Insulin spikes?

[PidgetBill]

So, I'm new here and have a concern I'm hoping I can get some help with. (I've done a search but didn't find quite what I"m looking for)

Insulin spikes, I've just spent the past hour reading hundreds of different opinions, some educated, some not. I'm wondering about post workout. I know the topic has been beaten to death, but it seems like low GI PWO drinks are just as good as high GI.

The reason I'm concerned is that I haven't always been in particularly good shape (in fact, a few years ago I was in very bad shape), my mother has type 2 diabetes, and my father is frighteningly overweight.

I'm 22, 5'11, 182lbs, roughly 16% BF, which I want to lower. A few years ago I was 220lbs and probably 30% BF. If it's at all relevant, my body building friend figures I'm an endomorph. From what I've read, I'm inclined to agree.

So I'm wondering what's best PWO for me? I generally don't eat high GI foods, other than the occasional chocolate by virtue of my GF working in a chocolate shop.

That same body building friend suggested waxy maize for PWO carbs, because it's sugar free, and apparently insulin isn't necessary immediately PWO. But some people say it spikes insulin just the same.

Can anyone please help me get some clarity here so I'm neither short circuiting my workouts, nor putting myself at risk?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[suncloud]

you sure you're not a mesomorph? 220 and 30% body fat makes me think you might be. either way, the only time its wise to spike insulin levels are post workout, where your body needs nutrients as fast as possible. the rest of the time, slow digesting carbs are the best way to go.

waxy maize will spike insulin levels just as sugar - all fast digesting carbs will. some people just prefer WMS instead, because of the inherent fear of simple sugars. honestly, it really doesn't matter which one you take post workout.

 

[Esox Express]

:goodpost:

some people use ground oats in the post-workout shake, I am a firm believer in that it doesn't really matter a whole lot....Maltodextrin,Dextrose,WMS,Oats..... Simple sugars won't necessarily be harmful when taken in large amounts post-workout, since it will be used to replenish the glycogen stores which have been depleted during the workout, if consumed immediately post workout.

 

[suncloud]

The reason I'm concerned is that I haven't always been in particularly good shape (in fact, a few years ago I was in very bad shape), my mother has type 2 diabetes, and my father is frighteningly overweight.

with that family history, i would try staying around 12% body fat or lower. growth hormone and test levels are related to body fat - the more you have, the less the hormonal response. with diabetes running in your family, it is very important to have test/GH levels fairly high.

 

[pinchharmonic]

with your family history in consideration you probably shouldn't be spiking your insulin. I'd say consider an amino acid supplement, before during and after workouts and then a normal meal follows.

I was heavy into dextrose maltodextrin with hydrolyzed whey protein for about 1-2 years and I don't think you get much more of an insulin spike than that (unless just dextrose). You have fast fast carbs, and a fast protein, and protein + carbs is a higher insulin response than carbs alone.

since then I've also tried waxy maize starch, cream of rice, potatoes, and even the low GI route of oatmeal.

I think all of them suffice for muscle building purposes, and if one is better than the other, it's marginally so.. There are a LOT of other areas you can focus your attention on to maximize gains, like the other 6 meals of the day, your form on your exercises, and your psychologically where you are when you train.

if you truly do plateau and you are doing everything else right, then maybe come back to the PWO shake later on. Have your fasted glucose tested, and non-fasted. If those numbers are good, maybe you can try a moderate insulin spike. If you are doing everyting else right, then you probably have great blood sugar #s.

some bits of information that may surprise you and help you determine what to do

1.) 80% of the glycogen used during intense training is from gluconeogenesis. meaning, you are fueled by amino acids being converted to glucose. and you don't even have to be on keto!
2.) a standard bodybuilding workout is not going to deplete glycogen stores the way most people are fooled into believing by reading the magazine ads. The only time people should be downing 50-100 grams of fast digesting carbs is if they are a professional athlete after a big game that needs to perform at near the same level the following day. Imagine a hockey player over several hours, and then you have an idea of glycogen depletion. I've heard of people spiking their insulin to the stratosphere after a "hard" bicep and tricep workout. gimme a break.
3.) look into glucose disposal agents. There is a huge and informative thread at musculardevelopment.com that talks about using vanadyl sulfate and niacin bound chromium to lower blood sugar post-meals. What that does is helps you stay insulin sensitive by limiting the amount of insulin your pancreas secretes, and that forces more of the nutrients into your muscle as opposed to fat. The fact is, there is a threshold for insulin spiking. Once above that spike, there the glucose is pushed into fat as well as muscles, but if below it goes all into the muscles. The disposal agents lower your overall blood sugar on their own pathway so insulin is not needed in the same amount. What's that threshold? Well you need a glucometer to find out as it is different for everyone, and that's what I've been working on myself. So these arbitrary insulin spikes are probably leading to a lot of fat gain.

 

[Esox Express]

1.) 80% of the glycogen used during intense training is from gluconeogenesis. meaning, you are fueled by amino acids being converted to glucose. and you don't even have to be on keto!

2.) a standard bodybuilding workout is not going to deplete glycogen stores the way most people are fooled into believing by reading the magazine ads. The only time people should be downing 50-100 grams of fast digesting carbs is if they are a professional athlete after a big game that needs to perform at near the same level the following day. Imagine a hockey player over several hours, and then you have an idea of glycogen depletion. I've heard of people spiking their insulin to the stratosphere after a "hard" bicep and tricep workout. gimme a break.

can you link the sources for that info?

