Why you shouldn't eat breakfast
- 01-04-2009, 11:30 AM
- 01-04-2009, 11:50 AM
- 01-04-2009, 11:57 AM
01-04-2009, 12:08 PM
Now, with that being said, Type IIx fiber oxidative capacity is INTERMEDIATE, not low, as you stated; leading us to believe that a combination approach to exercise is most efficacious. If we simply ate to feed our Type IIx we would have no endurance; i.e., those of us who lift for >5 minutes to build mass should not take your advice.
Also, could you quantify why utilizing the body's oxidative capacity is inefficient for building mass? You have a point in terms of power training [i.e., 1-3 rep training, long rests, and very acute bouts of training] but have absolutely no point in regards to a more aesthetically-tuned training regime which incorporates more than Type IIx fibers. Bodybuilding, to increase sarcoplasmic fluid capacity, does not predominantly use Type IIx fiber type. As a result of consistent bouts of resistance training [multiple weeks in a row], Type IIa fiber activation takes precedent over Type IIx! The role of Type IIx as the power fiber had been misunderstood for some time: In very acute [see: completely untrained individuals forced to complete an arduous task] Type IIx is the power fiber; however, in trained individuals [see: the vast majority of us on this site] Type IIa fibers come to dominate:
In fact, Sharon et al (1991), Adams et al (1993) and other studies display a proportionate decrease in Type IIx fibers with long bouts of resistance training [12 weeks and over]. Training of the type most people here utilize does not demand Type IIb fiber activation as you suggest! In Sharon et al's study, the decrease in Type IIx fibers was from 16% to 0.9%. As a result, I am not sure your point was well made!
As well, the glycolytic pathway is not immediate; unless your diet is horrid you will have glycogen stored from the previous day[s].
01-04-2009, 12:22 PM
I.e., You make a scathing criticism for fasted training assuming several things:
a) Fiber phenotype activation is the only factor in regulating myofibrillar hypertrophy. In fact, neural adaptation and acetylcholine activation are just as important. Two things not affected by carbohydrate metabolism.
b) That the interplay between fiber type activation and an increase in [FA] oxidative capacity has no accumulative relationship for muscle growth. To increase relative performance we must achieve both hypertrophy and increased oxidative capacity.
c) That Type IIx fiber types are the only fiber types which result in an increase in protein activation factors.
d) That Type IIx fiber types are the most important for resistance training - they are not!
If anybody read your post they would have most definitely picked up some practical information! However, and without being rude, it does not pertain to this particular due to its inadequate scope of analysis. Anabolism [particularly of the type most of those reading this are interested in - i.e., increasing mass] is a far more diverse subject than fiber type!
01-04-2009, 01:48 PM
01-04-2009, 01:54 PM
01-04-2009, 02:03 PM
01-04-2009, 02:04 PM
01-04-2009, 02:13 PM
Hmm, I have no idea really. That is a bit like asking, "Where did you learn to workout?" I mean, you could say "I started here", or "this person first showed me...." but you couldn't really summate what you know in a single place!where can i learn much of what your saying?
01-04-2009, 02:16 PM
01-04-2009, 02:20 PM
For some more introductory reading [less Philosophical]:
Foucault's: Discipline and Punishment, and History of Sexuality.
Nietzche's: Will to Power
Marx's: 1844 Manuscripts; particularly Private Property and Communism and Private Property and Capitalism.
01-04-2009, 02:21 PM
01-04-2009, 02:23 PM
01-04-2009, 03:13 PM
Crazyfool: I highly recommend the book Understanding Nutrition as a good book that goes over in depth the macro nutrients as well as how the body reacts to them. It really has everything you need to know unless you've taken college courses but this book is, I'm sure going to teach you a lot as it did me.
01-04-2009, 04:08 PM
01-04-2009, 04:15 PM
I'm not getting into this debate either because some of this is over my head as well. I mean I do have a good understanding, but there are some things that have been said that have lost me. I'm just gonna follow along and absorb.
I didn't know what I was about to start when I posted this thread. Hahaha
ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE
Strongest On The Market
RECOVERBRO: Est. Post #3222
01-04-2009, 04:24 PM
01-04-2009, 05:07 PM
Here's more talk and info on nutrition I posted a while back. Check it.
