eat that makes what you eat matter.

    Interesting stuff. One type of IF I do not recommend is what is known as Ramadan fasting, in which you eat when you wake, fast during light hours and then eat at night. (this is a Muslim practice done for a month) But during that month of Ramadan, there are also many reports of increased daytime sleepiness, children falling asleep at school, more mental “fogginess” and increased amount of motor vehicle accidents during this observance. Could it be in part to a large meal in the AM and it’s response on our system? I personally have never had so much mental clarity and consistent energy as when I decided to do IF daily and skip morning meals….and have never looked back. People are so paranoid nowadays that they will starve themselves if they skip breakfast or it will crush their metabolism….that is so untrue…as your metabolism requires many many days of low intake to even start to slow down. To think one meal can cause your metabolism to come to a screeching hault or all your muscle will be destroyed, is science based on comic book research (or just reading too many bodybuilding and fitness magazines…which are owned by supplement companies who want you to eat 6x a day and buy all their shakes and bars). Having breakfast is only hailed as the weight loss king because some people may just end up over eating later on from not being able to handle a little hunger and think they are wasting away…..in the end it’s still total calories in a day…whether 3 meals or 6.
    izza:

    Good read CC. I honestly hate being hungry; Recently ive been doing research and realize it's not that bad from what I've been reading. I do have some headaches, mood swings, & hunger pains. So usually when I have that I try and eat. Guess I'll try and push through them a tad bit better.
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    Life isn't worth living without my morning oatmeal and blueberries
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    Quote Originally Posted by howwedo107
    Life isn't worth living without my morning oatmeal and blueberries
    Sometimes I try to eat a lot due to not knowing when I'm going to get a chance to get food in.
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    I eat one meal a day in the evening. I eat all I want ... even to a point I am stuffed and in pain sometimes. LOL. However, I do limit my carbs to no more than 100g p/day (usually around 60 most days). I do snack during the day sometimes, but not on carbs... usually pork rinds or plain peanut butter. I have lost 100 pounds and AM building muscle, not losing. I have tons of energy!
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    Breakfast is the most important meal. Idk how anyone can do without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Do you know how the glycolytic/gluconeogenic pathway operates in reference to resistance training? That is an honest question, by the way; no disrespect intended.

    I ask because 'hypoglycaemia' is a bit of a misplaced term here. Also, the GIndex is a bit outdated, CF! I dislike using tools like that, as they are terribly inaccurate, but: The Insulin Index is a better indicator of what we really want to know from the GI. At any rate, who is prescribing utilizing High II foods after a fast?

    I think what is being misunderstood here is the role of FA oxidation in response to training. I think most of you would be plenty surprised at how little the body truly needs glucose to function. For [most likely] the first 185, 000 years of our existence we fed off of animal fat and protein. There is a reason why our bodies have such a high FA Oxidative capacity!

    We were initially meant to consume protein and fat; have you not ever wondered why we are so predisposed to glucose-related diseases? What do you feel the incidence rate if for Impaired Fatty Acid synthesis is? Hint: Nada!
    we were gatherer's before we were hunters. Genetically we are made not to eat mainly meat, just like all other primates. The skill of hunting and fire gave us the availability to eat meat.
  

  
 

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