 

[PidgetBill]

Thanks, everyone, for the advice and suggestions, it looks like ground oats might be the way to go for me, to play it safe?

Suncloud, ~10-12% is my goal. I've hovered around 190lbs & 20% BF from when I was 19 to about 8 months ago, when I started to actually take things seriously.

you sure you're not a mesomorph? 220 and 30% body fat makes me think you might be.

Not 100% sure, but from what I understand of it, endomorph describes me much more accurately.

 

[Rick28]

High gi carbs and protein post workout has been shown to reduce cortisol and aid in anabolism. Low gi carbs won't have this effect.

 

[pinchharmonic]

can you link the sources for that info?

it was on nobull radio at musculardevelopment.com

http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1335/140/

really great radio broadcast, just skip all the crap in the beginning.

 

[suncloud]

Suncloud, ~10-12% is my goal. I've hovered around 190lbs & 20% BF from when I was 19 to about 8 months ago, when I started to actually take things seriously.

once you reach those goals you can start experimenting a bit more on what works for you. testosterone has been shown in a couple studies to offset diabetes. belly fat lowers testosterone. lap band surgery has cured type 2 diabetes in many cases.

you can gather from these findings that body fat is the make/break in needing insulin shots. by that theory, lowering your body fat (which raises GH levels as well), gets your system maximized to send type 2 into remission. once you hit 10-12% you should feel a lot better. its really your choice to get down into single digits if you want to. anyways, best of luck!


looking for my links...


Health News on Yahoo! Health
The Textbook Of Bio-Identical Hormones: New Book Reveals Benefits Of Aggressive Hormone Therapy To Prevent And Treat A Wide Range Of Disorders - Life Extension
Testosterone’S Overlooked Role In The Treatment Of Diabetes In Men

 

[PidgetBill]

^Thanks for the links. I don't actually have diabetes though, I'm just at some risk for it because my mother has it, and since I've looked into it, my great grandfather on my father's side also had type 2.

 

[suncloud]

^Thanks for the links. I don't actually have diabetes though, I'm just at some risk for it because my mother has it, and since I've looked into it, my great grandfather on my father's side also had type 2.

the links just give you a rough idea of how important it is to have your natural test levels as high as possible

 

[PidgetBill]

Alright, the more I read, the more confused I get. I should mention my weight sessions don't usually last more than about 45-60min (60 is on the unusually long side).

Some people say you don't even need carbs after a short workout, let alone high GI ones, because you won't have depleted enough glycogen. Those same people say muscle won't be getting broken down, for the same reason.
Some say you don't need high GI because the whey will spike your insulin enough, but carbs are still important.
I get the feeling the low GI people are about ready to start throwing rocks at the high GI people.

It seems there's no clear answer, but I'm looking for something a little less murky in the context of my original post. Do I even need carbs PWO?

 

[Rick28]

Some people say you don't even need carbs after a short workout, let alone high GI ones, because you won't have depleted enough glycogen. Those same people say muscle won't be getting broken down, for the same reason.
Some say you don't need high GI because the whey will spike your insulin enough, but carbs are still important.
I get the feeling the low GI people are about ready to start throwing rocks at the high GI people.

Do I even need carbs PWO?

If you are working out to increase muscle size even if you are working out for a short time, muscle is still being broken down. If you're not working out hard enough to stimulate new muscle growth then what's the point?

As far as whey spiking insulin high, baloney. Protein without carbs post workout is a waste. Why? The protein will be oxidized as fuel (coverted into glucose) to replenish energy reserves. Yes you do need carbs post-workout, plain and simple. Science backs up whey and high gi carbs post workout to replenish energy, reduce cortisol and to kick start anabolism.

 

[PidgetBill]

I suppose I should clarify the muscle being broken down thing. Apparently it's thought that if you don't feed your body properly post workout, muscle will be broken down for energy.

As for my workouts, I've increased my weight nearly every workout since I started this plan about 6 weeks ago after a few months of a different plan, so there's definitely progress happening.

 

[rpen22]

As far as whey spiking insulin high, baloney.

You're disputing the fact that whey is insulinotropic?

 

[Rick28]

All I'm saying is whey ALONE post workout will not produce an anabolic effect.

 

[rpen22]

All I'm saying is whey ALONE post workout will not produce an anabolic effect.

Why is that?

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise. PMID: 15570142

Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise. PMID: 16896166

Human insulinotropic response to oral ingestion of native and hydrolysed whey protein. PMID: 18679613

That's not to say that CHO aren't beneficial or necessary PWO, however.

I tend to agree with Alan Aragon in the view that high GI CHO aren't necessarily better PWO when weight training in the fed state most of the time. As long as you're getting sufficient macros pre and post-exercise, I don't think high GI is better than low GI. Obviously there are variables that can change that, but most of them don't apply to the way we train for bodybuilding.

 

[Rick28]

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise. PMID: 15570142

Quote:
Stimulation of net muscle protein synthesis by whey protein ingestion before and after exercise. PMID: 16896166

Quote:
Human insulinotropic response to oral ingestion of native and hydrolysed whey protein. PMID: 18679613

I agree with all of this. All I'm saying is after a workout when blood sugar and glycogen is very low, consuming a whey shake without carbs will cause that protein to be used for replenishing energy (gluconeogenesis) rather than hypertrophy. Now consuming carbs with this will result in an anabolic effect.

Bottom Line;
Use carbs to replenish glycogen.
Use protein to build muscle.