Fuel Talk Pt 1...Though I'd Share This
ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE
Strongest On The Market
RECOVERBRO: Est. Post #3222
01-04-2009, 05:47 PM
01-04-2009, 08:05 PM
01-04-2009, 11:09 PM
Mr. Mulletsoldier, it would appear that you are a quite meticulous and thorough examiner of ones logical fallacies. Unfortunately you indulged in a long winded, yet valid, response which attempted to correct points which were already made(albeit hastily summarized).
Yes Type 2B(IIx) muscle fibers are classified as intermediate utilizers of both glycolytic and oxidative pathways. As I stated this in my initial post.
I see how you may have assumed a few potentially false assumption that i may have appeared to make in my post. Yet again you have skipped right over what was actually said, and made certain criticisms based on what i should have more thoroughly explained. I never stated that Type 2B muscle fibers had the highest potential for hypertrophy, nor did i state any further assumptions of this particular fibers role.
To clarify; Genetic predisposition is the ultimate deciding factor of muscle type proportion and distribution. The percentage of any given type of skeletal muscle fiber is also largely influenced by its anatomical place in the body(structure tells of function). Fast twitch muscle fibers (especially 2a)have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy and strength/power output. To increase relative performance you must develop all aspects of performance (Strength, Power, Endurance, est)
I appreciate your knowledge, in depth responses, and critical thinking skills as applied to strength and fitness. But of coarse i have a couple issues with some things you have stated.
#1 Sarcoplasmic fluid is largely dependent on ones muscular glycogen stores. So, based on your statements, how exactly would one increase intramuscular fluid in a glycogen depleted state?
#2 What information are you basing your statement that "Type 2a fibers DO have a high oxidative capacity." ? Every book i have says the opposite...
Do you seriously feel that fasted strength training is an efficient way to burning fat and build strength? Based on my research i am skeptical to say the least. Although, with adequate bcaa and possibly some additional supplementation this may be realistic? What do you think? Please feel free to joust.
01-04-2009, 11:20 PM
[QUOTE=crazyfool405;1735497]glucose isnt really necessary nutrient your body can deal without it and much more effectivly IMO QUOTE]
I hope you are referring to single sugar dietary dextrose/ glucose. Glucose is extremely important for nearly every basic cellular function. It is stored in the liver and skeletal muscle tissues as glycogen. I'm sure you must have been referring to dietary simple sugars ie glucose; seeing as you are working on a degree in nutrition....
Last edited by smoke dog; 01-04-2009 at 11:21 PM. Reason: baaahh
01-05-2009, 02:25 AM
01-05-2009, 03:46 AM
I'm trying this out, to a degree, come tomorrow. If/when I wake up, I ain't eating nothing, not for at least a couple hours. Oh yeah, I may even get my workout for tomorrow in before I eat. We shall see how it goes.
Any thoughts on taking PEA during my fasted duration?
01-05-2009, 03:56 AM
smoke dog vs the mullet - battle of the titans
I am so subbed into the ensuring debate
01-05-2009, 10:05 AM
I am unsure how much more clear than a capitalized 'very' repeated three times can be. In your initial post you attempted to posit Type IIx fibers as having a low oxidative capacity. Nothing taken out of context or misinterpreted there.They are also easily fatigued and primarily use the Glycolytic and Creatine Phosphate energy channels. The oxidative capacity of this muscle is VERY VERY LOW.
No? So there is another reason why you said:I see how you may have assumed a few potentially false assumption that i may have appeared to make in my post. Yet again you have skipped right over what was actually said, and made certain criticisms based on what i should have more thoroughly explained. I never stated that Type 2B muscle fibers had the highest potential for hypertrophy, nor did i state any further assumptions of this particular fibers role.
Capitalized with seven exclamation marks directly preceding your explanation [and mistaken] positioning as Type IIx as the [apparently] most important fiber type in power training?FASTED STRENGTH or POWER TRAINING IS USELESS!!!!!!!!
Exactly. Which is why I was confused about your above post. You seemed to make it disregarding the importance of fiber composition re: The Oxidative Pathway.To clarify; Genetic predisposition is the ultimate deciding factor of muscle type proportion and distribution. The percentage of any given type of skeletal muscle fiber is also largely influenced by its anatomical place in the body(structure tells of function). Fast twitch muscle fibers (especially 2a)have the greatest capacity for hypertrophy and strength/power output. To increase relative performance you must develop all aspects of performance (Strength, Power, Endurance, est)
How is one glycogen depleted after a fasted-rest state? Unless you are running marathons in your sleep, Glycogenesis from the preceding day[s] will have muscle-belly stores amply supplied. We undergo nocturnal lipolysis [due to myriad hormone release, somewhat unrelated to this conversation] because of the compact nature of FFAs, and the low-demand for the mitochondrial oxidation of FAs; as opposed to the energy required for Glycolysis/Glycogenolysis, and the associated low-energy yield. Your glycogen stores will remain largely untouched overnight, and, unless your diet is horrible, will be more than adequate for the proceeding morning.#1 Sarcoplasmic fluid is largely dependent on ones muscular glycogen stores. So, based on your statements, how exactly would one increase intramuscular fluid in a glycogen depleted state?
Further, this nocturnal hydrolyzation of stored triglycerides is precisely why [despite your assertion] that resistance training in a fasted state will literally burn fat. The body merely positions FAs as the primary oxidative substrate and utilizes energy which would have been redeposited.
Odd, you must be reading them wrong. Most entry-level textbooks position Type IIa as having an intermediate-to-high oxidative capacity, with Type IIb being the lowest, and Type I being the highest [with the inverse being true of the glycolytic pathway]. Though, much of the research utilizing muscle biopsies I have seen lately suggests that Type IIa fibers have an extremely high potential for increasing their oxidative capacity with continued bouts of resistance training [the studies I posted which you ignored J/K, ]#2 What information are you basing your statement that "Type 2a fibers DO have a high oxidative capacity." ? Every book i have says the opposite...
I do, though I am unsure which research you would be referring to? As I see it, you may be caught in the stigma that the glycolytic pathway is a snap-point reaction, and that if you do not eat one hour preceding your workout your body will have no glycogen. Such is absolutely not the case. Unless you:Do you seriously feel that fasted strength training is an efficient way to burning fat and build strength? Based on my research i am skeptical to say the least. Although, with adequate bcaa and possibly some additional supplementation this may be realistic? What do you think? Please feel free to joust.
a) Have a horrid diet;
b) Ran a marathon directly preceding your rest period or;
c) Ran a marathon in your sleep.
Your glycogen stores will be adequate to increase sarcoplasmic fluid during a bout of fasted training.
This is the supplement program that I associate with my fasted training [kudos to B5150 for compiling it]:
Upon Rising: Fasted
USPLabs Recreate™ - 2 caps [norepinephrine, T3/T4, HSL increase to modulate energy metabolism; caffeine for additional FA oxidation; cactus alkaloids to suppress hunger]
USPLabs PowerFULL™ - 3 caps [tangential GH increase to further induce lipolysis; Dopamine induction to regulate the satiation pathway and increase peak torque production]
USPLabs AnabolicPump™ - 1 cap [AMPk induction with its myriad effects on regulating the lipogenic/lipolytic pathway]
+30 mins later intra w/o drink:
Xtend BCAA - 12.5g
NutraPlanet Leucine - 7g
NutraPlanet Beta Alanine - 3g
NutraPlanet Creatine Mono - 2.5g
[these all have their obvious place - no need to explain]
Immediately following last set: 1 P-Slin dumped in shake:
Immediate Post Work Out Shake:
Xtend BCAA - 12.5g
NutraPlanet Leucine - 7g
NutraPlanet Beta Alanine - 3g
NutraPlanet Creatine Mono - 2.5g
Ground oats - 90g
01-05-2009, 01:30 PM
01-05-2009, 01:34 PM
look at the link i put up a lil while back on this forum....
i personally feel much better on low carb moderate fat and high protein.
also my blood work always comes back better when on it.
read up on it,
also for people that have seizures they INDUCE ketoACIDOSIS (which is not particularly safe) to help with the seizures.
and people live with seizures their whole life and this is a treatment for it.;....
01-05-2009, 01:39 PM
Made this post a second ago which is relevant to the conversation:
Most definitely. I remember when I first introduced it, only really B5150 and Snagency picked up the program and modified it to suit their needs. Which is, of course, totally understandable; people will use what has always worked for them, and rightfully so.
However, most will have an immediate backlash to fasted training because of the accepted train of thought in weight-training: Carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs, carbs! I think many do not realize that the body's sole purpose for accumulating fatty acids into stored triglycerides is to use them as energy; and that is why our bodies are so efficient at increasing our WAT [white adipose tissue] stores. Glucose is simply the secondary mechanism for energy provision for most tissue types; this is also why excess glucose can be converted to triglycerides: Triglycerides are a more efficient and compact energy source.
Also, the oxidative phosphorylation of fatty acids has a higher energy yield than the oxidative phosphorylation of glucose, and therefore, provides more energy per gram [remembering a gram of carbohydrates has four calories while a gram of fat has nine calories]. This is due to several factors, including the catalyzing necessary to enter each into the Krebs Cycle, as well as the fact that Fatty Acids are hydrophobic [do not bind to water]. I believe when worked out in proportion, fatty acids carry six times the amount of energy as carbohydrates; and following, if the body relied on carbohydrates as its primary energy source [instead of fatty acids], your body would need to be comprised of about 34% glycogen.
Barring any serious physiological impingements, our bodies are incredibly efficient systems meant to keep energy in almost perfect homeostasis; people seem to think, for whatever reason, that the lipogenic process is somehow precluded from this system! Training fasted merely utilizes the body's own natural processes to maximize performance; it merely utilizes energy stores which would have been wasted.
01-05-2009, 01:42 PM
mullet what about someone on a keto diet (lets pretend theres no refeeds for a second...)
would fasted training be helpful for weight loss or induce muscle catabolism due to depleted glycogen stores?
i see what you are saying though with fasted training and glycogen stores,
01-05-2009, 01:43 PM
Way I see it, we evolved eating carbs (from veggies and fruits, fuck grains), so why not eat them? Will keep you out of ketosis more than likely, but the overall carb count will be low, and your overall health will surely benefit.
01-05-2009, 01:44 PM
This is why I enjoy my program: One receives the benefit of reducing adipose stores, while simultaneously placing the body in a state of preferential energy use and not risking muscle-wasting.
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
Plus, we actually evolved eating animal protein and fat predominantly! Carbohydrates were beyond a secondary food source [and both forensic anthropological evidence and the way our bodies metabolize fatty acids v., carbohydrates tell us this!]
01-05-2009, 01:50 PM
01-05-2009, 01:53 PM
01-05-2009, 01:56 PM
01-05-2009, 02:04 PM
01-05-2009, 02:30 PM
Thats not right, IF you eat correctly thru out the entire day - Low Glycemic + High Glycemic (pre-post workout&morning) Your energy is thru the roof 24/7 and so is your metabolism.
And when you dont eat your body eats itself, Look @ The celeb's.
U have to feed your body the fuel that is designed for.
And this quote "Having breakfast is only hailed as the weight loss king because some people may just end up over eating later on from not being able to handle a little hunger and think they are wasting away…..in the end it’s still total calories in a day…whether 3 meals or 6." <------ Maybe if you're trying to be a fat a**. because if you eat 3 meals of 3000cals or 6 meals of 400-500 which do you think would digest better. And you wouldnt put on ALL FAT. Plus your blood sugar, would be all f'd up and your energy levels would be terrible. Welcome to all the people who i sit down with at the gym.
01-05-2009, 03:15 PM
I must apologize, as i seem to have taken the information from your initial response as fact. Type 2b and type 2x are not referring to the same fiber.
You insist that type 2b muscle fibers are intermediate utilizers of oxidative and glycolytic pathways. (This is actually true of type 2x or FOG fibers)... Here is the most laymen links i could find to help lay this out for you.
It appears that we may have been talking about two different things. In which case some of this discussion becomes irrelevant.
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